Marian Veneration in the NT

[Protestant101]

My friend stop and consider. Do you honor God when you honor Mary? I can tell you that you do not honor Jesus when you ignore or dishonor his mother. Mary is daughter of God the Father, Spouse of the Holy Spirit and Mother of the Son. She is the preeminent disciple made pure and perfect by God to bear His Son. Jesus and Mary go together from Conception, to Cana, to Cross; Mary was the example of how to be a Christian. We honor God when we honor his most perfect creature, Mary, given to us by Jesus from the cross.
God love you.
Bill

This is utterly false. Mary is not pre-eminent. That is not in the Bible anywhere.

Catholics have insisted for years that they do not “worship” Mary, yet there is much evidence to the contrary. They like to say that they “venerate” her instead; but there is no difference between the two. Consider the following:

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY OCTOBER 11, 1954

1. The Roman Pontiffs, favoring such types of popular devotion, have often crowned, either in their own persons, or through representatives, images of the Virgin Mother of God which were already outstanding by reason of public veneration.

If Mary was sinless, then her parents would have had to have been too. This means that she was no different than anybody else. Lots of people in the Bible were called “blessed.” But there’s a difference between that and being “sinless.” Worship of any human is not Christian.
%between%

 

[EphelDuath]

Catholics have insisted for years that they do not “worship” Mary, yet there is much evidence to the contrary.

This should be good. We’re “accidentally” worshiping her.

They like to say that they “venerate” her instead; but there is no difference between the two.

Oh, I understand. So when David and Israel danced and sang before the Ark of the Covenant, they weren’t really honoring it, they were worshiping it “accidentally?”

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. We honor her just as Israel honored the first Ark.

If Mary was sinless, then her parents would have had to have been too.

False. Mary was subject to Original Sin, but was removed by the power of Christ. The Immaculate Conception is miraculous, a special devotion given to Mary so that she could be the Gate of Heaven.

Lots of people in the Bible were called “blessed.”

None were called full of grace. None were called the mother of God. None were called the queen of Heaven.

 

[HailMary]

Mary is the most blessed woman to ever walk this earth.

Not even God the Father or the Holy Spirit can look at the lordly cross that Jesus Christ was crucified on and say, “flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone” as Adam once said to his wife.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If Mary was supposed to be so highly venerated, why was it not addressed more clearly by Jesus in the Gospel or in other parts of the New Testament?

Joyful_1

For the same reason as John the Baptist didn’t quote the Summa Theologiae - it wasn’t an issue at the time. Nor was the canon. Likewise much else.​

Most of the issues now taken for granted in doctrine had to wait until long after the Apostles before they could receive anything like a definite form as we know it. So it’s useless to expect Palestinian Jewish Christians to think like St. Athanasius, or to expect him or them to think like 17th-century Scholastics (Catholic or Protestant).

If we expect the NT to give us answers which could be arrived at only by the Fathers or their successors even later, we are going to miss what is in the NT, & misunderstand it seriously. NT Jewish Christianity did not have the same concerns as the Fathers, & neither group was unduly bothered about the controversies that arose long after their deaths.

IOW, doctrines and their expressions have to be looked at historically, & not as though it existed in a timeless void. There is a basis in the Bible for many Christian ideas - such as the Marian ones - but what the bases are, is not always clear: partly because the exegesis of the Bible is itself not timeless & changeless.

 

[Protestant101]

Oh, I understand. So when David and Israel danced and sang before the Ark of the Covenant, they weren’t really honoring it, they were worshiping it “accidentally?”

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. We honor her just as Israel honored the first Ark.

Mary is not the ark of the new covenant. Prove it from the Bible.

False. Mary was subject to Original Sin, but was removed by the power of Christ. The Immaculate Conception is miraculous, a special devotion given to Mary so that she could be the Gate of Heaven.

Where does the Bible tell us this?

None were called full of grace. None were called the mother of God. None were called the queen of Heaven.

The only reference in the Bible to “full of grace” is to Jesus in Jo.1:14, and there is none that says Mary was or is “the queen of heaven.”

 

[EphelDuath]

Mary is not the ark of the new covenant. Prove it from the Bible.

