Marital Debt

  • Thread starter Thread starter CuriousInIL
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
jc411:
The Church sins when it holds back from its Head what is desired by the bridegroom.
Click to expand...
I don’t want to get the thread off on a tangent but you need to be careful of your wording. The “Church” is the spotless Bride of Christ. Being spotless she does not sin. If you are referring to her members that’s one thing (becasue they often do sin) but the “Church” aside from her members, is sinless.
 
With all the talk about lust on these forums I find this topic hard to fathom. What motivates a man (or woman I guess) to request relations with their husband/wife when they KNOW that the other person doesn’t feel like it? What is that urge based on? I mean isn’t genuine affection based on the desire to please the other person too? but if you know they’re not in the mood for this then how can it be based on that?
 
40.png
cynic:
With all the talk about lust on these forums I find this topic hard to fathom. What motivates a man (or woman I guess) to request relations with their husband/wife when they KNOW that the other person doesn’t feel like it? What is that urge based on? I mean isn’t genuine affection based on the desire to please the other person too? but if you know they’re not in the mood for this then how can it be based on that?
Click to expand...
Imagine you had eye surgery, you know, the lasic stuff. Afterwards you can’t see too well for a few days. Aren’t you itching to get your sight back to normal? To be complete again? How about if you go away for a business trip and you can’t wait to get back to see your family? It is NORMAL for a spouse to desire to be as close as possile to their husband or wife, that is how God intended it to be. Those called to the married life are supposed to have that desire along with the desire to have children. It is the unitive aspect of sex that is so desirable. The idea of being whole, of being two in one flesh is so awe insipring. It is the spiritual aspect that draws us to one another. Yes, the physical is nice too ( I guess 🙂 ) but at some point I think it has to grow beyond that in order to be healthy. What if you are sick and can’t even get out of bed, does that mean you shouldn’t ask your spouse to make you tea and soup so you don’t get worse? No. It may suck to have to do that, but it isn’t wrong. Lust shouldn’t exist in marriage.
Like I’ve said before, communication is key, if the couple TALKS about it and is HONEST about it, there should be no problem. Either party will understand who should make the sacrifice.
 
Brendan, I hope you will expand on this…

“The example I gave above dealt with concupiscience. If one spouse is having difficulty controlling their urges, it is hardly selfish to ask for assitance in the form of the Marital debt, even knowing the other spouse will refuse.”

To me, this sounds like objectifying the spouse, which is wrong. The marital act is supposed to be a mutual giving of one to the other, not one spouse using the other to scratch an itch, as it were.

The other things you have said make a whole lot of sense, so I’m pretty sure there is an aspect that I am not “getting.”

I, too, find the term, “marital debt” ugly. Why? because it implies, “You owe me sex.” Something that I heard, much much too often, when I was in the secular dating scene.
 
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the term ‘marital debt’. I think what we may fail to appreciate is that debts and rules and things like that aren’t necessarily bad. Paying the marital debt is not like paying a bill - it is good for the person who pays the debt as well as for the person who is paid.
 
40.png
Ruthie:
I, too, find the term, “marital debt” ugly. Why? because it implies, “You owe me sex.” Something that I heard, much much too often, when I was in the secular dating scene.
Click to expand...
I know you wrote this to Brendan… but I would like to comment anyway. 😃

As Brendan, and others have said, when you get married, you freely give your body to your spouse. So in a sense you only “owe” your spouse … because you choose to by getting married. (Again… there are justifiable exceptions)

The dating “scene” is different. Marital relations between a man and a woman do not belong in that “scene.” Therefore no one owes anyone sex. No one has the right to request, or fulfill it outside of marriage. It is important that people can separate the two different states in life. (Unlike our secular society does.)
40.png
Ruthie:
To me, this sounds like objectifying the spouse, which is wrong. The marital act is supposed to be a mutual giving of one to the other, not one spouse using the other to scratch an itch, as it were.
Click to expand...
You must be envisioning an abusive relationship… or at least a relationship where the spouse has no love for the other. In a loving marriage, that mutual giving is a bit difficult to separate from “scratching the itch” They go hand in hand.

