Marian Teachings in East and West

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The Immaculate Conception is an infallibly defined dogma, binding on all Catholics. Just sayin’. 🙂
 
Are you saying that no one really believes in the Immaculate Conception? :confused:
 
CountrySteve said:
what do non Romans belive about it then :confused: how can you be Catholic and not belive everything
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A lot of denominations claim the word catholic as it simply means universal. As such, non-Roman Catholics can believe whatever they choose to believe.

What should be said is:

Binding on all members of the true Church of Jesus Christ.😉

Just sayin’
 
OchsFam said:
A lot of denominations claim the word catholic as it simply means universal. As such, non-Roman Catholics can believe whatever they choose to believe.

What should be said is:

Binding on all members of the true Church of Jesus Christ.😉

Just sayin’
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i should have said that better i meant why can byzantine catholics or whatever not believe it but why do Romans believe it and besides if it was true wouldn’t all Catholics(true followers of Christ) believe or not believe it
 
“…that the doctrine, which holds that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary at the first moment of Her conception was, by singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved from all stains of original sin, is revealed by God, and therefore to be firmly and resolutely believed by all the faithful.”

Anyone who’s attended a Byzantine Liturgy will hear far more praise than that heaped upon the immaculate, spotless, blamess, all-holy Theotokos. She’s the new Eve. She is the restoration of humanity to God. How we understand sin and the effects of sin is a little different, and our pious customs are very different, but Eastern Catholics do not reject the dogma Rome proclaimed as heretical otherwise we couldn’t be in communion with them.

"Today the pure nobility of men receives the grace of the first creation by God and thus returns to itself: and the human nature, which clings to the newly born Mother of the Beautiful One, receives back the glorious beauty, which had been dimmed by the degradation of evil, and the best and most marvelous new formation. And this new formation is truly a re-formation, and the re-formation a deification, and this restoration to the first state. -St. Andrew of Crete

O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! -St. John Damascene

God has kept this Virgin for Himself from before all ages. He chose Her from among all generation and bestowed on Her grace higher than that given to all others, making of Her, before Her wondrous childbirth, the Saint of Saints, giving Her the honours of His own house in the Holy of Holies . . . Wishing to create an image of absolute beauty and to manifest clearly to angels and to men the power of His Art, God made Mary truly beautiful… He made of Her a blend of all divine, angelic and human perfection, a sublime beauty embellishing the two worlds, rising from earth to heaven and surpassing even this latter. -St. Gregory Palamas
 
CountrySteve said:
i should have said that better i meant why can byzantine catholics or whatever not believe it but why do Romans believe it and besides if it was true wouldn’t all Catholics(true followers of Christ) believe or not believe it
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If a denomination does not believe it, they are not in communion with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So, Byzantine Catholics would believe this dogma as they are in communion with Rome while Eastern Orthodox churches (or any other denomination) who are not in communion with Rome can choose to believe it or not. Not believing in a dogma puts you outside of communion with Rome, regardless of if you claim the world catholic or not. That was my point.

That is my understanding. If this is not true, I would like to know but I would want to see something in an official document, not just a post on CAF.

God Bless.
 
OchsFam said:
If a denomination does not believe it, they are not in communion with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So, Byzantine Catholics would believe this dogma as they are in communion with Rome while Eastern Orthodox churches (or any other denomination) who are not in communion with Rome can choose to believe it or not. Not believing in a dogma puts you outside of communion with Rome, regardless of if you claim the world catholic or not. That was my point.

That is my understanding. If this is not true, I would like to know but I would want to see something in an official document, not just a post on CAF.

God Bless.
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Just to be clear this should not imply that Eastern Catholics must adhere to all the traditional Western theological constructs which generally surround the dogma and informed the way the document in which the dogma was proclaimed was worded. What is required is that they, being part of “all the faithful”, firmly and resolutely believe the dogma itself.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Binding to all Roman Catholics 😉

Just sayin’
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Of course, Truth is Truth. So the revealed fact of the IC is true. However, the expression of this truth is quite different in the Eastern Church.

