Marian Teachings in East and West

[Elijahmaria]

Although the Holy orthodox Church does not subscribe to the idea that the Most Holy Theotokos was spared from the stain of ancestral sin at conception…the Church does believe that she remained sinless by her own free will throughout her life. That is why we refer to her as the great example…not the great exception.

However, there were at least a couple Holy Fathers who made comments which imply she may have committed minor sins.

I think it was St John Chrysostom and St Basil the Great.

This is superficially clever: not the great exception

But it is not liturgically accurate.

If you have a copy of the Mother Mary-Bishop Kallistos Festal Menaion it would be worth a trip through the Marian Feasts, the Entry into the Temple in particular, to see how exceptional the Orthodox see the Theotokos in their liturgy.

I think liturgy trumps “clever” in Orthodoxy in terms of doctrinal and catechetical truths…no?

 

[dcointin]

In the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, in the Proskomedia, the celebrant says after cutting the fifth phosphorsa, “For the blessed memory and remission of sins of the blessed founders of this holy church” when the particle is placed on the diskos.

Is that what you are thinking of?

I would really have to ask my priest again what exactly he was referring to. I’ll get back to you as soon as I can on that

Personally I see no problem with the IC, its another way of stating the same belief.

 

[dcointin]

I think you must be referring to this part of the liturgy:

I would ask your priest if there is Patristic commentary an d consensus behind his idea. I am skeptical. First, there are no shortage of learned Orthodox who affirm absolutely the sinlessness of Mary - notwithstanding the rare comments to the contrary.

Second, it is a bit of a stretch to take this or any prayer for cleansing of sins of many people as a implicit declaration of the sinfulness of some particular individual in the group. This text is very weak as a proof text. It would, moverover, be very odd to think that we are asking the intercession of the Theotokos in washing away her sins.

BTW, IIRC, not all groups wait until the ablution to add the commemorative particles to the chalice.

Yes that’s it, sorry for not reading that before posting my latest comment!

 

[Mickey]

This is superficially clever:

It is not meant to be superficial…or clever. It is a fact that we do not subscribe to the 1854 RC doctrine. And we see her as the great example of asceticism and holiness.

If you have a copy of the Mother Mary-Bishop Kallistos Festal Menaion it would be worth a trip through the Marian Feasts

I have it. And I am quite familiar with the great veneration we ascribe to the Most Holy Theotokos.

But we still don’t see her as an exception by being spared from ancestral sin (IC).

 

[dvdjs]

Although the Holy orthodox Church does not subscribe to the idea that the Most Holy Theotokos was spared from the stain of ancestral sin at conception…the Church does believe that she remained sinless by her own free will throughout her life.

1. What does Eastern Orthodox define the “stain of ancestral sin to be”? Can you give some authoritative sources on that?
2. I think that you are falling over backwards into serioius error when you assert that “she remained sinless by her own free will throughout her life”. Isn’t the idea that one can remain sinless by one’s own free will, a named heresy in the EOC?

That is why we refer to her as the great example…not the great exception.

However pithy the remark, she is certainly and obviously a great exception.

These posts of EOs reaise a question. I see such ideas very frequently from EO forumites: caution about the veneration of Mary; downplaying her role in salvation history; quibbling over the necessity of believing church teachings on Mary. These perspectives are terribly at odds with EO history, culture, and liturgy: when/where did they gain such traction?

 

[Formosus]

No one can not sin without God’s energy. This is what Baptism helps us to accomplish. It allows us to unite our wills to His, so Mary needed to receive Grace to be able to unite her will perfectly to God’s.

 

[Ghosty]

dvdjs: Not all Eastern Orthodox are willing to cut off their own legs to spite Rome or win an apologetics argument.

Some even still pray to Mary to bring them Salvation.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

What does Eastern Orthodox define the “stain of ancestral sin to be”? Can you give some authoritative sources on that?

Look it up…it is easy to find.

Isn’t the idea that one can remain sinless by one’s own free will, a named heresy in the EOC?

I’m sorry. I forgot the phrase…by the grace of God. No one can battle the passions successfully without the grace of God. But I think you already knew that.

she is certainly and obviously a great exception.

Indeed she is exceptional. But we do not believe she was an exception when it comes to ancestral sin.

caution about the veneration of Mary; downplaying her role in salvation history;

No one cautions or downplays the Most Holy Theotokos. I think you may be grandstanding a bit. We simply do not accept the 1854 RC dogma.

 

[Mickey]

Some even still pray to Mary to bring them Salvation.

She always points to Christ.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

 

[Mickey]

Not all Eastern Orthodox are willing to cut off their own legs to spite Rome or win an apologetics argument.

Of course not!

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us.

