marital crisis

[deronda]

I understand. I have been trying to think of what to say to you for advice and comfort, but it’s a very difficult situation.

That came through and I appreciate it. Thanks.

One the one hand you are not obliged to follow Catholic Teachings, but on the other hand you are called to be a partner to your husband.
It’s a real touchy issue.

Exactly. You’ve nailed it.

…so, as far as the Catholic teaching goes, it’s gonna have to be you that does the changing…and that is tough. I guess that is also why you sought out the Catholic Foum on this.
I’m sorry if this came across as a harsh statement.
I really feel for your situation.

No, you’ve been helpful. You don’t seem harsh.

Part of how we got into this mess is my H was not as orthodox when I married him as he is now. His job within the Church has influenced him to take a harder line with things he allowed wiggle room on before.

True, but from a Catholic point of view, we are not allowed to even consider stop having kids. That is a sin for Catholics.

He has said he doesn’t actively want more kids. But he would be OK with it if it happened, and I guess the surgical solution would eliminate even the remotest possiblity, which is exactly what I want and exactly what would make him too far out of line with Church teaching. To me, it is a lesser of evils thing.

I’ll pray for you and your situation and pray that inside you the feelings that are proper will be stirred for your husband and that he will respond with tenderness and love towards you.

He is always tender and loving. We have a loving relationship that includes sexual desire on his side, and completely platonic feelings on mine. I have compromised by trying to meet his needs so that he isn’t emotionally/sexually starved.

He has given up on me, though. Recently when I asked if he would go to marriage counseling he said, “I’m x years old. I only have so much emotional energy left, and I want to spend it on my kids and my work.”

 

[dulcissima]

I’m 39 and deep in midlife crisis.

OK. I’m 41, tubal ligation, and recently divorced…left my husband about two years ago.

My best advice…you’ve got a great husband and don’t be tempted to think otherwise. If you are feeling yourself awakening sexually (which is what happens at this age), I think the absolutely best thing you can do is to find out about NFP and get to know and appreciate your body. Learn this with your husband.

For some mysterious reason I have been interested in NFP recently, have been reading up on it and have been charting my last 10 cycles. I think you will really be amazed if you begin to understand how this all works and realize that this is something that you have a lot of control over. Trust me, it does not feel so great to know that you have parts of you that are missing. I think you will feel a lot more empowered by learning how NFP works. I have known women who have become pregnant after a tubal ligation. They are less effective when they are not done just after delivery. Since you are already familiar with abstaining for a period of time, I think you might be particularly well disposed to NFP, and I think it would bring you and your husband much closer together. I mean, wouldn’t it make you feel good to be able to give him this gift? That’s kind of what love really is…sacrificing for the good of the other.

 

[Nechasin]

deronda,
Your husband has a duty to try to convince you to not go through with the procedure. If you go ahead and do it against his will, he is not at fault. Even if he is intimate with you after the procedure he is not committing sin.

Having said that, Very likely, he may see you in a different light as you would have in his opinion performed an act of mutilation on yourself. We are humans with an immortal soul. God made our bodies and it is not right for us in our selfishness to mutilate them. We are not dogs and cats that should get spayed and neutered.

Please think seriously about what you are contemplating. NFP in its most conservative form can be extremely reliable and it is an alternative that should seriously be considered.

 

[rayne89]

True, but from a Catholic point of view, we are not allowed to even consider stop having kids. That is a sin for Catholics.

That is not an accurate statement. I have one child who is 12. I was advised (with second and third opinions) that another pregnancy would almost certainly be fatal for me because my heart is failing. We use and will continue to use NFP indefinitely, and we incur no sin in doing so -because there is serious reason to avoid pregnancy.

Also in a marriage where one partner refuses to follow church teaching on birthcontrol the other non-contracepting may engage in relations for the good of the marriage without incurring sin. Ofcourse the contracepting spouse is in the state of sin.In this case her husband may not use any contraception device himself but may engage in relations with his wife even if she choses to contracept as long as he in no way supports this choice.

That being said if my husband had not agreed with church teaching and chose a vasectomy (or chose to use a condom for that matter)I think that would have caused great harm to our marriage especially our intimate life. It’s not a matter of controling the other spouses body. It rejecting the gift of intimacy the way God intended. And in turn casting aside the Catholic spouses deeply held belief on the sinfulness of such a choice.

My husband is Catholic and we both believe in the teachings of the church. My life depends on the effectiveness of NFP. My husband and I enjoy an active intimate life. I would ask the OP to conside a NFP class to help her understand NFP and feel more assured in its effectiveness if emotionally at this time she can not handle more children.

My prayers to the OP and her husband.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m 39 and deep in midlife crisis.

