B
Benadam
Guest
Better said, the three divine persons are distinct relative to themselves. To all creation the distinctions are not known unless revealed.
- Status
S
SonofAdam
Guest
Cachonga said
Yes the triplets are the same as to what type of being they are i.e., human. It is also correct that they have different personalities. Lets add names to these triplets for better understanding.
John, Brian, and Mike.
If John died, would anyone say ‘Since John died, Mike and Brian died too.’ [of course not]
If John said that he didn’t know anything about physics and his brothers were Professors in physics, would someone say ‘Well, he does know because both his brothers are physic professors,’ [of course not]
Also since John, Mike and Brian are composed i.e., made up of parts, they are limited and are weak. It is impossible for God to be made of parts. You accept that God is not complete without the other 2 ‘beings’ (or parts) because the ‘three’ together make up God. Do you now see how you associate partners with God?
If you had a clear and explicit statement from Jesus stating that he was God in the flesh, I would at least have a better understanding as to why you accept such belief; moreover it seems that this teaching is more from the Church and not from Jesus himself(hence the lack of clarity) which is ironic because the Church is suppose to be following the teachings of Jesus and not innovating new ideas into his teachings.
Imam Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that there are 2 types of people in the world.
You bring up the triplet analogy as if there is a such thing as 3 types of gods and they just have different personalities working together etc.
Yes the triplets are the same as to what type of being they are i.e., human. It is also correct that they have different personalities. Lets add names to these triplets for better understanding.
John, Brian, and Mike.
If John died, would anyone say ‘Since John died, Mike and Brian died too.’ [of course not]
If John said that he didn’t know anything about physics and his brothers were Professors in physics, would someone say ‘Well, he does know because both his brothers are physic professors,’ [of course not]
Also since John, Mike and Brian are composed i.e., made up of parts, they are limited and are weak. It is impossible for God to be made of parts. You accept that God is not complete without the other 2 ‘beings’ (or parts) because the ‘three’ together make up God. Do you now see how you associate partners with God?
If only the ‘Son was incarnate’ then when it was asked if God died, you said ‘Yes, Jesus died’ which means that God died, how can God be said not to have been incarnated when you said God died??
If you had a clear and explicit statement from Jesus stating that he was God in the flesh, I would at least have a better understanding as to why you accept such belief; moreover it seems that this teaching is more from the Church and not from Jesus himself(hence the lack of clarity) which is ironic because the Church is suppose to be following the teachings of Jesus and not innovating new ideas into his teachings.
Imam Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that there are 2 types of people in the world.
- Worldly person
- Religious person
N
NotWorthy
Guest
But the Two don’t share One mind. His human mind still has human limitations, or else It wouldn’t be fully human, eh?He should have a divine mind then too shouldn’t he? I mean, after all, he’s both fully human and fully divine.
Think of it this way. Did the baby Jesus need to learn how to walk? Huh? Think of Mary having to teach Jesus how to walk, how to speak. Isn’t that a beautiful thought? All of Creation came through Jesus and He still humbled himself and took on full humanity.
That’s one of the reasons I love the words the priest says as he pours the water into the wine - “By the mingling of this water and wine, may we come to share in His Divinity, as He humbled Himself to share in our humanity”. Sadly, the priest now says these words to himself, instead of out loud.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Ahhhh, so its happiness you’re looking for, and not Salvation?
Why didn’t you say so in the first place?
R
roselily
Guest
Praise Lord Jesus!
Christ Himself died on the cross to give us eternal life, God ways that is surpasses all understanding, I believe and love Him with all my heart.
:angel1:
V
Vile_Servant
Guest
Dear SonofAdam,
The Quran says; (5:157)
“157. And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,” - **but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man - Judas), **and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge concerning it, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Jesus, son of Mary).”
With all due respect, I find this to be nothing but conjecture on the part of the writers of the Quran. For we have trustworthy eye-witness accounts from Jesus’ disciples that Jesus and Judas were two separate persons. Judas hung himself while Jesus was crucified. Let the truth be revealed to all by Almighty God on the Last Day.
Blessings and peace.
The Quran says; (5:157)
“157. And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,” - **but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man - Judas), **and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge concerning it, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Jesus, son of Mary).”
With all due respect, I find this to be nothing but conjecture on the part of the writers of the Quran. For we have trustworthy eye-witness accounts from Jesus’ disciples that Jesus and Judas were two separate persons. Judas hung himself while Jesus was crucified. Let the truth be revealed to all by Almighty God on the Last Day.