The Ark of the Covenant contained “a golden pot that had manna and the rod of Aaron that had blossomed and the tables of the testament” (Heb. 9:4). God was present in the Ark (Exodus 25:8). Jesus says, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35), “from Heaven” (John 6:38). John says, Jesus is the new “law given by Moses” (John 1:17). John says, Jesus is the “Word made flesh” (John 1:14). And, of course, Jesus, the Holy Son, our Lord, was present inside St. Mary’s womb (John 10:30).

St. Luke especially wrote the first two chapters of his Gospel to make Mary look like the Ark.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II

Where does the Bible tell us this? The only reference in the Bible to “full of grace” is to Jesus in Jo.1:14,

Luke 1:28. “Hail Mary, Full of Grace.” Some Bibles render it “O highly favored one,” but this is an inaccurate (and perhaps dishonest) translation; the Greek word used is kecharitomene, which is only otherwise used in, as you said, John 1:14.

and there is none that says Mary was or is “the queen of heaven.”

Apocalypse 11:19-12:1. “And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (there were no chapter divisions in the original book of Apocalypse, they were introduced in the 13th century). As the woman appears directly after the ark of the covenant, and the woman gives birth to a son who would rule all nations and be taken up to God’s throne (Apocalypse 12:5), it is logical to assume this refers to St. Mary.

 

[porthos11]

The only reference in the Bible to “full of grace” is to Jesus in Jo.1:14, and there is none that says Mary was or is “the queen of heaven.”

First of all, the Bible isn’t interpreted according to whether a term appears in it or not.

On your first point, that’s not also exactly true. Stephen was also full/filled with grace. But you fail to consider the implications of the Greek term the angel used when he greeted Mary as “kecharitomene” which is actually untranslatable into English.

On your second point, you need to study your Old Testament history and see the model. We do not pick “Queen of Heaven” out of thin air. Her Queenship is based only on Jesus’ Kingship. The angel told Mary that Jesus was going to continue the line of David’s throne. If you study the Old Testament, you will read that the Davidic kingdom had a position of Queen Mother (Heb. gebirah) and that this Queen Mother had a standing in the kingdom, and an office. God pronounced judgment on the King and Queen Mother. Asa deposed the Queen Mother for idolatry, which would not have been possible if it were a merely hereditary title.

Unless you are to deny that Jesus is King, then Mary as his mother is the equivalent of gebirah of the heavenly kingdom.

 

[zerocrossing]

Where in the world do you get that? Regarding my bold, no it doesn’t mean the same in English. When I say: “Among my friends, there are two red-heads.” It doesn’t mean that the red heads are above the others, they are just distinct in that they have red hair.

Where do I get that? The more proper question is where do you get *your *rather singular reading? The passage is not talking about your friends or two red-heads, it’s talking about all the women in the world - past, present and future. And it’s singling out one for blessing. It’s certainly not saying that all women are blessed.

But back to where on earth I get this (as in, what authority do I have to give this passage the meaning that, oh, just about everybody throughout history - including Protestants - have given it?)… Well, given that the English language is my profession - and has been for nigh unto 30 years - I kinda sorta understand the nuances of the language.

What’s funny is that this passage is not even all that nuanced. The idiom is extremely common. I’m surprised that you appear to be unacquainted with it.

 

[porthos11]

Everywhere else in the NT you see Jesus even downplaying his relationship to her referring to her as “woman” rather than “mother.” Even from the cross he called her “woman” when he directed her to John’s care.

Again, this represents a lack of understanding of ancient Semitic culture. “Woman” is a title of honor for ancient Israelites, unlike 21st-century use which uses it as a title of degradation when used in address.

By calling Mary “woman” he was not downplaying her, in fact, he was exalting her even more.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If Mary was supposed to be so highly venerated, why was it not addressed more clearly by Jesus in the Gospel or in other parts of the New Testament?

Joyful_1

Like others have shown, it is laced throughout the NT and the OT. Also, the question makes no sense unless you believe Revelation is limited to written Scripture. Which of course it is not, and that alone should prevent your friend from asking the question.