I’m 39–I’m not having a crisis. Age is just a number…you’re as old as you look…I mean er…feel…I mean…nevermind

 

[1ke]

Deronda,

Aero has posted some things that are NOT accurate regarding Church teaching-- as Rayne has noted, one can avoid children indefinitely for a serious reason. And, your mental health is a serious reason. And, if you were to have a tubal, your DH would not sin having relations (although HE may have a mental block to deal with).

And, I also encourage you to at least learn about NFP-- knowledge is power and right now your fears are based on ignorance… ignorance in the sense of not having information or confidence. Now, that said, I don’t want NFP to become the bone you and your DH are fighting over-- you know, where you resist simply because you don’t want to give in. If you researched NFP and dertermined it to be reliable, would you consider it simply on its merits? Could you use it without feeling that you gave in and that “he wins”? Wouldn’t it be great if you could use it because you want to? There are many women who have no religious reason to use it, but who do because it’s effective, the woman is in control, and it has no side effects. You won’t know until you at least try.

With regard to the feelings you are having, I don’t know what to tell you other than, I agree with the PPs who think there may be something inside you that you are looking to fill. And, if you move on from DH and try to find someone to fill it… they might for a while but you will likely be right back where you started. Maybe you should try some individual counseling to try to find out what’s at the root. If you are coming from a healthy place, you can deal with DH much more as an equal and it may revolutionize your relationship with him.

The grass really is greener, until you get to the other side. Don’t be rash in any decision you make. Divorce is bad for children.

 

[hasikelee]

I really don’t want to bring about a train wreck…but is your husband…less than physically attractive?

The loss of sexual desire to your husband can be a natural ebb and flow, but you sound very unhappy about it, as does he. It sounds as if you have long periods of dry times.

Have you researched the depression meds? Some of them cause a strong loss of libido. Also, I don’t know if you mentioned being on birth control or not? Some forms of oral contraceptives also cause very low libido.

I think you need a :hug1: Having a partner who is affectionate, kind, good and nice is a blessing. But, sexuality in a marriage is a very good thing that should be desired and satisfied.

Whatever you do…don’t see if the grass is greener somewhere else. Try to get to the bottom of this mystery. What is missing?

There is a book, “His Needs, Her Needs” that is secular, but still sensible. www.marriagebuilders.com is the website. It might give you a good guideline for doing some soul searching. Perhaps something in the book will allow you to communicate what you feel in your heart.

Also, I read that you are not Catholic, so I understand you are not feeling obligated to follow Catholic teaching. But, please, please do some open minded research on tubal ligations. They have their own cross to bear. They also have 2-3% failure rates, which is a tricky way of saying they are only effective 97-98% of the time…even less than some higher dose birth control pills and definitely less than some methods of NFP.

 

[LittleOne1]

I would say you both have to offer something to each other. You desire a husband who is emotionally conencted to you and courts you everyday and he desires a wife that is willing to work with him in the area of family planning. I suggest you offer learning more about NFP together for the mean time just to understand what it is and the spirit of it, but that you need him to a couple’s retreat to work on your emotional needs (that may be partly affecting your ability to accept mroe children now… I do not know just offered it as a thought).
Hope that helps and may God be with you both to build your marriage on a foundation of sacrifice and deep love!

 

[deronda]

Thank you all for the information and feedback. I looked into NFP a while back but not recently. I will look into it again, but I have my doubts. One question I have is, aren’t women at their highest level of arousal just before and during ovulation? It seems backwards to abstain during the time when it is the strongest.

I really don’t want to bring about a train wreck…but is your husband…less than physically attractive?

My husband is not my physical type. Although he has a very handsome face, he is slight of build and very thin and has gotten more so as he gets older.

The loss of sexual desire to your husband can be a natural ebb and flow, but you sound very unhappy about it, as does he. It sounds as if you have long periods of dry times.

It would be dishonest to call it a loss of sexual desire, since it was barely ever there. We had passion in the physical realm for about the first six weeks we were dating. That is it. By the time we married, the situation was grim between us physically. There was clearly something very wrong with the chemistry (at least on my side), but we ignored it and moved ahead with the marriage anyway. We were so compatible in other areas, I don’t think either of us wanted to recognize the elephant in the room.

Someone else mentioned maybe this is just a problem I have with sex and intimacy. That is what my husband has told me about myself continously since the early months of our relationship. I believed his analysis, but now I’m questioning it.

Have you researched the depression meds? Some of them cause a strong loss of libido. Also, I don’t know if you mentioned being on birth control or not? Some forms of oral contraceptives also cause very low libido.

The med I’m taking is bupropion, which is not an SSRI and does not typically affect libido. I have only been on it for six months. No bc pills.