Blessings and peace.
V
Vile_Servant
Guest
Dear Holly3278,(Mark 13:32 NAB-A) But of that day or hour, no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
How could Jesus and the Father both be God but yet Jesus would not know when the day or the hour was?
I think there is a difference between the angels in heaven, who do not know the day or the hour by virtue of their very nature which is inferior to God, and Jesus the Son, who has the power to know the day or the hour, but willingly concealed from Himself the day or the hour, in order to obey and to give greater glory to God the Father. For Jesus has said, “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
In John 10:17-18, Jesus says, “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father.”
Blessings and peace.
M
Mailman
Guest
It is unfortunate that it takes a person of another faith to point out where we, as Christians, have stumbled in our worship of our God. We acknowledge that our Bible is the written Word of our God, yet we do not completely rely on its revelation to understand spiritual truth.
Most of us do not even believe, or is skeptical about the many stories in the Bible. We have not realized how foolish it is to say the Bible contains the very words of our God yet question its very writings [for example the historicity of the OT stories] and innovate on its revealed truths.
The Bible never says God is three persons in one. God did not reveal Himself as “triune” in the OT. The NT also does not reveal a God that is one substance yet three persons. On page 22 of his book, The Trinity, Catholic theologian Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been “…embarrassed by the simple fact that in reality the Scriptures do not explicitly present a doctrine of the ‘imminent’ Trinity (even John’s prologue is no such doctrine).”
The historical record will show that the concept of a Trinity in the Godhead is a product of Greek speculation which took 300 years to develop and even today generates more problems that it solves.
Robert Grant, in his book, (The Early Christian Doctrine of God, 1966, writes: ‘’The doctrine of the Trinity is not a product of the earliest Christian period; it was not expressed until the end of the second century. In its development Christians made use of the methods already worked out by Platonists and Pythagoreans for explaining their own philosophical theology.”
In the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, edited by James Hastings, it says: “The change from the heavenly Father in the Sermon on the Mount to the dogma of the Trinity represents, according to Hatch and Harnack, a degeneration rather than a development, a corruption of the truth from its earliest simplicity.”
N
NotWorthy
Guest
… it sounds like you are being the tool that sonofadam is speaking of. If you don’t see the Trinity in the Old Testament, then you have blinders on. Yes, the Church took two or three centuries to develop the doctrine of the Trinity? Why? To combat heresies that taught false doctrines of who Jesus was and His relationship to God (the God of the Old Testament, for example).
S
SonofAdam
Guest
First point:
The Qur’an never mentions specificly who it was that died on the cross, so the ‘Judas’ that you or whoever you got the quote from, is something added within the translation.
Second point:
There are 2 opinions that I am aware of as to who was put on the cross. One opinion is that it was Judas, as a punishment due to him being an agent for the conspirators at the time and the other opinion is that it was one of the true disciples of Jesus(peace be upon him) who was willing to take on the task voluntarily and he will have his reward in paradise. Whoever it was, Allah put the face i.e., image of Jesus, upon the one who was suppose to die on the cross. The main point that the Qur’an conveys is no matter who it was, it wasn’t Allah’s Messenger, Jesus the son of Mary(peace be upon them).
Keep in mind that the man who was placed on the cross looked just like Jesus, so even if there were witnesses, in their eyes, it was Jesus that was killed when in reality it was someone else.
Anyhow this is another issue that can be dealt with in another thread.
and Allah knows best
and the same for you
C
Coder
Guest
This is for Holly too.
Genesis 1:26 usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis1.htm
Timeout.
The Scriptures have powerful high-level teachings. Are you going to pick up a master’s degree level book on atomic physics and understand it right away?! In fact in physics there is strange phenomenon whereby atomic components seem like particles and waves at the same time. There are many things that scientists do not understand yet they accept them because this is what the evidence shows. How about gravity? Physicists say that it warps space-time. Time itself can change depending on your speed. We don’t really even know what time and gravity are but we have clocks and scales right? So folks, don’t get so excited if the Word of God requires study and contemplation.
