Maronite Liturgy

[bkovacs]

Not to be rude. Please don’t take it the wrong way. But why does the Maronite Liturgy look more like the Novus Ordo Roman Rite Mass, instead of the liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Shouldn’t they be similar. I noticed in the Maronite Liturgy the priest facing the people rather than God, and contemporary music vs chant. Is this also a Vatican 2 generated reform, like what happened to the Roman Rite. I read on the Maronite website about a reform of the Qurbono. stmaron.org/1qurbono.html

This is the Syriac Orthodox Liturgy
youtube.com/watch?v=yWChywFF9eQ

And this the Maronite
youtube.com/watch?v=TdrEsc8IPYY

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

from everything i’ve read and heard, the Maronites are the most “latin” of the Eastern Churches and dont’ seem to want to follow the commands (for lack of a better word) of Vatican 2 to return to their authentic Eastern roots.
I think it’s a real shame. I’ve discovered that I’ve come to adore the Maronite Church. I find it fascinating and if I ever have the opportunity to attend their Holy Quorbono, i’d jump all over it! Unfortunately, I suspect that as you have said, it will be highly “Novus Ordo” in style …that is something I do NOT want! what really bugs me is that they have stuck with the Latin practice of delaying First Holy Communion(at least the churces here in the USA). I think they like the idea of little kids dressing up and stuff and the whole big party thing that comes after…although I find it a nuisance!

 

[Harpazo]

Not to be rude. Please don’t take it the wrong way. But why does the Maronite Liturgy look more like the Novus Ordo Roman Rite Mass, instead of the liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Shouldn’t they be similar. I noticed in the Maronite Liturgy the priest facing the people rather than God, and contemporary music vs chant. Is this also a Vatican 2 generated reform, like what happened to the Roman Rite. I read on the Maronite website about a reform of the Qurbono. stmaron.org/1qurbono.html

This is the Syriac Orthodox Liturgy
youtube.com/watch?v=yWChywFF9eQ

And this the Maronite
youtube.com/watch?v=TdrEsc8IPYY

If you look at pictures of the Maronite Liturgy from Pre-V2, you will see that it resembled almost a Latin Mass with the church architecture, vestments, etc. The Maronites have been urged, like the other Eastern Catholic churches to return to their original roots and shed latinizations. However, many Maronites do not know the difference between a latinized Maronite church and an authentic Maronite church. So they have adopted many of the Novus Ordo-esque features. Some Maronite priests (and God bless 'em!) are slowly trying to reintroduce

It is somewhat hard to say what the authentic Maronite church looked like because most of the liturgical texts and history was destroyed by the Latins in the 16th century, I believe. Their liturgy was altered to a great extent and mandatory celibacy may have been imposed (although I am not sure). The priest at the Maronite parish I attended for 18 months was non-Lebanese, but raised Maronite. He truly despised the latinizations and was frustrated that Latins from nearby parishes had come there and imposed more latinizations to the point that people think it is authentic Maronite spirituality to be Latin.

I think by now he has removed the kneelers, but I believe he is still battling with the guitarists and the “Gather” hymnalists. He allows a Syriac Orthodox mission to use the church on Saturdays a few times a month. The Syriac bishop was so grateful that he gave Abuna a set of very nice vestments and some slick shoes, too. I asked him once if the Maronites could look to the Syriac Orthodox for a return to their authentic traditions. He told me that they could for a few things, but a good deal of the history is gone.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[bpbasilphx]

\ I noticed in the Maronite Liturgy the priest facing the people rather than God, \

Since God is omnipresent, wheresoever the priest faces, he faces God.

 

[bkovacs]

He may be omnipresent. But as the Holy Father has alluded to. The priest should not form a closed circle with the congregation. But should face God in the direction of east with the congregation. So that he does not bring attention unto himself, but God.

 

[dzheremi]

If I may, since the OP posted Youtube videos to show the “latinized” form of the Maronite liturgy (which, yes, is cringe-worthy in the extreme), point everybody to a Maronite channel on Youtube that I have come to love that features some more traditional hymns from different parts of the Qurbono, almost always with the words in Syriac and English translation: Youtube account “Maronites”

An example from the excellent “My Maronite Heritage” series: Qadishat Aloho (the Trisagion/Thrice Holy in Syriac)

 

[Harpazo]

If I may, since the OP posted Youtube videos to show the “latinized” form of the Maronite liturgy (which, yes, is cringe-worthy in the extreme), point everybody to a Maronite channel on Youtube that I have come to love that features some more traditional hymns from different parts of the Qurbono, almost always with the words in Syriac and English translation: Youtube account “Maronites”

An example from the excellent “My Maronite Heritage” series: Qadishat Aloho (the Trisagion/Thrice Holy in Syriac)

Thank you for this. I agree that these more traditional hymns are what I loved about the Maronite church when I was there. The Trisagion in Syriac is beautiful.

