Mark your calendar

[vern_humphrey]

Lisa4Catholics:

My uncle is Jewish man whose parents,siblings and one uncle who now lives in Jeruselems were the only ones who survived that mess They escaped from Poland It is bad enough you are calling on soldiers to dessert and lead other soldiers to more danger,but you need to leave World War 2 out of it befoe I start posting pictures of the reasons we went there:tsktsk:

Lisa, we’re dealing with people here who have a pathological hatred of America and all it stands for.

You cannot convince them with reason – they do not work on reason. You cannot convince them with shame – they have no shame.

They chortle over the death of every American soldier, rubbing their hands with glee, and wishing for more.

 

[shockerfan]

vern humphrey:

Lisa, we’re dealing with people here who have a pathological hatred of America and all it stands for.

You cannot convince them with reason – they do not work on reason. You cannot convince them with shame – they have no shame.

They chortle over the death of every American soldier, rubbing their hands with glee, and wishing for more.

Vern, you are wise. The people you describe argue from the following viewpoints:

1. America is generally evil.
2. Iraq was better off with Saddam
3. Freedom is not worth fighting for
4. Any act of war is always about money
5. Any act of George Bush is evil. If GW said that dog doo-doo stinks, they would say he’s wrong and that it smells like roses.

 

[vern_humphrey]

shockerfan:

Vern, you are wise. The people you describe argue from the following viewpoints:

1. America is generally evil.
2. Iraq was better off with Saddam
3. Freedom is not worth fighting for
4. Any act of war is always about money
5. Any act of George Bush is evil. If GW said that dog doo-doo stinks, they would say he’s wrong and that it smells like roses.

So here’s the plan – we put out a press release saying, “George W. Bush says dog doo-doo stinks.” And wait to see who starts using it for perfume.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

gilliam:

Steve,

Where they go wrong is in saying we now need to pull out of Iraq, predicting doom and gloom, thereby undermining morale at home and abroad, or badmouthing the efforts of our soldiers who are currently in Iraq. The effort that is currently being pursued by the US, UK, AUS, Japan and others to protect Iraqis until they can govern themselves is not only endorsed by the Vatican, the Vatican has come out and urged other countries to participate.

Keep and spread the Faith, yes, please do so. Incessant harping on why the US should have or should not have liberated Iraq in the first place doesn’t help the current efforts now at all.

You are either with us now or not. Your choice.

This argument is similar to the contention that a burglar shouldn’t leave your home if he’s been successful at breaking into it. The U.S. Army has no more right to be occupying Baghdad than the Egyptian army has to be occupying New York.

The statement of Cardinal Angelo Sodano about acknowledging the current *de facto * situation in Iraq can’t be construed as an endorsement of the U.S. occupation of a country that the United States should never have invaded in the first place.

The actual motives behind the U.S. attack on Iraq had nothing to do with “liberation,” or with the alleged weapons of mass destruction–weapons that have never been produced. Among those motives were–to be concise–empire, oil, and Israel.

If a foreign country were to invade the United States unjustly, the invader would be morally and legally obliged to withdraw from our territory without delay. By the same token, both morality and international law demand that the United States pull its troops out of Iraq immediately. The way for Americans to “support our troops” is to insist that our troops be brought home before any more G.I.'s are killed or wounded in an injust occupation.

On the supposition of a U.S. withdrawal, it’s up to the Iraqis, and no one else, to decide whether or not to exercise their option of calling on the U.N. Security Council or the Arab League to send in peacekeeping troops from other Muslim countries to ensure security during the transition to a fully indigenous and democratic government.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Steve O'Brien:

The actual motives behind the U.S. attack on Iraq had nothing to do with “liberation,” or with the alleged weapons of mass destruction–weapons that have never been produced. Among those motives were–to be concise–empire, oil, and Israel.

If you hate the United States that much, there are no laws to prevent you from leaving.