Regarding Jesus statement about not knowing the day or the hour it could be that the English translation does not capture the meaning as well and also the context may need to be considered. The word “know” in this case may indicate that this knowledge unlike what Jesus had revealed was not to be revealed to us. I would look for the original Hebrew/Greek to get a better understanding. Also a background in Biblical contexts and expressions could be helpful. Some Scriptures can be better understood in light of other scriptures. Pope St. Gregory the Great taught about this scripture passage.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6538
Regarding the Trinity: I think that if you pray and experience God’s love then you will see the glory and love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can contemplate the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with God’s help. The one spiritual being who is God is three spiritual Persons in a relationship to each other. The line of understanding that the Son is the Father’s knowledge of Himself may be helpful. Also, The line of understanding that God who is a Spirit of Love is in the Father and the Son may be helpful. The Persons are distinct and are united.
S
SonofAdam
Guest
يأَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِى دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَـَامِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلَـثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَحِدٌ سُبْحَـنَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ وما فِى السَّمَـوَت وَمَا فِى الاٌّرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلاً ]
(4:171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah except the truth. Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three!’’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One God, hallowed be He above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.)
Prohibiting the People of the Book From Going to Extremes in Religion
Allah forbids the People of the Scriptures from going to extremes in religion, which is a common trait of theirs, especially among the Christians. The Christians exaggerated over `Isa until they elevated him above the grade that Allah gave him. They elevated him from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom they worshipped just as they worshipped Allah. They exaggerated even more in the case of those who they claim were his followers, claiming that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. This is why Allah said,
اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn
«لَا تُطْرُونِي كَمَا أَطْرَتِ النَّصَارَىِ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ. فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌفَقُولُوا: عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُه»
(Do not unduly praise me like the Christians exaggerated over
«يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عَلَيْكُمْ بِقَوْلِكُمْ، وَلَا يَسْتَهْوِيَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ،أَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِاللهِ، عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَاللهِ مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ تَرْفَعُونِي فَوْقَ مَنْزِلَتِي الَّتِي أَنْزَلَنِي اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَل»
(O people! Say what you have to say, but do not allow Shaytan to trick you. I am Muhammad bin `Abdullah, Allah’s servant and Messenger. By Allah! I do not like that you elevate me above the rank that Allah has granted me.) Allah’s statement,
وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقَّ]
(nor say of Allah except the truth.) means, do not lie and claim that Allah has a wife or a son, Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah is glorified, praised, and honored in His might, grandure and greatness, and there is no deity worthy of worship nor Lord but Him. Allah said;
إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]
(**Al-Masih
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ]
(Al-Masih `Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both ate food.) And Allah said,
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ ]
(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be! ـ and he was.)
وَالَّتِى أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَـهَا وَابْنَهَآ ءَايَةً لِّلْعَـلَمِينَ ]
(And she who guarded her chastity, We breathed into her (garment) and We made her and her son `Isa] a sign for all that exist.) (21:91)
وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَةَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِى أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا]
(And Maryam, the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity,) and Allah said concerning the Messiah,
إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ]
(He `Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.)
(4:171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah except the truth. Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three!’’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One God, hallowed be He above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.)
Prohibiting the People of the Book From Going to Extremes in Religion
Allah forbids the People of the Scriptures from going to extremes in religion, which is a common trait of theirs, especially among the Christians. The Christians exaggerated over `Isa until they elevated him above the grade that Allah gave him. They elevated him from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom they worshipped just as they worshipped Allah. They exaggerated even more in the case of those who they claim were his followers, claiming that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. This is why Allah said,
اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn
Abbas said that Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,«لَا تُطْرُونِي كَمَا أَطْرَتِ النَّصَارَىِ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ. فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌفَقُولُوا: عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُه»
(Do not unduly praise me like the Christians exaggerated over
Isa, son of Maryam. Verily, I am only a servant, so say, Allah’s servant and His Messenger.’) This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that a man once said, "O Muhammad! You are our master and the son of our master, our most righteous person and the son of our most righteous person…’’ The Messenger of Allah said,«يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عَلَيْكُمْ بِقَوْلِكُمْ، وَلَا يَسْتَهْوِيَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ،أَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِاللهِ، عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَاللهِ مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ تَرْفَعُونِي فَوْقَ مَنْزِلَتِي الَّتِي أَنْزَلَنِي اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَل»
(O people! Say what you have to say, but do not allow Shaytan to trick you. I am Muhammad bin `Abdullah, Allah’s servant and Messenger. By Allah! I do not like that you elevate me above the rank that Allah has granted me.) Allah’s statement,
وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقَّ]
(nor say of Allah except the truth.) means, do not lie and claim that Allah has a wife or a son, Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah is glorified, praised, and honored in His might, grandure and greatness, and there is no deity worthy of worship nor Lord but Him. Allah said;
إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]
(**Al-Masih
Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him**;) Isa is only one of Allah’s servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of Isa into Maryam by Allah’s leave, and Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,’ and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril. Allah said,مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ]
(Al-Masih `Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both ate food.) And Allah said,
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ ]
(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be! ـ and he was.)
