Marian Teachings in East and West

[Evan]

They were told by God that they had dominion and they knew of the Tree of Life. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had no bearing on those things; it was a very specific knowledge the fruit provided, not general knowledge.

Peace and God bless!

The tree of life was in the garden, did they know of it? They had not yet eaten of it.

They probably had a very tenuous grasp of nuclear physics even though they had dominion over the U-238. Probably could not build an atomic bomb to save their lives. I would not assume that dominion over something gives one full knowledge of that thing.

What would the know of what the spiritual domain could control in the physical domain? Even now many people don’t know the limits of Satanic power on Earth, yet we have dominion over the Earth. How would they know?

 

[nickybr38]

The tree of life was in the garden, did they know of it? They had not yet eaten of it.

They probably had a very tenuous grasp of nuclear physics even though they had dominion over the U-238. Probably could not build an atomic bomb to save their lives. I would not assume that dominion over something gives one full knowledge of that thing.

What would the know of what the spiritual domain could control in the physical domain? Even now many people don’t know the limits of Satanic power on Earth, yet we have dominion over the Earth. How would they know?

I’m just going to let you take over this discussion sir. Haha. Clearly you are better equipped to argue these points. I’m going to sit back and read/enjoy. Thank you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Does the Catholic faith teach that Mary was absolutely without any actual sin during her life, including venial sin?

Yes. Doesn’t the Orthodox teach that too?

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Satan lied. Whether they ate or did not eat, they were going to die. If they ate, which they did, they died. But if they didn’t eat, then Satan was going to kill them. And that was where they went wrong. They didn’t trust that if they refused to eat and that if Satan killed them for not eating, that God would have raised them from the dead. They had no faith in God. They didn’t trust God. Sure, they disobeyed God, but at the end of the day, their lack of trust in God, that he was able to raise them from the dead. Their lack of faith, of trust in God was their fatal flaw, and what led to disobedience.

As others have said this does not sound right. Susceptibility to death was something that came with the Fall, not before.

I think the lie of Satan was more subtle than that.

God had warned Adam, not Eve directly it would seem, about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Presumably Eve had knowledge of the prohibition from her husband rather than directly from God, which brings the relationship between Christ and the Church to mind for example but in this immediate context may contribute to why Satan went after her rather than Adam: “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” If Eve has only learned of the prohibition from her husband then the serpent seems to be trying to first drive a wedge of suspicion between her and her husband before going on to suggest some kind of jealously of mankind on the part of God Himself.

In any case Eve first responds my merely clarifying the prohibition as she has heard it and Satan goes on to contradict that, saying that you will not die, and that God knows that the moment you eat of it you will become like gods, knowing good and evil. There is an element of truth to what Satan says, since eating of the fruit will not cause Adam or Eve to immediately drop dead- the death would be first a spiritual one, plus susceptibility to physical death some time in the future due to a secondary cause. The grain of truth in Satan’s lies, seen by Eve herself when she contemplated the situation and saw the tree was indeed “good for food”, was enough to sow doubt in her about her husband and/or about God. That was the moment in which she should have trusted, but did not.

When Mary, the New Eve, learned from a good angel something she did not understand, she did put her trust in God.

 

[dcointin]

Yes. Doesn’t the Orthodox teach that too?

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

My priest made a comment about this issue last week. He said that in the preparation ceremony for the Divine Liturgy (proskimede) pieces of the prosphora to be consecrated are put aside in remembrance of the saints, including the Theotokos. He said that at one point a prayer is said for the sins of those remembered, and stated that this is evidence that liturgically we do believe that she had sin.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

My priest made a comment about this issue last week. He said that in the preparation ceremony for the Divine Liturgy (proskimede) pieces of the prosphora to be consecrated are put aside in remembrance of the saints, including the Theotokos. He said that at one point a prayer is said for the sins of those remembered, and stated that this is evidence that liturgically we do believe that she had sin.

