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CuriousInIL
Guest
Is it true that being on your period is not sufficient cause to refuse the marital debt?
- Status
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Katie1723
Guest
I believe it is a matter of personal preferance. At any time, if you don’t want to, then don’t. Or don’t feel you have to just because your partner wants to.
Code:
~ Kathy ~
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Rob_s_Wife
Guest
You don’t have to have relations with your spouse everytime they are in the mood, if you are not in a like mood.
The issue of refusing is not really about being in the mood - it’s about purposely deciding you are going to withhold for some reason, usually for a long time frame (as birth control, as punishment, lack of love, etc…). It is frowned on because it may hurt the marriage as a whole.
If having relations during a cycle is bothersome for one or the other - there is no reason either should feel religious pressure to have relations anyhow.
The issue of refusing is not really about being in the mood - it’s about purposely deciding you are going to withhold for some reason, usually for a long time frame (as birth control, as punishment, lack of love, etc…). It is frowned on because it may hurt the marriage as a whole.
If having relations during a cycle is bothersome for one or the other - there is no reason either should feel religious pressure to have relations anyhow.
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jc411
Guest
The debitum is scriptural and part of the law of the Church, and one spouse cannot withhold the debitum from the other, unless there is very serious reason, or they commit a mortal sin. And I cannot imagine how any catholic’s conscience could let them hold out on their spouse anyway, or why they would do that, assuming it is within in their ability to pay it.
As to what the menstrual period has to do with it - the husband can still ask for the debt at that time, and the wife must render it if able to, but on the flipside the wife can request the debt during menstration, yet the husband can refuse it during this time (only), quite sinlessly.
I think the debitum is a practical way in which the family and marriage resembles Christ and His Church, as it is called to do. The Church sins when it holds back from its Head what is desired by the bridegroom. Similarly, you cannot imagine Christ denying the Church (the bride) what it asks for in good faith. This “marriage” stops being beautiful, fruitful, and life giving, when there is a defect or breakdown in honoring this debt.
It is not just about the long term either. The debt has to be paid very soon as private setting can be found which is suitable, if a spouse asks for it.
As to what the menstrual period has to do with it - the husband can still ask for the debt at that time, and the wife must render it if able to, but on the flipside the wife can request the debt during menstration, yet the husband can refuse it during this time (only), quite sinlessly.
I think the debitum is a practical way in which the family and marriage resembles Christ and His Church, as it is called to do. The Church sins when it holds back from its Head what is desired by the bridegroom. Similarly, you cannot imagine Christ denying the Church (the bride) what it asks for in good faith. This “marriage” stops being beautiful, fruitful, and life giving, when there is a defect or breakdown in honoring this debt.
It is not just about the long term either. The debt has to be paid very soon as private setting can be found which is suitable, if a spouse asks for it.
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1ke
Guest
In a word: No
The marital embrace is an essential element of the marriage. But, what you are talking about is postponing it a few days until the wife feels up to it, not refusing it.
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jc411
Guest
That’s not correct. She asked if she can refuse it during her period, and the answer is she cannot. Postponing was your interjection. Postponing it = refusing it for a few days (sinning during this time), and not refusing after a few days (ceasing to sin at that time).
Here is someone asking clear questions, needing clear answers.
Check Aquinas on this subject. Item #3.
stjamescatholic.org/summa/XP/XP064.html
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frogman80
Guest
Refusal the marriage debt is wrong without good reason. Simply “not being in the mood” does not cut it… moods can change pretty quickly. That in mind, a spouse should consider the other before requesting!
jc411:
newadvent.org/summa/5.htm
As a side note, Aquinas did not write this part of the Summa… The Supplementum was written after he had died.
newadvent.org/summa/5.htm
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migurl
Guest
It is all about intentions! If you fell uncomfortable about making love during your period, then you need to communicate that to your husband. Good, catholic husbands will be able to accept that feeling. Maybe you two can talk about it and figure out why you feel uncomfortable and maybe find a way to fix that. TALK TO HIM!!!
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LovedOne
Guest
When man and woman are joined together in matrimony their bodies cease to be their own but now belong to each other.
Each time spouses engage in the marital act they are renewing their wedding vows.
Should one spouse request the other spouse to ‘renew their vows’ - he or she has a grave moral obligation to honor that request and give themselves freely and completely without reservation to the other.
Just as Christ gave of himself to his bride - the Church.
Marriage was designed to mirror that.
Now, of course the request MUST be “reasonable.”
An abusive spouse demanding sex does not have a right to abuse his spouse.
Illness, childbirth and other such examples of conditions that would make a request unreasonable should not prompt a truly loving spouse to request intercourse anyway.
But if such a request is made - there is no sin in refusal.
Menstruation is something each couple must decide together whether or not it is a reasonable request.
If one is very turned off by it - the other should lovingly respect that.
Each time spouses engage in the marital act they are renewing their wedding vows.
Should one spouse request the other spouse to ‘renew their vows’ - he or she has a grave moral obligation to honor that request and give themselves freely and completely without reservation to the other.