 

[HailMary]

Mary is not the ark of the new covenant. Prove it from the Bible.

The only reference in the Bible to “full of grace” is to Jesus in Jo.1:14, and there is none that says Mary was or is “the queen of heaven.”

Prove it from the bible? You mean the bible the Catholic Church wrote? Sure.

If you have a keen eye in Holy Scripture you will see just how important and glorious the Blessed Virgin Mary is.

She is the Living Ark of the Covenant. Do you know what the Ark of the Covenant meant to the choose people, the people of God? Do you know how big of a role it played in the Divine Pedagagy which God used?

The Ark had two Golden Cherubim angels, looking at each other, and spreading their wings. The Ark was central in the way God communicated to the people of Israel through Moses:

Exoodus 25:22. Thence will I give orders, and will speak to thee over the propitiatory, and from the midst of the two cherubims, which shall be upon the ark of the testimony, all things which I will command the children of Israel by thee.

I assert that Mary is the living Ark by the following passages:

2 Sam 6:1-11 and Luke 1:39-43 & Luke1:59

These verses match blow for blow summarized in the following:

1. The Ark moved from Galilee to Jerusalem (2 Sam:6:2)
   – the Blessed Virgin moved from Galilee to Jerusalem (Luke 1:39)
2. David and the Israelites made merry BEFORE the Lord ( 2 Sam 6:5)
   – St. Elizabeth made merry BEFORE the Lord (Jesus in the Womb of His dear mother) (Luke 1:41-42)
3. David confessing “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9)
   – St. Elizabeth confessing "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)
4. The ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three month ( 2 Sam 6:11)
   – Mary remained with St. Elizabeth about three months (Luke 1:56)

Therefore, the Ark of the Covenant prefigured the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The Ark contained the manna, the staff of Aaron, and the Law which were fulfilled in Jesus(Hebrews 9:4); Jesus is the Bread of Life, the Eucharist; Jesus is the staff of Aaron, the eternal High Priest; and Jesus is the Law, the Word of God.

Mary contained Jesus in her womb for 9 months. She is the only person that can look at the cross and say “flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone”.

Furthermore, in Revelations 11:19 we read the following:
“Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.”

Guess what the Sacred writer is leading into?

Revelations 12:1:
“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

God Bless

note: this is summarized VERY nicely in this website; I invite you to check it out for yourself.

The Virgin Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant:
agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

 

[Nita]

This is utterly false. Mary is not pre-eminent. That is not in the Bible anywhere.

]

But it is in the Bible. Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, calls Mary the “mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43) Maybe in your mind being recognized as the mother of God (through God’s inspiration) doesn’t make one preeminent, but it certainly does for many others.

Nita

 

[adam_in_ohio]

As to the question of Mary being conceved without sin. What did Jesus the Christ, do in those 9 months in her womb? Jesus sucked up Mary’s blood, her substance, into his divine person. Mary’s flesh fed, nurtured and protected Jesus Christ the second person of the Holy Trinity. Jesus became man from Mary.
Do your’re kids have any of your physical features? Would not Jesus also had inhearted some of Mary’s?

 

[vadermanu89]

Martin Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception or at least had some rudimentary grasp of its theological significance.

Martin Luther:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees.” (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)

It is a pity that most Protestants have departed from the teachings of their very own Fathers.

 

[surgei]

All the best texts omit blessed art thou among women.
(Vincent’s Word Studies in the Greek)

I find this odd. It is a quote and praraphrase of Judith that Luke is using to point to the davinity of Christ.

 

[SolaFide]

The only reference in the Bible to “full of grace” is to Jesus in Jo.1:14, and there is none that says Mary was or is “the queen of heaven.”

Here’s the only mention of the “queen of heaven.”

Jer 7:17 Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough,** to make cakes for the queen of heaven**; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger?" says the LORD. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?”
Jer 7:20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place–on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”

Jer 44:16 “As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you!
Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, **to burn incense to the queen of heaven **and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.
Jer 44:18 But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.”
Jer 44:19 The women also said, “**And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven **and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?”

and

Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, **to burn incense to the queen of heaven **and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’

Notice this is a false goddess! The people were incorporating the worship if this false goddess with their worship of the true Lord and it’s an abomination to God! Also notice that the prayer or worship or veneration isn’t once mentioned but God ascribed even burning incense or bringing offerings (cakes, roses, candles) is considered a form of worship to God whether you call it that or not.

