Marital Foreplay and Sex

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??? There are 23 different rites but they are all under the Pope, so I don’t know what your point is. Are you trying to talk about the Orthodox? Should we lump all protestants in there too and then claim that the Church has changed? But that is really not relevant since we are talking about morality and the constant teaching of marriage and sexual relations in the Church, not about different acceptable modes of worship.
I think the comment was meant to illuminate that fact that there are several Catholic rites that are in communion with the Pope. And more important because it is relevant to this conversation is that they all have different Catholic doctrines.
 
When I was a teenager I had concerns like the OP. I thought to myself, wow I am working to stay pure until marriage and then even after that there are all these restrictions. The truth is you are the one who decides to abstain or not. You either complete the act during a possible fertile time or you don’t.

When I finally became a married person, it was no big deal. I could not imagine wanting to participate in that sort of thing without ending it properly. Foreplay does not make me feel close to my husband, that’s the work it takes to get to the good part. I can’t imagine why anyone would prefer not completing the act.

Disclosure: To be fair, I didn’t learn a lot about NFP because I was so eager to get married and we ran out of time, just doing the other part of the marriage prep program. We did get pregnant 6 months after being married and pretty much never abstained as married people. I do think I should learn a little more about it now, but I cannot imagine being strict with it or I might get as worried as some of the people who start threads like this.

You have to be ok with having kids. If you are able to throw off that fear you don’t get tangled up into this type of worry,
 
When I was a teenager I had concerns like the OP. I thought to myself, wow I am working to stay pure until marriage and then even after that there are all these restrictions. The truth is you are the one who decides to abstain or not. You either complete the act during a possible fertile time or you don’t.

When I finally became a married person, it was no big deal. I could not imagine wanting to participate in that sort of thing without ending it properly. Foreplay does not make me feel close to my husband, that’s the work it takes to get to the good part. I can’t imagine why anyone would prefer not completing the act.

Disclosure: To be fair, I didn’t learn a lot about NFP because I was so eager to get married and we ran out of time, just doing the other part of the marriage prep program. We did get pregnant 6 months after being married and pretty much never abstained as married people. I do think I should learn a little more about it now, but I cannot imagine being strict with it or I might get as worried as some of the people who start threads like this.

You have to be ok with having kids. If you are able to throw off that fear you don’t get tangled up into this type of worry,
" Foreplay does not make me feel close to my husband, that’s the work it takes to get to the good part. "

Could you explain more this thought? Honestly, what is the sense of this statement? I am not sure to understand. In my opinion, this statement can be interpreted of different ways. What is yours in order to be sure to understand you?
 
" Foreplay does not make me feel close to my husband, that’s the work it takes to get to the good part. "

Could you explain more this thought? Honestly, what is the sense of this statement? I am not sure to understand. In my opinion, this statement can be interpreted of different ways. What is yours in order to be sure to understand you?
Ha. Well it is probably just the pregnancy talking. It takes considerably more “work” to get ready for the marital act in my case, some women experience the opposite they are pregnant and always ready to go. Maybe I just don’t remember what it is like to not have a huge 37 week belly and seriously uncooperative body.

Anyway, what I mean by it is that this thread was started on the topic of someone wanting to do things besides the complete sexual act during fertile times. I feel closest to my husband, sexually during the actual act and afterward than during the other things you might do beforehand. Even if it were morally permissable in some alternate universe to conduct oneself in a way to just participate in other acts, I would feel as though I were missing out. I don’t understand why someone would want to do only those things.

Did that make it make any more sense? I suddenly feel like I am sharing way too much. 😦
 
Ha. Well it is probably just the pregnancy talking. It takes considerably more “work” to get ready for the marital act in my case, some women experience the opposite they are pregnant and always ready to go. Maybe I just don’t remember what it is like to not have a huge 37 week belly and seriously uncooperative body.

Anyway, what I mean by it is that this thread was started on the topic of someone wanting to do things besides the complete sexual act during fertile times. I feel closest to my husband, sexually during the actual act and afterward than during the other things you might do beforehand. Even if it were morally permissable in some alternate universe to conduct oneself in a way to just participate in other acts, I would feel as though I were missing out. I don’t understand why someone would want to do only those things.

Did that make it make any more sense? I suddenly feel like I am sharing way too much. 😦
Okay, I understand now because my first understanding, it was that, per se, intimate foreplay, before the marital act, were not , normally speaking, a wonderful conjugal holy erotism between wife and spouse (see Song of Songs).

My thought is that, per se, like human beings (male and female) with soul and body, we are in moral obligation to practice the marital act, not like animals, thus with creativity, Art and science coming from our brain. Our human soul and the human body gice us moral obligation and moral duty, if no medical issue or difficult objective situation.

Sorry, perhaps that my English understanding is not enought for knowing the subtility of your first statement.

See you on Caf, next time.
 