I wonder how he would then explain the fact that we refer to the Theotokos as “all holy, all pure, most highly blessed, and glorious Lady…”? I would point out to your pastor that just because Mary was without sin, does not mean that she herself was not in need of redemption, and thus intercession on our part. Even the best among us (Mary) is ultimately unworthy to stand before the dread judgment seat of God.

 

[Vico]

I hadn’t heard of that. Hawai’i also has only two Holy Days of Obligation, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and Christmas, which matches that “formula”.

When looking only at the minimum in the CCEO. I honestly was shocked to see that when I quoted the CCEO because I have understood that all of our Twelve Great Feasts are celebrated as if what in the West are “obligations”. It’s part of the difference in mentality I guess, and one that sadly we see the lacking CCEO does in this lack… but which of course various Churches sui iuris, such as my own, seem to have made up for by treating the Twelve Great Feasts as central to our sacramental liturgical year, and thus to be fully celebrated by all.

This site mentions the minimum:
smolchicago.com/holyday_info.htm

So of the Twelve Great Feasts and the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul, six are not listed as* universal* (including all Sundays) for the eastern Catholic churches deriving from the Assyrian Church of the East, the six Oriental Orthodox, Maronites, Italo-Albanian, and Eastern Orthodox.

1. September 8, the Nativity of the Theotokos
2. September 14, the Elevation of the Holy Cross
3. November 21, the Presentation of the Theotokos
4. February 2, the Presentation of Christ
5. March 25, the Annunciation
6. August 6, the Transfiguration

---

1. December 25, the Nativity of Christ (Christmas)
2. January 6, Theophany, the Baptism of Christ
3. The Sunday before Pascha, Palm Sunday (Sunday) *
4. Forty Days after Pascha, the Ascension of Christ
5. Fifty Days after Pascha, Pentecost (Sunday) *
6. August 15, the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of the Theotokos

• Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul

 

[Aelred_Minor]

My priest made a comment about this issue last week. He said that in the preparation ceremony for the Divine Liturgy (proskimede) pieces of the prosphora to be consecrated are put aside in remembrance of the saints, including the Theotokos. He said that at one point a prayer is said for the sins of those remembered, and stated that this is evidence that liturgically we do believe that she had sin.

My thought is that if I said “let’s pray for the sins of the members of the Church” this would in no way imply that Mary has sins just because she is a member of the Church. If multiple people are mentioned, Mary among them, and then you say a prayer for the sins of the members of that entire group, that doesn’t preclude the possibility that one of the members of that group does not have sins to pray for.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Susceptibility to death was something that came with the Fall, not before.

I dunno. I am slowly coming to the opinion of some (or maybe majority- I don’t know) of the Fathers that some have put forth. That is, humanity has always been susceptible to death, and it was their abiding perfect communion with the Trinity that kept them in a state of immortality.

If what I said agrees with your statement, than I apologize for misunderstanding you.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I dunno. I am slowly coming to the opinion of some (or maybe majority- I don’t know) of the Fathers that some have put forth. That is, humanity has always been susceptible to death, and it was their abiding perfect communion with the Trinity that kept them in a state of immortality.

If what I said agrees with your statement, than I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I guess it depends what you mean by “susceptible to death”. Obviously in one sense Adam and Eve were susceptible to death, in that they could do things (sin) that would subject them to death. What I mean is that prior to their fall Adam and Eve had the preternatural gifts of immortality and impassibility, though these gifts were tied to their remaining in “perfect communion with the Trinity” as you say.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I guess it depends what you mean by “susceptible to death”. Obviously in one sense Adam and Eve were susceptible to death, in that they could do things (sin) that would subject them to death. What I mean is that prior to their fall Adam and Eve had the preternatural gifts of immortality and impassibility, though these gifts were tied to their remaining in “perfect communion with the Trinity” as you say.

Ah. Gotcha. Glad to clear that up.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I really don’t think Mary resisted as much as she trusted. I think it is important to understand what Adam and Eve were faced with.