Since it deals with Original Sin and the Conception of Mary, and the Eastern Church does not used the language ‘Original Sin’ it would need to be reformulated by an Eastern Theologian to express that truth in an appropriate way.

However, I don’t know what the expression of Original Sin is in Eastern Theology. I think it has something to do with a fallen state in which we are all created or something like that. I know the concept of sin is not used to describe what the Western Church calls Original Sin.
 
The Doctrine Immaculate Conception is an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church. Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic bishops, whom he had consulted between 1851–1853, promulgated the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (Latin for “Ineffable God”), which defined ex cathedra the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

It is not a doctrine of the Episcopal Church, however the ‘Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary’ is a Lesser Feast Day in the Church of England. Some Anglo-Catholics in the US do hold the Immaculate Conception as dogma.
 
Due to us not believing in the Augustinian theology of Original Sin, we do not believe the “Dogma” of the IC.

Likewise most EC’s don’t believe in Papal Infallibility, Sunday/Feast Obligations, and the Filioque. And we ordain married men to the priesthood and discourage the rosary from being prayed in church instead of our own traditional services.

Those reasons alone makes some people’s heads spin because they are unwilling to understand a different theology and consider everything the Pope declares as absolute. EC’s are called un-Catholic for keeping our own ancient beliefs, and the “John Ireland” Catholics are unaware that our ancestors were martyred for our faith and unity with them.

We should with a spirit of love and unity, discuss our differences without animosity and discomfort towards alternative viewpoints.

God Bless 🙂
 
chaldobyzantine said:
Due to us not believing in the Augustinian theology of Original Sin, we do not believe the “Dogma” of the IC.

Likewise most EC’s don’t believe in Papal Infallibility, Sunday/Feast Obligations, and the Filioque. And we ordain married men to the priesthood and discourage the rosary from being prayed in church instead of our own traditional services.

Those reasons alone makes some people’s heads spin because they are unwilling to understand a different theology and consider everything the Pope declares as absolute. EC’s are called un-Catholic for keeping our own ancient beliefs, and the “John Ireland” Catholics are unaware that our ancestors were martyred for our faith and unity with them.

We should with a spirit of love and unity, discuss our differences without animosity and discomfort towards alternative viewpoints.

God Bless 🙂
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False and many accounts. You don’t speak for the Chaldean Church -
 
chaldobyzantine said:
Due to us not believing in the Augustinian theology of Original Sin, we do not believe the “Dogma” of the IC.

Likewise most EC’s don’t believe in Papal Infallibility, Sunday/Feast Obligations, and the Filioque. And we ordain married men to the priesthood and discourage the rosary from being prayed in church instead of our own traditional services.

Those reasons alone makes some people’s heads spin because they are unwilling to understand a different theology and consider everything the Pope declares as absolute. EC’s are called un-Catholic for keeping our own ancient beliefs, and the “John Ireland” Catholics are unaware that our ancestors were martyred for our faith and unity with them.

We should with a spirit of love and unity, discuss our differences without animosity and discomfort towards alternative viewpoints.

God Bless 🙂
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Blessings to you, in the name of Jesus Christ!

This is very interesting what you say. I have never been asked to believe about Original Sin what the Orthodox say the Roman Catholics believe is Original Sin: not even when I was a Latin rite Catholic. I don’t recognize all that business about personal sin guilt as original sin. In fact I was taught it was quite something else.

Also the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is never quite what the Orthodox tell me it is either.

So, even as an Eastern Catholic, and not bound to celebrate this feast liturgically, I find that I celebrate it in prayer and in my heart because I believe it to be true.

Does that make me a lesser Eastern Catholic? Some would say yes indeed…Some do say that quite frequently.

Personally I don’t think so.
 
Elijahmaria said:
Blessings to you, in the name of Jesus Christ!

This is very interesting what you say. I have never been asked to believe about Original Sin what the Orthodox say the Roman Catholics believe is Original Sin: not even when I was a Latin rite Catholic. I don’t recognize all that business about personal sin guilt as original sin. In fact I was taught it was quite something else.