وَالَّتِى أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَـهَا وَابْنَهَآ ءَايَةً لِّلْعَـلَمِينَ ]
(And she who guarded her chastity, We breathed into her (garment) and We made her and her son `Isa] a sign for all that exist.) (21:91)
وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَةَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِى أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا]
(And Maryam, the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity,) and Allah said concerning the Messiah,
إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ]
(He `Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.)
S
SonofAdam
Guest
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and the Messiah, son of Maryam) [9:31]. Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from
اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).
«بَلَى إِنَّهُمْ حَرَّمُوا عَلَيْهِمُ الْحَلَالَ وَأَحَلُّوا لَهُمُ الْحَرَامَ فَاتَّبَعُوهُمْ فَذَلِكَ عِبَادَتُهُمْ إِيَّاهُم»
(Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.) The Messenger of Allah said to `Adi,
«يَا عَدِيُّ مَا تَقُولُ؟ أَيُفِرُّكَ أَنْ يُقَالَ: اللهُ أَكْبَرَ؟ فَهَلْ تَعْلَمُ شَيْئًا أَكْبَرَ مِنَ اللهِ؟ مَا يُفِرُّكَ؟ أَيُفِرُّكَ أَنْ يُقَالَ: لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ؟ فَهَلْ تَعْلَمُ مَنْ إِلهٌ إِلَّا اللهُ؟»
(O
The Messenger invited
«إِنَّ الْيَهُودَ مَغْضُوبٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَالنَّصَارَى ضَالُّون»
(Verily, the Jews have earned the anger (of Allah) and the Christians are misguided.) Hudhayfah bin Al-Yaman,
اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah…) that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said,
وَمَآ أُمِرُواْ إِلاَّ لِيَعْبُدُواْ إِلَـهاً وَحِداً]
(while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to;
لاَّ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ سُبْحَـنَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ]
(None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
Adi bin Hatim, may Allah be pleased with him, who became Christian during the time of Jahiliyyah. When the call of the Messenger of Allah reached his area, Adi ran away to Ash-Sham, and his sister and several of his people were captured. The Messenger of Allah freed his sister and gave her gifts. So she went to her brother and encouraged him to become Muslim and to go to the Messenger of Allah . Adi, who was one of the chiefs of his people (the tribe of Tai') and whose father, Hatim At-Ta'i, was known for his generosity, went to Al-Madinah. When the people announced his arrival, Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah;اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).
Adi commented, "I said, They did not worship them.’’’ The Prophet said,«بَلَى إِنَّهُمْ حَرَّمُوا عَلَيْهِمُ الْحَلَالَ وَأَحَلُّوا لَهُمُ الْحَرَامَ فَاتَّبَعُوهُمْ فَذَلِكَ عِبَادَتُهُمْ إِيَّاهُم»
(Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.) The Messenger of Allah said to `Adi,
«يَا عَدِيُّ مَا تَقُولُ؟ أَيُفِرُّكَ أَنْ يُقَالَ: اللهُ أَكْبَرَ؟ فَهَلْ تَعْلَمُ شَيْئًا أَكْبَرَ مِنَ اللهِ؟ مَا يُفِرُّكَ؟ أَيُفِرُّكَ أَنْ يُقَالَ: لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ؟ فَهَلْ تَعْلَمُ مَنْ إِلهٌ إِلَّا اللهُ؟»
(O
Adi what do you say Did you run away (to Ash-Sham) so that 'Allahu Akbar' (Allah is the Great) is not pronounced? Do you know of anything greater than Allah? What made you run away? Did you run away so that La ilaha illallah’ is not pronounced? Do you know of any deity worthy of worship except Allah)The Messenger invited
Adi to embrace Islam, and he embraced Islam and pronounced the Testimony of Truth. The face of the Messenger of Allah beamed with pleasure and he said to Adi,«إِنَّ الْيَهُودَ مَغْضُوبٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَالنَّصَارَى ضَالُّون»
(Verily, the Jews have earned the anger (of Allah) and the Christians are misguided.) Hudhayfah bin Al-Yaman,
Abdullah bin Abbas and several others said about the explanation of,اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah…) that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said,
وَمَآ أُمِرُواْ إِلاَّ لِيَعْبُدُواْ إِلَـهاً وَحِداً]
(while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to;
لاَّ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ سُبْحَـنَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ]
(None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
S
SonofAdam
Guest
Coder said
God= The Father
God= The Son
God= The Holy Spirit
Question- Is this true;
God= The Father
God= The Son
God= The Holy Spirit
S
SonofAdam
Guest
Following innovated teachings in religion and not practicing the religion with knowledge leads to confusion and disaster.