Just as Christ gave of himself to his bride - the Church.
Marriage was designed to mirror that.
Now, of course the request MUST be “reasonable.”
An abusive spouse demanding sex does not have a right to abuse his spouse.
Illness, childbirth and other such examples of conditions that would make a request unreasonable should not prompt a truly loving spouse to request intercourse anyway.
But if such a request is made - there is no sin in refusal.
Menstruation is something each couple must decide together whether or not it is a reasonable request.
If one is very turned off by it - the other should lovingly respect that.
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notreallysure
Guest
Two questions:
First,
LovedOne:
Second, I do not want to hijack this thread, but I have never understood how this concept of requesting relations
LovedOne:
First,
What happens if the other does not lovingly respect that–I am not talking about heavy handedness–what if there is a good faith disagreement here?
Second, I do not want to hijack this thread, but I have never understood how this concept of requesting relations
works with the idea that neither partner is supposed to be selfish–are all these folks asking only when they think their partner wants relations and not when they do?
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jc411
Guest
As to the first question, the one who wants it is entitled to receive it (except under certain grave exceptions).
As to the second one, which wasn’t really a question, but the idea is that if the one spouse is aware of the other one’s desire, they are duty bound to provide if they are able. One hopes it doesn’t come down to having to flat out ask for it, but I am sure stranger things have happened, especially when dealing with an uninterested spouse. Further, it would be good judgment to satisfy one’s spouse, rather than allow them to face other possible temptations in this unchaste world of bad example…
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notreallysure
Guest
Just to clarify, my second question is more like this–if one spouse does request relations and does so because they are interested and the other is not (or is indifferent), is that itself not sinful sexual selfisness? Logically it seems that way, but I guess it must not be or the whole concept of the marital debt and requests for relations do not make sense.
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frogman80
Guest
The are lots of things that people do that they really don’t feel like. For example… I get up every morning, and leave my wife and children to go to work. Even when I get at work, I find myself wishing I was home. Every once in awhile, my boss asks me to go out of town for an extended period, or to work on weekends. It is his right to do so… It is my job.
Putting aside abusive relationships, or situation where a spouse is sick… etc etc… It is a given right for one loving spouse to make the request of the other. That “right” was given be each spouse to the other.
In your example the uninterested (or indifferent) spouse could easily be selfish for not fulfilling the other’s request.
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migurl
Guest
I understand what you are saying, it does seem selfish that if a spouse, knowing the other for some reason doesn’t want to, still demands it. It comes down to love. My fiancee and I have discussed this. If he feels the desire but knows that I do not wish to engage in the marital act he will try his best to deal with it. Being engaged, we may feel the desire but we cannot act on it, so we find other things to do that express our love for each other. Times like that will make a marriage stronger. There will be times whena spouse will give in to the others desire for sex, and times when the spouse will put aside their sexual desire and find something else to do, like a romantic bath or massage. Besides, if the couple tries to do something else (bath etc) perhaps after while, the unwilling spouse will become willing! There is no definite answer, God knows what is in our hearts. If spouses really love eachother and know eachother well, they will know what to do, they will discuss it and it will all work out.
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migurl
Guest
One thing that just came to mind was that if a spouse wants to make love, wants to feel that connection and makes it obvious to the other, I kinda think that the unwilling spouse would see that in their eyes and realize that their spouse is longing for that deep spiritual connection, and knowing that they can give that to the other, fulfill their needs, that would be a great gift to give I think.
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frogman80
Guest
Yes… it is always great to love your spouse!
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cathologos
Guest
Recognizing the wife’s duty to honor the marital debt, I’m nonethess compelled to note that any husband who would routinely request relations during the menses, knowing that such request is going to make his wife uncomfortable, isn’t much of a husband. Such an action is profoundly selfish – and marriage is about selflessness, not selfishness.
I suspect, though, that the original question may arise as much from lack of communication as from selfishness. Many married couples don’t discuss things that they need to discuss, and relations during the menses is just the kind of “delicate subject” that sometimes gets brushed aside.
For the record, I’m a husband…
I suspect, though, that the original question may arise as much from lack of communication as from selfishness. Many married couples don’t discuss things that they need to discuss, and relations during the menses is just the kind of “delicate subject” that sometimes gets brushed aside.
For the record, I’m a husband…
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otm
Guest
Aquinas was wrong on other issues, and I hardly consider him the final say-so on every issue of Moral Theology. That is not to say that I would not consider him excellent in many ways, but if this is the best that you can provide to say that the wife must have sexual intercourse any time her husband demands it, then I would suggest that the Church needs a bit more insight into marital relations.
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cynic
Guest
PAY THE MARRAIGE DEBT?!? what a bizzare, ugly and legalistic term.
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Katie1723
Guest
Forcing someone to have sex when they don’t want to is called rape.Married or not, marital debt or not…it’s rape.
And there are other problems if you guys can’t wait a few days without making your wife feel she “owes you”
And there are other problems if you guys can’t wait a few days without making your wife feel she “owes you”
~ Kathy ~- Status