 

[Elijahmaria]

It is not meant to be superficial…or clever. It is a fact that we do not subscribe to the 1854 RC doctrine. And we see her as the great example of asceticism and holiness.
I have it. And I am quite familiar with the great veneration we ascribe to the Most Holy Theotokos.

But we still don’t see her as an exception by being spared from ancestral sin (IC).

I was pretty sure that you have the Menaion……and that you’ve used it as well. I have the Triodion and Supplement but I so dearly wish for the Festal texts. Someday…eh?

At any rate, I know that there is no specific reference to an immaculate conception, but there are references to her becoming as a person and that is the Catholic Christian understanding of conception: the moment of becoming as a person. There are references to her holiness being far more exceptional than any other human being. There are references to the ancientness of God’s intentions for her exceptional holiness.

All of these things convey the primary and fundamental message of the Immaculate Conception.

The actual teaching of the immaculate conception is quite narrow, and has to be taken with other Marian teachings which indicate that the Mother of God was fully human with a fully free will in order to be understood in its proper perspective: which is that the Mother of God was fully illumined [bore the grace of original justice] at the moment of her becoming a person, by a particular act of God’s grace.

That does not mean that she cannot be tempted; it does not mean that she cannot choose to conform herself to God’s grace. It does not set her apart from the ascetic life. In fact, her whole life was an exercise in self-emptying, by grace. If any part of our lives are self-emptying, it is also by grace. So there is NO immaculate exception in any regard except for the fact that she is: as it is told in the liturgy of her presentation into the temple, remarkable graced by God from the very moment of her becoming an individual soul, and that the holiness she bears surpasses the holiness of any other human being in the history of mankind.

I don’t mean to demean you Mickey and I am sorry I poked at your initial statement. But the idea that the immaculate conception is something strange is not born out in terms of Orthodox liturgies.

It is one of the things that we would all be blessed to not fight about.

M.

 

[Elijahmaria]

duplicate

 

[rben20]

I dunno. I am slowly coming to the opinion of some (or maybe majority- I don’t know) of the Fathers that some have put forth. That is, humanity has always been susceptible to death, and it was their abiding perfect communion with the Trinity that kept them in a state of immortality.

If what I said agrees with your statement, than I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I agree with this as well.

 

[rben20]

Can someone elaborate on the argument against the IC because of Mary’s death?

 

[Vico]

One can understand that at the conception (Maternity of the Holy Anna) of the Theotokos, she had the equivalent of baptism (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) as it was given at Pentecost. (Acts of the Apostles 2:41) The salvation (baptism) from her conception was in anticipation of what was to come.

 

[Mickey]

It is one of the things that we would all be blessed to not fight about.

Indeed Mary. Although I will never be able to accept the 1854 doctrine of Pius IX, I have debated this too many times…and it only becomes contentious. There is no doubt that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have a great love for Our Lady and we poetically venerate her endlessly.

Suffice it to say that we both honour her with love and admiration.

I will not debate it further.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Indeed Mary. Although I will never be able to accept the 1854 doctrine of Pius IX, I have debated this too many times…and it only becomes contentious. There is no doubt that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have a great love for Our Lady and we poetically venerate her endlessly.

Suffice it to say that we both honour her with love and admiration.

I will not debate it further.

…I would encourage you to continue to speak of Orthodoxy’s deep veneration of the Virgin Mother of God. One of the things that is most disturbing is the supposition that because the Orthodox do not subscribe to the dogmatic constitution of 1854 that they somehow do not have the depth of love for the Mother of God in evidence in the west. That is a deadly supposition and I will join you in its refutation whenever I have opportunity!

M.

 

[Mickey]

That is a deadly supposition and I will join you in its refutation whenever I have opportunity!

Thank you dear Mary!

In thee, O Full of Grace, all creation–both the company of Angels and the race of men–doth rejoice. O hallowed temple and spiritual paradise, boast of virgins: from thee God was incarnate, and became a child, He, our God, Who existed before the ages; for He made thy womb a throne, and He made thee more spacious than the heavens. In thee, OFull of Grace, all creation doth rejoice. Glory be to thee.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Thank you dear Mary!

In thee, O Full of Grace, all creation–both the company of Angels and the race of men–doth rejoice. O hallowed temple and spiritual paradise, boast of virgins: from thee God was incarnate, and became a child, He, our God, Who existed before the ages; for He made thy womb a throne, and He made thee more spacious than the heavens. In thee, OFull of Grace, all creation doth rejoice. Glory be to thee.

 

[mark_a]

It is my understanding that dogmas must be believed by all faithful Catholics. If I am wrong on this point, please correct me.

Dogma can’t be denied, individual Catholic belief and understanding vary greatly. Denial is quite popular these days, even among practicing Catholics.