Again… NOT wanting sex for a good reason… is very different than simply not feeling in the mood.

I don’t feel in the mood to cook dinner.
I don’t feel in the mood to take care of our children.
I don’t feel in the mood to go to work.
I don’t feel in the mood to pay the bills.
I don’t feel in the mood to make an effort to do… whatever
I don’t feel in the mood to love you like I agreed to when we got married.
 
Dear all,

First, so that there’s no confusion, I am not married yet. My girlfriend and I are in the process of discernment.

If I were married and my wife was not in the mood to unite herself to me in the conjugal act, demanding it of her would not cross my mind. I would try to help her overcome whatever was causing her to feel a separation from me emotionally or otherwise, which I would presume to be the cause of her being “not in the mood”.

I think that it would require charity from both of us to overcome the separation. She should try to overcome the “mood”, and I should not push her, but help her.

The conjugal act, as I understand it, is a complete giving of self to your spouse. In that context the union of marriage is fully experienced. Each time this self-giving occurs I believe it is almost sacramental in nature. It is, if I’m not mistaken, part of the conferrence of the Sacrament of Matrimony from the beginning. God is present in the act that He has sanctioned and blessed. As a sacrament it requires the willful participation of the parties involved.

Ideally, both spouses are “in the mood” their entire marriage through, ready to give themselves completely at all times. It is not possible to give oneself in this complete way perpetually, I know, but the willingness is there. 🙂

In my opinion, neither spouse should refuse nor demand physical union. It is something that has to be freely given, and should be freely given in the context of marriage.

M2C anyway. 🙂

God bless,

Agricola
 
This link contains a long (but interesting) article about Marriage, sex, roles, requests, duties… etc… etc… The article even lists some questions that husbands and wives should ask themselves to make sure the are not being selfish.

It is worth a skim:
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1001
 
My take: A husband who insists on sex with his wife against his wife’s wishes has more in common with a rapist than with a husband.

YMMV.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
40.png
mlchance:
My take: A husband who insists on sex with his wife against his wife’s wishes has more in common with a rapist than with a husband.

YMMV.
Click to expand...
Again, you are looking at this wrong. There is a BIG difference between slaming your wife down on the bed and taking off her clothes etc and ASKING to be united as one in an act established by GOD. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. COMMUNICATION!!! A man should not be expected to bottle up his feelings, especially if they are loving and unitive. He should be able, with complete understanding from his loving wife, to ask for her love in that way. After he asks, the two should discuss whether or not the time is appropriate. It may turn out that she has a very good reason not too. So, the husband will say, I understand and the wife will feel so loved because he was wiling to let go of what he wanted for her sake. And likewise if they decide to go ahead, even though she isn’t really in the mood, the husband will feel very oved because his wife was willing to give of herself even though she wasn’t motivated of her own will, ie DOING SOMETHING FOR SOMEONE ELSE OUT OF LOVE FOR THEM, NOT YOURSELF. LOVE does not look at the marital embrace as some burden to be forced upon them. FOr those fo you struggling with this concept, there is a deeper issue that you need to look into and that is the essence and meaning of Catholic, spousal LOVE.
 
40.png
migurl:
Again, you are looking at this wrong. There is a BIG difference between slaming your wife down on the bed and taking off her clothes etc and ASKING to be united as one in an act established by GOD.
Click to expand...
Admittedly. Likewise, there is a big difference between accepting “No” as an answer from one’s wife and waxing theological about “marital debts” and “mortal sins.”

Perhaps I’m just old-fashioned. I was raised to believe that “No” means “No,” regardless of which woman’s mouth that word comes out of.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
40.png
migurl:
… He should be able, with complete understanding from his loving wife, to ask for her love in that way. …
Click to expand...
He does have every right to ask…Just as she has every right to say NO.
~ Kathy ~
 
40.png
Katie1723:
…she has every right to say NO
Click to expand...
Comments are more helpful when the have explanation to go along with them. Could you elaborate a bit on the following questions?