Also the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is never quite what the Orthodox tell me it is either.

So, even as an Eastern Catholic, and not bound to celebrate this feast liturgically, I find that I celebrate it in prayer and in my heart because I believe it to be true.

Does that make me a lesser Eastern Catholic? Some would say yes indeed…Some do say that quite frequently.

Personally I don’t think so.
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Your comment is confusing my friend. Are you saying you believe in the IC dogma but do not believe in the Original Sin dogma the Roman church teaches? You cannot have one without the other, so please clarify your statement.

And to my friend Chaldean Rite, I do not claim to speak for the Chaldean Catholic Church, but for my own beliefs that coincide with the beliefs of Orthodoxy practiced in the Byzantine Churches. I am Chaldean and knowledgeable in our practices and I am still a lay person part of the Church and do not intend to canonically transfer to any other church anytime soon. Just because we have been Latinized to a severe extent does not mean we cannot return to our faith as practiced by the Assyrian Church of the East as well.

God Bless 🙂
 
chaldobyzantine said:
Your comment is confusing my friend. Are you saying you believe in the IC dogma but do not believe in the Original Sin dogma the Roman church teaches? You cannot have one without the other, so please clarify your statement.
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I said it quite plainly. The Orthodox have no real and accurate understanding of the Catholic teaching of original sin. In order to understand the teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception it is necessary to have an accurate understanding of Catholic teaching concerning the “stain” of original sin: which is not quite the same thing as the consequences of original sin.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Just to be clear this should not imply that Eastern Catholics must adhere to all the traditional Western theological constructs which generally surround the dogma and informed the way the document in which the dogma was proclaimed was worded. What is required is that they, being part of “all the faithful”, firmly and resolutely believe the dogma itself.
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All the Dogma asserts is that Mary was conceived without the Stain of Original Sin, which is the absence of Grace we are all born with after the Fall.

If I were to word the teaching in “Easternese” I would say this:

The Mother of God, though suffering the physical effects of the Fall, was conceived with the Divine Life of Grace already in her soul, as is fitting to the woman who would bear Christ.

That is really all the Dogma asserts, though it is written in “Latinese”, and this belief was certainly found in the Byzantine tradition at the very least. 😃

Peace and God bless!
 
chaldobyzantine said:
Due to us not believing in the Augustinian theology of Original Sin, we do not believe the “Dogma” of the IC.

Likewise most EC’s don’t believe in Papal Infallibility, Sunday/Feast Obligations, and the Filioque. And we ordain married men to the priesthood and discourage the rosary from being prayed in church instead of our own traditional services.

Those reasons alone makes some people’s heads spin because they are unwilling to understand a different theology and consider everything the Pope declares as absolute. EC’s are called un-Catholic for keeping our own ancient beliefs, and the “John Ireland” Catholics are unaware that our ancestors were martyred for our faith and unity with them.

We should with a spirit of love and unity, discuss our differences without animosity and discomfort towards alternative viewpoints.

God Bless 🙂
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I would bet dollars to donuts that you don’t know what the “stain of Original Sin” is if you think that Byzantine Catholics don’t believe in it, as we most certainly do. We don’t use that terminology, but we don’t believe that humans are born with the Light of Grace in our souls, which is what the “stain of Original Sin” refers to: the absence of Divine Grace.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
I would bet dollars to donuts that you don’t know what the “stain of Original Sin” is if you think that Byzantine Catholics don’t believe in it, as we most certainly do. We don’t use that terminology, but we don’t believe that humans are born with the Light of Grace in our souls, which is what the “stain of Original Sin” refers to: the absence of Divine Grace.

Peace and God bless!
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Another way that appears to be acceptable east to west is to say that the ancestral sin resulted in the loss of original justice. That is expressed in the west by saying that we are all, sons and daughters of Adam, born with a darkened intellect/nous and a weakened will. Thus the need for the illumination of Baptism and the strengthening of Chrismation.
 
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