Mark 5:12

[jcunningham352]

I had a question about Mark 5:12
“so that ‘they may look and not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’”

Does this mean that God makes us not perceive Him as to keep us from Him? I’m very confused :S

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I had a question about Mark 5:12
“so that ‘they may look and not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’”

Does this mean that God makes us not perceive Him as to keep us from Him? I’m very confused :S

I think you mean Mark 4:12.
Go to Matthew 12:13-15 where the same saying of Jesus is recorded, and you can see that a prophecy of Isaiah is what Jesus is referring to.
In passage verse 15, it says "For [for=because] the heart of this people became dull, and with their ears they scarcely heard, and they shut their eyes lest they see with the eyes and hear with the ears and
understand with the heart, and return and I heal them.

It is the people themselves who do not want to listen or to see.
Isaiah said something like “I will open my mouth in parables, and utter dark sayings from the foundations of order.” Order means a house well ordered and furnished (in Greek it’s Cosmos, from which we get, eg: cosmopolitan – an ordered city.)

Consider, in the Beginning (which is Genesis) looking to Adam and his son Abel, and also Cain. The purpose of these people had was to fill the earth and subdue it (put it back in order). If you look again at Jesus’ saying – the same idea is repeated in the parables; Growth of good things, and removal of bad things. Also notice, the crowds don’t bother to ask the meaning of these parables – they don’t seem to really understand that they are important – or else, they don’t want to know… They are people who are already outside the church by their choices.

Hope this gives you an inkling… Perhaps others will have more in depth commentary. I’m just looking at the passage, and not researching exactly what Isaiah said, and the context of his prophecy – which is quite important in interpreting these kinds of passages, because there are often clues to the particular issues Jesus is addressing.

But I hope this gives you an inkling…
It really isn’t about God closing their eyes; it’s about his choosing to withhold forgiveness at least for a time. (There is only one sin that can’t be forgiven – the sin that never stops being done.)

 

[po18guy]

This is from the Haydock commentary on this verse:

That seeing they may see, &c. In punishment of their wilfully shutting their eyes, (Matthew xiii. 15.) God justly withdrew those lights and graces which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion. (Challoner) — These speeches here and elsewhere, we are not to understand as if he spoke in parables to this end that the hearers might not understand, lest they should be converted; but we must learn the true sense from the corresponding texts in Matthew xiii, and Acts xxviii, where our Saviour and St. Paul render it thus: with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut. lest, perhaps, they may see, and understand, and be converted, and I heal them. Whereby it is evident, that the speaking in parables was not the cause, (for many besides the apostles heard and understood) but themselves, who would not hear and understand, and be converted: and thus they were the real cause of their own wilful and obstinate infidelity. And therefore also he spoke in parables, because they were not worthy to understand, as the others were to whom he expounded them.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is commentary from the Catena Aurea

Pseudo-Chrys., Vict. Ant. e Cat. in Marc.: As if He said unto them, You that are worthy to be taught all things which are fitted for teaching, shall learn the manifestation of parables; but I use parables with them who are unworthy to learn, because of their wickedness. For it was right that they who did not hold fast their obedience to that law which they had received, should not have any share in a new teaching, but should be estranged from both; for He shewed by the obedience of His disciples, that, on the other hand, the others were become unworthy of mystical doctrine. But afterwards, by bringing in a voice from prophecy, He confounds [p. 76] their wickedness, as having been long before reproved.

Wherefore it goes on, “that seeing they might see, and not perceive, &c.” [see Isa 6:9] as if He said that they prophecy might be fulfilled which foretells these things.

Theophylact: For it was God Who made them to see, that is, to understand what is good. But they themselves see not, of their own will making themselves not to see, lest they should be converted and correct themselves, as if they were displeased at their own salvation.

It goes on, “Lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them.”

Pseudo-Chrys., Vict. Ant. e Cat. in Marc.: Thus, therefore, they see and they do not see, they hear and do not understand, for their seeing and hearing comes to them from God’s grace, but their seeing and not understanding comes to them from their unwillingness to receive grace, and closing their eyes, and pretending that they could not see; neither do they acquiesce in what was said, and so are not changed as to their sins by hearing and seeing, but rather are made worse.

Theophylact: Or we may understand in a different way His speaking to the rest in parables, that seeing they might not perceive, and hearing, not understand. For God gives sight and understanding to men who seek for them, but the rest He blinds, lest it become a greater accusation against them, that though they understood, they did not choose to do what they ought.

Wherefore it goes on, “Lest at any times they should be, &c.”

Augustine, Quaest, 14, in Matt.: Or else they deserved this, their not understanding, and yet this in itself was done in mercy to them, that they might know their sins, and, being converted, merit pardon.

Bede: To those then who are without, all things are done in parables, that is, both the actions and the words of the Saviour, because neither in those miracles which He was working, nor in those mysteries which He preached, were they able to acknowledge Him as God. Therefore they are not able to attain to the remission of their sins.

Pseudo-Chrys., Vict. Ant. e Cat. in Marc.: But His speaking to them only in parables, and yet not leaving off speaking to them entirely, shews that to those who are placed near to what is good, though they may have no good in themselves, still good is shewn disguised.

But when a man approaches it with reverence and a right heart, he wins for himself an abundant revelation of mysteries; when on the contrary his thoughts are not sound, [p. 77] he will be neither made worthy of those things which are easy to many men, nor even of hearing them.

There follows, “And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable, how then shall ye know all parables?”

Pseudo-Jerome: For it was necessary that they to whom He spoke in parables should ask for what they did not understand, and learn by the Apostle whom they despised, the mystery of the kingdom which they themselves had not.