This is why Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) cautioned us saying:
“… Beware of matters newly begun, for every innovation is misguidance.”
and
“Whoever innovates a matter into the deen which is not from it, would be rejected.”
Ibn Kathir continues…
(1:7. The way of those upon whom You have bestowed Your grace, not (that) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray).
We mentioned the Hadith in which the servant proclaims,
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ ]
(Guide us to the straight way) and Allah says, "This is for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asks for.’’ Allah’s statement.
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ]
(The way of those upon whom You have bestowed Your grace) defines the path. `Those upon whom Allah has bestowed His grace’ are those mentioned in Surat An-Nisa’ (chapter 4), when Allah said,
وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَآءِ وَالصَّـلِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـئِكَ رَفِيقاً - ذلِكَ الْفَضْلُ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ عَلِيماً ]
(**And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad **), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His grace, the Prophets, the Siddiqin (the truly faithful), the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are! Such is the bounty from Allah, and Allah is sufficient to know) (4:69-70).
Allah’s statement,
غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّآلِّينَ]
(Not (the way) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray) meaning guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed Your grace, that is, the people of guidance, sincerity and obedience to Allah and His Messengers. They are the people who adhere to Allah’s commandments and refrain from committing what He has prohibited. But, help us to avoid the path of those whom Allah is angry with, whose intentions are corrupt, who know the truth, yet deviate from it. Also, help us avoid the path of those who were led astray, who lost the true knowledge and, as a result, are wandering in misguidance, unable to find the correct path. Allah asserted that the two paths He described here are both misguided when He repeated the negation
This is why they were led astray. We should also mention that both the Christians and the Jews have earned the anger and are led astray, but the anger is one of the attributes more particular of the Jews. Allah said about the Jews,
مَن لَّعَنَهُ اللَّهُ وَغَضِبَ عَلَيْهِ]
(Those (Jews) who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath) (5:60).
The attribute that the Christians deserve most is that of being led astray, just as Allah said about them,
قَدْ ضَلُّواْ مِن قَبْلُ وَأَضَلُّواْ كَثِيراً وَضَلُّواْ عَن سَوَآءِ السَّبِيلِ]
(Who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path) (5:77).
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
This is why Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) cautioned us saying:
“… Beware of matters newly begun, for every innovation is misguidance.”
and
“Whoever innovates a matter into the deen which is not from it, would be rejected.”
Ibn Kathir continues…
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّآلِّينَ ]
(1:7. The way of those upon whom You have bestowed Your grace, not (that) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray).
We mentioned the Hadith in which the servant proclaims,
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ ]
(Guide us to the straight way) and Allah says, "This is for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asks for.’’ Allah’s statement.
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ]
(The way of those upon whom You have bestowed Your grace) defines the path. `Those upon whom Allah has bestowed His grace’ are those mentioned in Surat An-Nisa’ (chapter 4), when Allah said,
وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَآءِ وَالصَّـلِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـئِكَ رَفِيقاً - ذلِكَ الْفَضْلُ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ عَلِيماً ]
(**And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad **), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His grace, the Prophets, the Siddiqin (the truly faithful), the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are! Such is the bounty from Allah, and Allah is sufficient to know) (4:69-70).