Our artwork depects them in the beaucholic garden with a snake wrapped around a tree, maybe with it’s tounge sticking out. But this is misleading. They were face to face with the tempter himself. They were face to face with Satan himself. And Satan is the father of lies.

***But the snake said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!" ***(Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied. Whether they ate or did not eat, they were going to die. If they ate, which they did, they died. But if they didn’t eat, then Satan was going to kill them. And that was where they went wrong. They didn’t trust that if they refused to eat and that if Satan killed them for not eating, that God would have raised them from the dead. They had no faith in God. They didn’t trust God. Sure, they disobeyed God, but at the end of the day, their lack of trust in God, that he was able to raise them from the dead. Their lack of faith, of trust in God was their fatal flaw, and what led to disobedience.

Before the Fall, there was no death in paradise. Adam and Eve’s disobedience introduced sin into the world, and after sin, death.

Satan does not have any power. All he can do is deceive. I don’t think Satan threatened Eve, its not the statement of “you will not die” that convinced them to eat the fruit. Satan said

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

“and you shall be as Gods” was what Satan told them that convinced them to eat the fruit. If they were threatened to eat the fruit, then they have no culpability in what they did because they did it out of fear. By today’s theology, being forced to sin is a minor (venial) sin at most.

No, Adam and Eve freely sinned because they were allured by the promise of “being like God”, even though they were already created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Ghosty]

Before the Fall, there was no death in paradise. Adam and Eve’s disobedience introduced sin into the world, and after sin, death.

Satan does not have any power. All he can do is deceive. I don’t think Satan threatened Eve, its not the statement of “you will not die” that convinced them to eat the fruit. Satan said

[bibledrb]Genesis 3:5[/bibledrb]

“and you shall be as Gods” was what Satan told them that convinced them to eat the fruit. If they were threatened to eat the fruit, then they have no culpability in what they did because they did it out of fear. By today’s theology, being forced to sin is a minor (venial) sin at most.

No, Adam and Eve freely sinned because they were allured by the promise of “being like God”, even though they were already created in the image and likeness of God.

Precisely. I want to especially emphasize that their sin was freely willed, not coerced. That is the horrifying thing about it: it was a perfectly free choice made in the Light of God’s Grace. They had no excuse, no mitigating factors, no naivete to blame, and that is why they realized that they were naked and hid themselves from God. It was a sin that shook the foundations of creation.

We should never minimize the magnitude of Adam and Eve’s sin, and when we realize the magnitude of their sin we can truly begin to appreciate the magnitude of Mary’s Fiat. There is a reason that she is more honorable than the Cherubim, and more Glorious beyond compare to the Seraphim!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Vico]

Before the Fall, there was no death in paradise. Adam and Eve’s disobedience introduced sin into the world, and after sin, death.

Satan does not have any power. All he can do is deceive. I don’t think Satan threatened Eve, its not the statement of “you will not die” that convinced them to eat the fruit. Satan said

[bibledrb]Genesis 3:5[/bibledrb]

“and you shall be as Gods” was what Satan told them that convinced them to eat the fruit. If they were threatened to eat the fruit, then they have no culpability in what they did because they did it out of fear. By today’s theology, being forced to sin is a minor (venial) sin at most.

No, Adam and Eve freely sinned because they were allured by the promise of “being like God”, even though they were already created in the image and likeness of God.

So true, they believed the truth about knowing good and evil, but also the serpentine lie that they would not die, contradicting God in Gen 2:17 "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die, and also contrary to the consequences that 3:19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

They die because the all powerful God did not want them to eat from the tree of life and live forever, after that. But it seems that they could have eaten of the tree of life before that sin.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Precisely. I want to especially emphasize that their sin was freely willed, not coerced. That is the horrifying thing about it: it was a perfectly free choice made in the Light of God’s Grace. They had no excuse, no mitigating factors, no naivete to blame, and that is why they realized that they were naked and hid themselves from God. It was a sin that shook the foundations of creation.