Okay, I understand now because my first understanding, it was that, per se, intimate foreplay, before the marital act, were not , normally speaking, a wonderful conjugal holy erotism between wife and spouse (see Song of Songs).
What exactly are you referring to in the book of Song of Songs and where precisely?
My thought is that, per se, like human beings (male and female) with soul and body, we are in moral obligation to practice the marital act, not like animals, thus with creativity, Art and science coming from our brain. Our human soul and the human body gice us moral obligation and moral duty, if no medical issue or difficult objective situation.
I am not quite sure as you where you are driving to. I am just wondering why you see the marital act as an act subject to creativity. What are you trying to insinuate?
 
I think all of this assumes that a man cannot find enjoyment without release of seed. The sin would be in releasing semen outside of the proper context, but climaxing is not always accompanied by such. You and your husband can please each other and satisfy one another needs without ejaculation.
I suppose if both, especially the man, enjoy high levels of frustration.
 
What exactly are you referring to in the book of Song of Songs and where precisely?

I am not quite sure as you where you are driving to. I am just wondering why you see the marital act as an act subject to creativity. What are you trying to insinuate?
This is my understanding of the global teaching of roman catholic church about " making one flesh ".

By definition, the marital act, the union of bodies between wife and husband is not an act of reproduction like it of the other animals: unity and procreativity in the human fashion (body and soul). From body, there are the intimate organs with roles, functions, utilities and the ends (finalities); From the soul, there are intellect, intelligence, brain, the reason, thus the creativity, the liberty, the capacity to understand the things in the respect of natural law.

This conjugal sexual union is, before all , a prayer, a liturgy, an act of love, a language, a communion, a sharing, a donation, a gift, a present. This marital act is the sign of unity between the duality of humanity (male and female at the Image of God, a symbol of link between the couple and the Holy Trinity, it is the image of Holy Trinity). The ends of marital act are the love (from love to love and for improving love): the true and real conjugal carnal charity wanted by God. Between wife and husband, it is also a right and a duty, and an obligation and a debt.

In the Song of Songs, the Holy erotic poem of the Holy Bible concerning the truly love between the beloved and the " Sulamite " (bride, fiancée, future wife). Three types of understandings (The love From God for humanity, the love from God for the Holy catholic church, and the Holy Conjugal Carnal love in the marriage, a beautiful example).

In conclusion, I can be almost sure that there is the holy conjugal carnal love in the marriage with the holy erotism composed by the holy sexed and sexual foreplay. If we are practicing the marital act, we are in the moral obligation the make the maximum in order to respect the human nature (body and soul). Marital sex between wife and husband, okay, but in link the human intelligence and the human reason: Art, science, love, with the poesy.
 
This thread needs to die.

Let’s analyze the OP’s problem with the Catechism.
Code:
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which "is on the side of life"150 teaches that "each and every marriage act must remain open 'per se' to the transmission of life."151 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."
All sexual activity in a marriage must be BOTH for the good of the spouses and open to life. Separating the procreative from the act is sinful, but so is having procreative sex when it is not for the good of the spouses. EVERY act must be “open” to the transmission of life and man on his own initiative may not break it.
Code:
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.153 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."154
Couples are called to both generously create new life and to responsible parenthood.
Code:
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality.
As part of the Church’s their duty responsible parenthood, couples may plan their families and avoid pregnancy. However, they must carefully discern whether they are avoiding pregnancy for good, responsible, “just” reasons or out of selfishness. Furthermore, they must use moral means to avoid pregnancy.
Code:
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil.
Natural Family Planning is moral and encouraged. Contraception, which interferes with the conjugal act to make conception impossible is intrinsically evil. But this does not necessarily include ALL sexual activities that are not open to life. Some are not contraception, but forms of masturbation, which is a different sin.
Code:
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.
Masturbation (including mutual masturbation) is sexual stimulation outside of the context of the marriage relationship (i.e. the context of married intercourse). It is based in lust and is a sin. But it is NOT contraception. While contraception is “intrinsically evil”, masturbation is merely “intrinsically gravely disordered”. The catechism goes on further to mention mitigating factors, such as immaturity, habit, anxiety, and other psychological or social factors. If such factors apply to an individual, they certainly apply to married couples together.

IMHO, the difference between the two is whether the act itself carries a risk of pregnancy or whether it is interference with an act that can lead to pregnancy. If either is the case, it is contraception, if not, it is masturbation. For example, withdrawal is a form of contraception, even though climax is brought outside of intercourse. It is interference with the natural procreative act. Oral sex (to completion, outside the context of intercourse), on the other hand, is a form of masturbation. The act is inherently non-procreative stimulation of the genitals and there is no interference with anything.

So, from the Catechism, we can draw the following conclusions:

Intercourse = Objectively licit act at all times. Designed to be mutually loving and pleasurable. May or may not be subjectively sinful based on external conditions and if the intent of the spouses is incompatible with the unitive aspect of marital relations. As for procreation, a procreative action shows procreative intent, no matter what is on the spouse’s mind.

Contraception = Always intrinsically evil. Period.

Masturbation = Always intrinsically gravely disordered and sinful, but there may be mitigating factors that reduce culpability.