Allah’s statement,
غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّآلِّينَ]
(Not (the way) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray) meaning guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed Your grace, that is, the people of guidance, sincerity and obedience to Allah and His Messengers. They are the people who adhere to Allah’s commandments and refrain from committing what He has prohibited. But, help us to avoid the path of those whom Allah is angry with, whose intentions are corrupt, who know the truth, yet deviate from it. Also, help us avoid the path of those who were led astray, who lost the true knowledge and, as a result, are wandering in misguidance, unable to find the correct path. Allah asserted that the two paths He described here are both misguided when He repeated the negation
not'. These two paths are the paths of the Christians and Jews, a fact that the believer should beware of so that he avoids them. The path of the believers is knowledge of the truth and abiding by it. In comparison, the Jews abandoned practicing the religion, while the Christians lost the true knowledge. This is why anger’ descended upon the Jews, while being described as `led astray’ is more appropriate of the Christians. Those who know, but avoid implementing the truth, deserve the anger, unlike those who are ignorant. The Christians want to seek the true knowledge, but are unable to find it because they did not seek it from its proper resources.This is why they were led astray. We should also mention that both the Christians and the Jews have earned the anger and are led astray, but the anger is one of the attributes more particular of the Jews. Allah said about the Jews,
مَن لَّعَنَهُ اللَّهُ وَغَضِبَ عَلَيْهِ]
(Those (Jews) who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath) (5:60).
The attribute that the Christians deserve most is that of being led astray, just as Allah said about them,
قَدْ ضَلُّواْ مِن قَبْلُ وَأَضَلُّواْ كَثِيراً وَضَلُّواْ عَن سَوَآءِ السَّبِيلِ]
(Who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path) (5:77).
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
C
Coder
Guest
I think that we should show more respect to God than to relate a math equation to Him.
God has revealed that He has a Son and that He helps us with the Holy Spirit. We rejoice in this.
Rather than seek to define God as a being that we are “comfortable with” as humans we gratefully receive God who has revealed Himself to us even if it involves mystery. As I explained, we don’t even understand time and gravity.
C
Coder
Guest
God has revealed to us that He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not innovation.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Coder, thank you for that second link.
I had a question about why He said ONLY the Father knows, BUT, that appears to be a translation issue. The DR reads, “31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is. 34 Even as a man who going into a far country, left his house; and gave authority to his servants over every work, and commanded the porter to watch.”
It does not have, “only” in the passage. Methinks the issue with the Holy Spirit is a translation issue because Jesus doesn’t mention that the Holy Spirit doesn’t know, just that the Father does know and the Son isn’t telling us. It doesn’t mention the HS one way or the other. Furthermore, the explination for the underlined: 32 “Nor the Son”… Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgment, but that he knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is, he knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient.
drbo.org/chapter/48013.htm
I had a question about why He said ONLY the Father knows, BUT, that appears to be a translation issue. The DR reads, “31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is. 34 Even as a man who going into a far country, left his house; and gave authority to his servants over every work, and commanded the porter to watch.”
It does not have, “only” in the passage. Methinks the issue with the Holy Spirit is a translation issue because Jesus doesn’t mention that the Holy Spirit doesn’t know, just that the Father does know and the Son isn’t telling us. It doesn’t mention the HS one way or the other. Furthermore, the explination for the underlined: 32 “Nor the Son”… Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgment, but that he knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is, he knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient.
drbo.org/chapter/48013.htm
C
Cachonga
Guest
I would like to say “Thanks!” to SonofAdam for the Qur’an lesson (even though it has moved us way off topic). Since we’re here, though, I would point out that Jesus did accept worship (Matt 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, and John 9:38). Would a mere prophet do that? We see in John 20:28 that ‘Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”’ (RSV) in recognition of who Jesus was (what prophet would accept that kind of acknowledgement?). In regard to the claim that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place, and God only made the person “appear” to be Jesus, this completely contradicts the testimony of the New Testament writers. Why should I disregard the eye witness testimony of these men and accept the testimony of someone claiming to be a prophet hundreds of years after the fact?
As this is way off topic, I will simply post them as rhetorical questions, and will not respond to any answers you may post on this thread.
As this is way off topic, I will simply post them as rhetorical questions, and will not respond to any answers you may post on this thread.
S
SonofAdam
Guest
What you called a ‘math equation’ was just an example to understand what is being said about what God is from the catholic perspective once again unfortunately]
Coder says
Since God Almighty sent His Messenger to teach a clear teaching where does Jesus make this explicit claim?
Also you fall into problems on which verses to take literally because they conflict with other verses.
Jesus is reported to have said
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1 John 4
12 No man hath seen God at any time…’
etc.
What is said about what Nebuchnadnezzar did to Prophet Daniel(peace be upon him):
Daniel 2:46-48
46Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
47The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Do you accept Daniel(peace be upon him) to be God? [no]
Again please bring explicit evidences not ambiguities. [if any]
- Status