We should never minimize the magnitude of Adam and Eve’s sin, and when we realize the magnitude of their sin we can truly begin to appreciate the magnitude of Mary’s Fiat. There is a reason that she is more honorable than the Cherubim, and more Glorious beyond compare to the Seraphim!

Peace and God bless!

Yes,

It has always been interesting to me to hear SOME Orthodox believers explain to me that the Immaculate Conception destroys the truth and reality of free will: yet: They see no danger to free will in saying that Eve was tricked by the Serpent in the Garden.

That “trick” might have been a “trick” had God not already covered that ground for Adam. But the boundaries had been set; the law laid down, and there was no “trick” or coercion on the part of the Serpent that could have destroyed Eve’s free will to choose the good: which in this case would have been direct obedience to God.

 

[dcointin]

My thought is that if I said “let’s pray for the sins of the members of the Church” this would in no way imply that Mary has sins just because she is a member of the Church. If multiple people are mentioned, Mary among them, and then you say a prayer for the sins of the members of that entire group, that doesn’t preclude the possibility that one of the members of that group does not have sins to pray for.

If I remember correctly, and I need to ask him to clarify this, it’s when the bread set aside in commemoration of the saints are added to the chalice and he prays something like “may their sins be washed away”.

 

[dvdjs]

If I remember correctly, and I need to ask him to clarify this, it’s when the bread set aside in commemoration of the saints are added to the chalice and he prays something like “may their sins be washed away”.

I think you must be referring to this part of the liturgy:

Priest:
Save, O God, Your people and bless Your inheritance.

People:
We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us.

Priest (Returning to the holy Table, the priest transfers the portions of the Theotokos and of the saints into the holy Cup. Then he does the same for those of the living and the dead saying in a low voice):
Wash away, Lord, by Your holy Blood, the sins of all those commemorated, through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen.

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens. Let Your glory be over all the earth (3).

Priest (the priest lifts the holy Cup and says in a low voice):
Blessed is our God.

Priest:
Always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People:
Amen.

Let our mouths be filled with Your praise, Lord, that we may sing of Your glory. You have made us worthy to partake of Your holy mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, that all the day long we may meditate upon Your righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.

I would ask your priest if there is Patristic commentary an d consensus behind his idea. I am skeptical. First, there are no shortage of learned Orthodox who affirm absolutely the sinlessness of Mary - notwithstanding the rare comments to the contrary.

Second, it is a bit of a stretch to take this or any prayer for cleansing of sins of many people as a implicit declaration of the sinfulness of some particular individual in the group. This text is very weak as a proof text. It would, moverover, be very odd to think that we are asking the intercession of the Theotokos in washing away her sins.

BTW, IIRC, not all groups wait until the ablution to add the commemorative particles to the chalice.

 

[Vico]

If I remember correctly, and I need to ask him to clarify this, it’s when the bread set aside in commemoration of the saints are added to the chalice and he prays something like “may their sins be washed away”.

In the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, in the Proskomedia, the celebrant says after cutting the fifth phosphorsa, “For the blessed memory and remission of sins of the blessed founders of this holy church” when the particle is placed on the diskos.

Is that what you are thinking of?

 

[Cavaradossi]

If I remember correctly, and I need to ask him to clarify this, it’s when the bread set aside in commemoration of the saints are added to the chalice and he prays something like “may their sins be washed away”.

But we reserve a different piece of bread for the theotokos, so I don’t think that prayer really applies.

 

[Mickey]

Although the Holy orthodox Church does not subscribe to the idea that the Most Holy Theotokos was spared from the stain of ancestral sin at conception…the Church does believe that she remained sinless by her own free will throughout her life. That is why we refer to her as the great example…not the great exception.

However, there were at least a couple Holy Fathers who made comments which imply she may have committed minor sins.

I think it was St John Chrysostom and St Basil the Great.