Thanks for the support and book recommendations I will look into them.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

I will have been married for 10 years this year. Marriage does have its ups and downs. Sometimes I have to choose to love my husband or children, even though I don’t feel like loving them. I might be exhausted or DH might really annoy me. I might look like ***p , so might DH.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Please do be very careful of your desire for relations with other men. This will not only devestate your marriage but also your children. You really need to curb that desire immediately. For your sake as well as that of your family. Don’t go down that road.

Love is a choice. It’s not some ‘feeling’.

When you choose (or learn) how to love your husband then he will be the only one you will ever desire.

If you want this to happen then your best chance is Retrouvaille. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

retrouvaille.org

 

[AeroChunky]

Hi Guys.

My appologies for miss-representing the facts.

I was implying about people without good medical or serious reasons to stop having kids, but I stand corrrected nonetheless.

Thanks for calling me on it!

 

[SingtotheLord]

May I also suggest Theology of the Body for Beginners.
At present I am attending a video class on Theology of the Body (it just started) and I am already amazed at what I have learned and my understanding is growing.

Please pray about and for your marriage, yourself, your spouse, your children, try to find this book, take an NFP class (check out Couple to Couple League on the web and find a teaching couple in your area), pray some more…and I will pray for you too.

May God be with you in your struggles, may Jesus carry your burden, and may the Holy Spirit guide you through this!

SingtotheLord

 

[deronda]

I appreciate everyone’s prayers and recommendations, thanks.

 

[dranzal]

Wow. I looked at this and saw one of my own failings right off. You see it in quite a few posts on various topics. Because we have a drive for sex, we make the pleasure of it out to be oh-so-important. Really, it’s not. Allowing ourselves to be consumed by that one pathetic priority is awful. That is how my early years of faith went–I ignored any Catholic teaching that went against the lure of sex. There is a very, very good chance that your attitude toward the Catholic faith and your husband comes almost entirely from your desire for more pleasure. I’m sorry, but more pleasure just leads to getting buried under stronger desires–it’s a downward spiral into depression.

It sounds like your priority is on checking off every entry on your list of desires IN THIS LIFETIME. The truth is, NOTHING in this life is going to fulfill us completely anyway. Pursuing them makes you a slave to them–that alone can propel somebody into deep depression. Look how many of the rich are on meds and in therapy.

Our feelings of emptiness are there to help us seek God. Otherwise we would never look beyond our contented earthly lives. It was only in realizing this that I was able to weaken this cycle in myself, and suddenly the life I already had looked much, much better. I have everything I need and far, far more so long as I’m not chasing down every single thing I ever wanted.

Also, don’t mistake passion and chemistry for love!!! Love is a verb–one that you perform by weathering all storms together long after the novelty has worn off! That nonexistent perfect relationship is probably killing a perfectly good one. Most couples aren’t perfectly in-sync sexually, and few people are as attractive once you know all their bad habits and faults, and it’s worse once your bodies start showing signs of age.

Believe me, none of us are beyond this failing–we’re just in it to varying degrees. I’ve been all over the map on this one, and a change in perspective is all it takes. The greatest love of my life is my children, and I lost one at the age of two. As much as I’d love to have him back, I’d much rather him stay and wait for me to catch up to him, because that’s where the real rewards are!

 

[larry85704]

Lets see if I understand.

Your husband is older, and a strict Catholic.
You are 39 and want intimacy/sex that you are not getting.

Couple of facts about the Catholic faith.

Husbands must love their wives, as Christ loves the Church.
Divorce is actually ok but undesirable , annulments happen all the time.
You must honor your husband.

Things to think about.

How would your husband respond to being divorced?
Sometimes the grass is greener elsewhere, because of all the manure.
How would you like being divorced? Have to really thought about it?

The way you come across to me, and maybe I am wrong, is that you want your husband to cherish you, to make you feel loved. Sex is a part of that, but a small part, actually. But is sure feels like a big deal when it isn’t there. Do you remember the relationships you had before, based on dishonesty? If you leave your husband, and maybe you should, that sewer is what is waiting for you.

You have alot invested in your marriage. So does your husband. Doesn’t sound like either one of you fully realize that. You will, if you divorce, but then it is too late, isn’t it?

To be fair, you married your husband. You must have known what you were getting into. Same for him. From what you said you have much to be thankful for. And you know it. How does your husband feel?

People on this site represent the Catholic Church as somewhat more ridged than it really is. But lets face it, if somebody says birth control is ok, they get beat up real good. And yep, I don’t like birth control either.

Now, consider this- There is a story in the Gospel, about saving a sheep on the Sabbath. If I remember, Jesus brought it up because He cured somebody of the Sabbath. I believe Jesus’s point was that to do a moral act, it is sometimes necessary to do an immoral act. That is if you buy into the idea that saving a sleep, or healing a person, on the Sabbath is immoral. I don’t, but the people Jesus was talking to evidently did.