Why does a woman have every right to say no? ( Does a man also have every right to say no when his wife makes a request? )

What reasons do you envision a woman saying no?

Is it acceptable for a woman to deny sex as a “punishment” to her husband?

Can a woman be selfish for saying no?

If she says no, when is it acceptable for a husband to ask again? How often?

Is this your personal opinion? Where do you get your information?

catholicculture.org/docs…cfm?recnum=1001
 
40.png
frogman80:
Comments are more helpful when the have explanation to go along with them. Could you elaborate a bit on the following questions?

Why does a woman have every right to say no? ( Does a man also have every right to say no when his wife makes a request? )

What reasons do you envision a woman saying no?

Is it acceptable for a woman to deny sex as a “punishment” to her husband?

Can a woman be selfish for saying no?

If she says no, when is it acceptable for a husband to ask again? How often?

Is this your personal opinion? Where do you get your information?

catholicculture.org/docs…cfm?recnum=1001
Click to expand...
EVERYONE has the right to say NO. It is not limited to one sex or another. As to “why”, I suppose that depends on the individual.I believe it is called freedom of choice.

As to “reasons”, again, a simple NO should suffice, or perhaps “I don’t feel like it”

I don’t believe that withholding sex as a punishment is acceptable on either persons part. Men have been known to do it also I believe.It is not limited to those of the female persuasion.

I suppose selfishness could enter into the equasion. But then, that might possibly be indicative of other problems.

As far as how long to wait, that would depend on the situation. Five minutes may be too soon and yet a week may not be long enough.

And to answer your last query, it is indeed my personal opinion and not necessarily those of my sponsors.
~ Kathy ~
 
40.png
Katie1723:
And to answer your last query, it is indeed my personal opinion and not necessarily those of my sponsors.
Click to expand...
😃 Ha!
40.png
Katie1723:
As to “reasons”, again, a simple NO should suffice, or perhaps “I don’t feel like it”
Click to expand...
Have you ever been in any situation (not necessarily related to sex) where you have “not felt like it” but done it anyway? Have you ever been in a situation where you are required to fulfill a duty… and do it regardless of your feelings?

Would it be wrong for a woman to choose to have sex with her husband even if she doesn’t feel like it?
40.png
Katie1723:
…I believe it is called freedom of choice…
Click to expand...
Yes, everyone has free will, but that does not mean that all acts are morally permissible. I am not accusing you… but “freedom of choice” sounds eerily close to “pro-choice” Again… not accusing!!
40.png
Katie1723:
As far as how long to wait, that would depend on the situation. Five minutes may be too soon and yet a week may not be long enough.
Click to expand...
Do you think it is possible for a woman (who doesn’t “feel like it”) to decided to have relations with her husband… and then have her feelings “change” during… “warm up?”
 
40.png
Katie1723:
…in the context of generosity and mutual consideration.

There are times when for any number of reasons, including health, intercourse would be painful or at least a grave burden. Concern for the other ought always to be the norm on the part of both parties.
Click to expand...
Right… don’t think anyone here has said otherwise. 👍

What is the difference between a spouse who “doesn’t feel like it” and one who “does feel like it?”
 
frogman80 said:
😃 Ha!

Have you ever been in any situation (not necessarily related to sex) where you have “not felt like it” but done it anyway? Have you ever been in a situation where you are required to fulfill a duty… and do it regardless of your feelings?

…but “freedom of choice” sounds eerily close to “pro-choice” Again… not accusing!!

Do you think it is possible for a woman (who doesn’t “feel like it”) to decided to have relations with her husband… and then have her feelings “change” during… “warm up?”
Click to expand...

In response to your first question…everyday…it’s called WORK

freedom of choice is just that …I believe God called it free will. Like “do I want chocolate cake or pumpkin pie?” THAT’S freedom of choice. Pro choice is generally in reference to abortion I believe.

And yes, given that the man knows what he’s doing, feelings can and do change during “warm up”
~ Kathy ~
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top