And why on earth would the humble Mary of Nazareth, who describes herself as a servent of God assign to herself the name of a pagan goddess? She would NEVER do that nor would she encourage idolatry.

 

[benedictgal]

Everywhere else in the NT you see Jesus even downplaying his relationship to her referring to her as “woman” rather than “mother.” Even from the cross he called her “woman” when he directed her to John’s care.

Jesus called His Mother “woman” not out of disrespect or even in a condescending manner. In Genesis, Adam did not refer to Eve by her name. He told God, “The WOMAN whom you put here with me…”

Jesus is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve. At the foot of the cross, there was a Man, a Woman and a Tree. Jesus is the Man. Mary is the Woman. The cross is the Tree. Jesus, as the new Adam, in his pefect obedience, undid Adam’s sin. Mary, in her perfect obedience to the will of the Father, undid Eve’s sin of wanting to be divine. The tree of life is now the Cross. Just as Eve became the mother of all of the living, as noted in Genesis, now Mary, by virtue of Jesus giving her to us in the person of St. John, becomes the Mother of all who are born anew into Christ’s babptism.

If you read John’s Gospel, you will find parallells to it and Genesis. In the beginning God said let their be light. In beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the word was God. In the third Chapter of Genesis, we hear the protoevangelium where God promises that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. In the third Chapter of John’s Gospel, we read where God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son. Jesus is the fruit of the seed of Mary.

 

[SolaFide]

Jesus called His Mother “woman” not out of disrespect or even in a condescending manner. In Genesis, Adam did not refer to Eve by her name. He told God, “The WOMAN whom you put here with me…”

Jesus had at least two opportunities to elevate his mother’s position for “veneration” but didn’t. We NEVER see one prayer offered to Mary and the only references to a “queen of heaven” in the Scriptures are to a false goddess that God abhors.

The first time Jesus could’ve let his disciples know to “venerate” his mother was here:

Mar 3:31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
Mar 3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”
Mar 3:33 But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Mar 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

If she was so important why didn’t Jesus use this opportunity to let us know that?

Or here an even more appropriate time:

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
Luk 11:28 But **He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” **

Rather we see Jesus putting her maternal role into perspective, rather Jesus elevated the Word of God and God’s will.

NEVER is Mary prayed to and NEVER do the Scriptures say we are to go to Mary as our help.

 

[mercygate]

Jesus had at least two opportunities to elevate his mother’s position for “veneration” but didn’t. We NEVER see one prayer offered to Mary and the only references to a “queen of heaven” in the Scriptures are to a false goddess that God abhors.

The first time Jesus could’ve let his disciples know to “venerate” his mother was here:

Mar 3:31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
Mar 3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”
Mar 3:33 But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Mar 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

If she was so important why didn’t Jesus use this opportunity to let us know that?

Or here an even more appropriate time:

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
Luk 11:28 But **He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” **

Rather we see Jesus putting her maternal role into perspective, rather Jesus elevated the Word of God and God’s will.

NEVER is Mary prayed to and NEVER do the Scriptures say we are to go to Mary as our help.

Sola,
This painfully shopworn rant does not respond to the quote you include at the beginning of this post. Catholics, of course, know the Our Lady was definitely one of those blessed who “heard the word of God and observed it.”

 

[SolaFide]

Sola,
**This painfully shopworn rant does not respond to the quote you include at the beginning of this post. ** Catholics, of course, know the Our Lady was definitely one of those blessed who “heard the word of God and observed it.”

Shopworn but the truth and one Catholics cannot answer effectively which is why they dodge it when it’s brought up (like now)

If Jesus were concerned that his mother be “venerated” why didn’t he use these two very obvious opportunities to do that. The answer? Because he NEVER intended that she be so venerated. There is ONE advocate, and ONE mediator and ONE helper and all compassionate one in heaven: Jesus Christ!