So your husband must be as Christ in your marriage. He must figure out how to love you and meet your needs. Your needs do not seem to be unreasonable. You are entitled to your husbands love, body, time and money, as he is entitled to yours. If your husband needs to rescue you on the Sabbath, or (insert whatever) he is bound by his vows to you, and to God, to do that.

When you, or your husband, become unwilling to share your time, love, body or money, you have broken your marriage vows. To the extent the selfishness continues you will divorce. Whatever you decide I hope you, and your husband, do everything possible to save your marriage. It would be sad, at least to me, if your husband used the Church’s teaching on birth control as a wedge to force you to divorce him. I really don’t think that would be the teaching of the Church. Even if you were Catholic, you are not bound by your marriage vows to do something you firmly believe is wrong. If you firmly believe that sterilization is correct for you, then according to the teachings of the Church, you are not committing a sin if you get sterilized. Of course, you realize the Church would rather you didn’t, but you are responsible for your life, both here and after you die. You must do what you think is right for you. Your husband must, out of love for you, accept your decision and continue to love you as his wife. Husbands do not have the right to force their wives to do something they firmly believe would be wrong.

Much of what I said will get many responses that I am some sort of non-Catholic, but I can assure you everything I’ve said is defensible by the Catechism, or the Gospel. But never mind that, never mind me, pray. You didn’t say you had done that. I bet you have. What God is telling you?

God Bless you.

 

[dulcissima]

If you firmly believe that sterilization is correct for you, then according to the teachings of the Church, you are not committing a sin if you get sterilized.

Larry, A lot of what you say is nice…but I am going to harp on this one. Sin is sin. There is nothing that is a sin for one person that is not a sin for someone else. Something doesn’t become not a sin just because “in our heart” we don’t think that it is. A sin is an offense to God. We’ve got to take care that we don’t rationalize away our excuses to sin.

I heard a great quote somewhere…An excuse is worse than a lie, because it is a lie guarded.

It is very, very spiritually dangerous to use excuses and rationalizations to justify sin, because then we condemn ourselves by never seeking forgiveness for these sins that we cling to so desperately.

 

[Ms.Cilantro]

Hey,
It seems to me that you connected with your husband because of his spirituality. But his spirituality can’t carry both of you. You need your own relationship with God. Without that all your decisions will be at best partial solutions to the issues you face. I too am a reform Jew by birth. My walk has brought me to know Jesus which was not easy. There is so much history and culture working against this. However if he is who he says he is it is worth finding out. You may want to check out the Association of Hebrew Catholics. You may want to read Salvation is From the Jews by Roy Shoeman. Most Jews that come to know Jesus come through some pretty profound experiences. It can be hard to get to ‘knowing’ through others.
If Jesus is not who he says he is then the church is irrelevant and so are her rules. That is why for you to come to any kind of rational decisions in your marriage you really have to figure this out. Feel free to email me if you want to.
Ms. Cilantro

 

[AeroChunky]

Larry, A lot of what you say is nice…but I am going to harp on this one. Sin is sin. There is nothing that is a sin for one person that is not a sin for someone else. Something doesn’t become not a sin just because “in our heart” we don’t think that it is. A sin is an offense to God. We’ve got to take care that we don’t rationalize away our excuses to sin.

I heard a great quote somewhere…An excuse is worse than a lie, because it is a lie guarded.

It is very, very spiritually dangerous to use excuses and rationalizations to justify sin, because then we condemn ourselves by never seeking forgiveness for these sins that we cling to so desperately.

What you say here is true…for Catholics. We hold that Sterilization is a sin. Other Christna demons dont.

We can tell her what the Catholic Church teaches, and what sterilization means for Catholics, but what authority do we have to tell her this for her life?

Larry is correct in that she is not Catholic…she is not Christian.

(Pardon the analogy Deronda), but it would be like going into a dark-african tribe and start condeming them for human sacrifices.

What do they care? By what Authority do we tell them that? They do not acribe to our rules and beliefs.

It’s kinda the same here. We can tell her what the Church teaches and how her husband view things, but we, as Catholics and Christians cannot tell her that she will sin (Obectively sin) but getting steralized.
We can inform her why we say that, but we do not have Authority.

She is in a marriage with a Catholic. And now she knows what the Church teaches and how her husband views sterilization and will view her if she gets one…but we cannot tell her that she is sinning.

It may ruin her marriage, or have a host of other reprocussions, but that’s it.

 

[dulcissima]

She may not be culpable for the sin, but a sin is a sin. What is a sin for a Catholic is still a sin for a non-Catholic.