 

[gilliam]

Steve O'Brien:

This argument is similar to the contention that a burglar shouldn’t leave your home if he’s been successful at breaking into it. .

No it isn’t. At least the Vatican and the international community don’t think we are any more burglars in Iraq as we were when we liberated Germany and Vichey France.

Again, the Vatican wants us to stay in Iraq until the Iraqis can get on their feet and protect themselves.

I really am at a loss as to why you don’t.

 

[vern_humphrey]

gilliam:

No it isn’t. At least the Vatican and the international community don’t think we are any more burglars in Iraq as we were when we liberated Germany and Vicey France.

Again, the Vatican wants us to stay in Iraq until the Iraqis can get on their feet and protect themselves.

I really am at a loss as to why you don’t.

The Hate America Crowd hate America – that’s their self-identity. Take that away, and they’d have nothing left. You can’t expect them to give up their hatred with arguments based on mere facts and logic.

 

[gnjsdad]

vern humphrey:

If you hate the United States that much, there are no laws to prevent you from leaving.

As I’ve said in other posts, when the arguments fail, the personal attacks intensify.

There is nothing in Steve O’Brien’s posts which warrants such an attack

 

[vern_humphrey]

gnjsdad:

As I’ve said in other posts, when the arguments fail, the personal attacks intensify.

There is nothing in Steve O’Brien’s posts which warrants such an attack

Steve O'Brien:

The actual motives behind the U.S. attack on Iraq had nothing to do with “liberation,” or with the alleged weapons of mass destruction–weapons that have never been produced. Among those motives were–to be concise–empire, oil, and Israel.

 

[gilliam]

gnjsdad:

As I’ve said in other posts, when the arguments fail, the personal attacks intensify.

There is nothing in Steve O’Brien’s posts which warrants such an attack

Personal attacks are tempting, but should be avoided at all cost. I am not without blemish here.

Also “America, love it or leave it” never rang very true for me. I think you can disagree with the current government in the US and still love it.

I have a much harder time when people don’t love their fellow man in Iraq and want us to run away and let them die by the millions. That is simply unChristian. So I would really like those on the non-Liberation of Iraq side to please refrain from asking us to leave until the Iraqis can stand on their own. A US soldier’s life is not worth more than an Iraqi girl’s life

 

[aimee]

gilliam:

Personal attacks are tempting, but should be avoided at all cost. I am not without blemish here.

Also “America, love it or leave it” never rang very true for me. I think you can disagree with the current government in the US and still love it.

I have a much harder time when people don’t love their fellow man in Iraq and want us to run away and let them die by the millions. That is simply unChristian. So I would really like those on the non-Liberation of Iraq side to please refrain from asking us to leave until the Iraqis can stand on their own. A US soldier’s life is not worth more than an Iraqi girl’s life

personal attacks are tempting…I do agree…I shall refrain…
I say let them post…they soon reveal themselves…and I think Mr Obrien is on the verge…

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

The news reports of Cardinal Angelo Sodano’s October 2004 statement about the need to “rear and educate” the possibly “illegitimate” child (the government set up by the U.S. military in Iraq) mentioned a multinational, not a unilateral U.S., military presence. Again, the Iraqis have the right to call in peacekeeping troops from other Muslim nations–if they want to.

It’s a terrible mistake for American Catholics, or the Catholics of any other country, to confuse patriotism with jingoism or militarism, and, in so doing, to dissent from the Church’s teachings on peace and justice. We should all assimilate the teachings of the Magisterium on these topics. A good place to begin is the new catechism’s discussion of peace (sections 2302-2317).

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[gilliam]

Steve O'Brien:

The news reports of Cardinal Angelo Sodano’s October 2004 statement about the need to “rear and educate” the possibly “illegitimate” child (the government set up by the U.S. military in Iraq) mentioned a multinational, not a unilateral U.S., military presence. Again, the Iraqis have the right to call in peacekeeping troops from other Muslim nations–if they want to.

.