The next post will analyze the case.
 
The issue is old, but I want to post a conclusion for anyone stumbling across this thread. It keeps coming up.

It appears that OP and her husband are engaging in some form of lust related to masturbation. They are confused about the difference between masturbation and contraception. The difference is not about “spilling the seed”, it is about sterilizing the act. They are not sterilizing any sort of procreative act, so what they are doing is not contraception. The act is inherently sterile and it is masturbation.

But it also appears that there are mitigating factors, because she said that they “cannot have a baby right now” and continuing on to intercourse would not be responsible parenthood or would not be good for both spouses. It appears to be a loving, though disordered, activity.

They do not understand the proper definition of lust and are confused because they are probably acting out of love. Giving your spouse an orgasm is a very loving thing. 👍 But the activity is disordered and it is lust.
**
So, under these circumstances, what they are doing is a sin, but it is not the worst sin in the world. It’s certainly not a mortal sin, which contradicts the love of God and of neighbor, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. It is a sin of immaturity and poor self-control.**

227 posts for a venial sin. 🤷

As for her husband, he is sinning, too. If he is going to sin, he’s better off enjoying sinning with his wife than to sin by himself and lie about it or to just be miserable so that he can pretend he’s not sinning.

The big problem I see here is the husband’s lack of self control and lack of willingness to comply with Church teaching. A common problem, but one that needs addressing with proper spiritual counseling and a proper understanding of the benefits of Phase 2. Part of the benefit of Phase 2 is to learn to love each other with your clothes on.

Couples do need to be close during the infertile phase and it’s not always easy not to sin. They should not get so close they torture themselves (this is especially cruel to the husband, who gets physically uncomfortable), but not remain so distant that they become roommates. Couples naturally want to be close, but this does not mean that God is calling them to make a baby. (Remember “responsible parenthood.”) Couples (and all others) should put forth a good faith effort to remain chaste, but not overly burden themselves if they fail, and always remember to love each other first. Plus, some couples have cycle issues where Phase 2 is unusually long, so this may be especially difficult. If Phase 2 becomes a reminder to go to confession once a month, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

It seems OP and her husband are confused by bad catechesis more than anything. This is causing most of their problems. She needs to stop reading Kimberly Hahn, Christopher West, and Gregory Popcak and start reading the Catechism. (Her attorney husband should read the Catechism like a judge, not like a lawyer.) Perhaps they should get a YouCat. Love and Responsibility is good too, but dense. I believe there are some good summaries of it that are more accessible.
 
I think the comment was meant to illuminate that fact that there are several Catholic rites that are in communion with the Pope. And more important because it is relevant to this conversation is that they all have different Catholic doctrines.
No, they don’t have different doctrines. 🤷 They have different acceptable modes of worship, that does not equal doctrines.
 
No, they don’t have different doctrines. 🤷 They have different acceptable modes of worship, that does not equal doctrines.
Doesn’t the dramatic differences between Roman Catholic teaching and Orthodox Catholic teaching on Mariology and Papal infallibility constitute doctrinal differences?
 
Doesn’t the dramatic differences between Roman Catholic teaching and Orthodox Catholic teaching on Mariology and Papal infallibility constitute doctrinal differences?
Are we talking about the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics? Indeed the Orthodox do have doctrinal differences, but neither are they Catholic. 🤷
 
How are the Eastern Catholic Churches not Catholic?
Sigh, I think you are confused. Eastern Catholics are Catholic and under the pope and do not have different doctrines. The Orthodox are not Catholic and not under the pope, and do have different doctrines. We are talking about the constant teachings of the Catholic Church in faith and morals which has not changed, not Orthodox teaching and not things which do not qualify as doctrine.
 
If you and your husband can engage in days of foreplay before getting to the final event, good for you! Frankly don’t know how the guy can hang on that long!
Let me assure you this is possible and can be not just days but even weeks. It takes practice (a man under 35 may not be able to do it) ,it makes the final session quite intense, best have a strong heart.
 
I’m always annoyed when people refer to manual stimulation within the confines of foreplay leading to intercourse as masterbation for the woman. It’s just a fact of anatomy that many (most?) women cannot orgasm without some sort of other stimulation other than intercourse. I sometimes climax during intercourse, but only in times when there was enough stimulation ahead of time for it to happen.

Masturbation is a solitary act. Foreplay can include any number of things, including manual or oral stimulation.
 
I am not hot on Christopher West writings on the part of “as long as you climax inside” everything else is o.k. Oral stimulation is unnatural. Light kissing in that area would seem allowable and more proper.
 
I am not hot on Christopher West writings on the part of “as long as you climax inside” everything else is o.k. Oral stimulation is unnatural. Light kissing in that area would seem allowable and more proper.
Seems like a completely subjective statement and belief. I have no idea how or why anyone would think to lay down norms to regulate to physical intimacy to this degree.

Shall we go back to the days of having Church Sex Police where if a couple was caught having relations with the woman on top, the couple would be killed??

Good grief…
 
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