What other Muslim nation has troops that it can send in? Syria is out, they are Baathist. Iran is not trusted by Iraqis and their army is hated by many Iraqis because of what it did in the Iran-Iraq war to many Iraqis. Saudi Arabia is not trusted. Turkey is not trusted (Turkey would like some of Iraqi’s land in the north). In any case, Iraq gets to choose here. Right now they have chosen, of those nations who have volunteered, the ones who are there, including ours.

.

It’s a terrible mistake for American Catholics, or the Catholics of any other country, to confuse patriotism with jingoism or militarism, and, in so doing, to dissent from the Church’s teachings on peace and justice. We should all assimilate the teachings of the Magisterium on these topics. A good place to begin is the new catechism’s discussion of peace (sections 2302-2317).

Keep and spread the Faith.

I don’t know what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to justify not supporting our troops in Iraq today that are trying to support Iraq while it gets on her feet?

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

gilliam:

What other Muslim nation has troops that it can send in?

***Muslim Countries of the World ** *

Name Population % of Muslims
1 Afaganistan 18M 99%
2 Albania 2.3M 75%
3 Algeria 22M 98%
4 Bahrain .220M 99%
5 Bangladesh 100M 85%
6 Cameroon 6.2M 55%
7 Central African Republic 2M 55%
8 Chad 4M 85%
9 Dahomey 3M 60%
10 Egypt 51M 93%
11 Ethiopia 27M 65%
12 Gambia .4M 85%
13 Guinea 4.3M 95%
14 Guinea-Bissau .81M 70%
15 Indonesia 161M 95%
16 Iran 48M 98%
17 Iraq 14.5M 95%
18 Ivory Coast 5M 55%
19 Jordan 3M 95%
20 Kuwait 1M 98%
21 Lebanon 3M 57%
22 Libya 3M 100%
23 Malaysia 14.5M 52%
24 Maldive Islands 12M 100%
25 Mali 6M 90%
26 Mauritania 2M 100%
27 Morocco 24M 99%
28 Niger 4.5M 91%
29 Nigeria 100M 75%
30 Oman .75M 100%
31 Pakistan 90M 97%
32 Qatar .18M 100%
33 Saudi Arabia 10.5M 100
34 Senegal 7M 95%
35 Sierra Leone 3M 65%
36 Somalia 5M 100%
37 South Yemen 1.5M 95%
38 Sudan 22M 85%
39 Syria 11M 87%
40 Tanzania 15M 65%
41 Togo 2.1M 55%
42 Tunisia 7M 95%
43 Turkey 66M 99%
44 U.A.E .32M 100%
45 Upper Volta 6M 56%
46 North Yemen 6M 99%

Source:
members.tripod.com/arabicpaper/country.html

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[smackdaddy]

vern humphrey:

The Hate America Crowd hate America – that’s their self-identity. Take that away, and they’d have nothing left. You can’t expect them to give up their hatred with arguments based on mere facts and logic.

Vern, Vern, Vern…I don’t hate America as you seem to harp on in all your posts. As an American, I have the right, at least for now, to speak out against the government if I believe they are doing something wrong. I believe, as well as most of the world, that invading a country based on lies is wrong, I believe that killing thousands of innocent people is wrong. I refuse to support an administration that is leading America down the path to destruction. But if it makes you feel good to call me anti-American, or accuse me of being happy when American soldiers die…then knock yourself out.

 

[vern_humphrey]

smackdaddy:

Vern, Vern, Vern…I don’t hate America as you seem to harp on in all your posts.

Did someone else post this in your name?

smackdaddy:

If an American soldier, saillor, marine, airman, comes to realize that this war is immoral, and unjust, (which it is) then he/she is obligated to refuse to fight. What we need now more than anything is a mass desertion by our military men and women.

smackdaddy:

As an American, I have the right, at least for now, to speak out against the government if I believe they are doing something wrong.

But like all extremists, you would deny other people that same right. When you say your piece, I have a right to say mine – and your own words, quoted above are irresponsible at best.