The priest at the church I went to said that they would have new liturgical books soon with a slightly revised celebration of the liturgy to help weed out latinizations (this was over a year ago). Does anyone know if this happened yet?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[NYer]

Not to be rude. Please don’t take it the wrong way. But why does the Maronite Liturgy look more like the Novus Ordo Roman Rite Mass, instead of the liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Shouldn’t they be similar. I noticed in the Maronite Liturgy the priest facing the people rather than God, and contemporary music vs chant. Is this also a Vatican 2 generated reform, like what happened to the Roman Rite. I read on the Maronite website about a reform of the Qurbono. stmaron.org/1qurbono.html

This is the Syriac Orthodox Liturgy
youtube.com/watch?v=yWChywFF9eQ

And this the Maronite
youtube.com/watch?v=TdrEsc8IPYY

You do not specify which Maronite Church you attended, not that it really makes a difference. Our Maronite parish follows the norms of the Antiochene Church in its liturgy, which is chanted in both English and Syriac. It took our organist a long time to hand write the music to be followed as there are very few resources. You can learn more about the history of the liturgical reforms at the following link.

stgeorgesa.org/explanation_of_the_maronite_divi.htm

In 2003, Mar Nasrallah Cardinal Pierre Sfeir, Patriarch of the Maronite Church, convened a Synod in part to develop a plan for the future direction of the liturgy. Since the Maronites have spread to all corners of the globe, their liturgies are being translated into various languages, without any systematic approach. It was agreed at the Synod to develop official translations into the 4 most common languages: Arabic, English, French and Spanish. This will take years to implement.

If you have the time and patience, you can learn more at the Synod’s official site: maronitesynod.com/index-new-eng.htm

It is also worth noting that we attend liturgy for the purpose of worshipping God. As another poster commented, the direction in which the priest faces is always towards God who is omnipresent. The Maronite Divine Liturgy is a beautiful and reverent form of worship. To hear the words of Institution chanted in Aramaic is like being at the Last Supper.

Pax et Bonum

 

[malphono]

The priest at the church I went to said that they would have new liturgical books soon with a slightly revised celebration of the liturgy to help weed out latinizations (this was over a year ago). Does anyone know if this happened yet?

The so-called “new books” are not yet published, but they will in no way “weed out” any of the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations that continue to plague the Maronite Church. In fact, they will (very sadly) highlight yet more Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.

 

[malphono]

If you look at pictures of the Maronite Liturgy from Pre-V2, you will see that it resembled almost a Latin Mass with the church architecture, vestments, etc. The Maronites have been urged, like the other Eastern Catholic churches to return to their original roots and shed latinizations. However, many Maronites do not know the difference between a latinized Maronite church and an authentic Maronite church. So they have adopted many of the Novus Ordo-esque features. Some Maronite priests (and God bless 'em!) are slowly trying to reintroduce
Harpazo;6001692:

It is somewhat hard to say what the authentic Maronite church looked like because most of the liturgical texts and history was destroyed by the Latins in the 16th century, I believe.

Their liturgy was altered to a great extent and mandatory celibacy may have been imposed (although I am not sure). The priest at the Maronite parish I attended for 18 months was non-Lebanese, but raised Maronite. He truly despised the latinizations and was frustrated that Latins from nearby parishes had come there and imposed more latinizations to the point that people think it is authentic Maronite spirituality to be Latin.

I think by now he has removed the kneelers, but I believe he is still battling with the guitarists and the “Gather” hymnalists. He allows a Syriac Orthodox mission to use the church on Saturdays a few times a month. The Syriac bishop was so grateful that he gave Abuna a set of very nice vestments and some slick shoes, too. I asked him once if the Maronites could look to the Syriac Orthodox for a return to their authentic traditions. He told me that they could for a few things, but a good deal of the history is gone.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[malphono]

If you look at pictures of the Maronite Liturgy from Pre-V2, you will see that it resembled almost a Latin Mass with the church architecture, vestments, etc.

See my comment below, and in a variety of previous threads in this forum.

It is somewhat hard to say what the authentic Maronite church looked like because most of the liturgical texts and history was destroyed by the Latins in the 16th century, I believe.

Where did that come from? In any case, it’s not quite correct.

Their liturgy was altered to a great extent and mandatory celibacy may have been imposed (although I am not sure).

The latinizations of the 16th century were primarily in externals (vestments, furnishings, etc) and rubrics. For the most part, the texts were left alone. And, BTW, clerical celibacy was never imposed or adopted.

 

[malphono]

In 2003, Mar Nasrallah Cardinal Pierre Sfeir, Patriarch of the Maronite Church, convened a Synod in part to develop a plan for the future direction of the liturgy.

The results of which are yet more and continuing Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.

 

[malphono]

Since God is omnipresent, wheresoever the priest faces, he faces God.

Yes, that’s all fine and dandy, but you and I both well know that the correct posture is ad orientem. This versus populum business that is rampant among the Maronites is but another of the myriad and sundry Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yes, that’s all fine and dandy, but you and I both well know that the correct posture is ad orientem. This versus populum business that is rampant among the Maronites is but another of the myriad and sundry Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.

I have no reason to not believe that the preferred posture in the Maronite Liturgy is ad orientum.

I also know that in many Eastern Catholic churches, there was a lot of metooism, based on a certain amount of inferiority feelings. Centuries of being told that the Roman rite was the pre-eminent and perfect rite and the more an Eastern liturgy resembled the Roman, the more perfect it was, certainly took its toll.

But based on Psalm 139/138LXX, whichever way we face, we’re facing God.

 

[Harpazo]

Where did that come from? In any case, it’s not quite correct.

Just going by what Abuna told me at the Maronite church. He taught a class on Wednesday nights at the parish and we talked about Maronite history. The Jesuits were responsible for destroying much of the Maronite history and liturgical texts. Is this completely incorrect?

The latinizations of the 16th century were primarily in externals (vestments, furnishings, etc) and rubrics. For the most part, the texts were left alone. And, BTW, clerical celibacy was never imposed or adopted.

I’m not too sure about this. It seems like it went much deeper than that. Clerical celibacy was imposed in the diaspora, right? This affected all ECs, however. Are Maronite priests in, say Brazil, allowed to be married prior to ordination?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Aramis]

Just going by what Abuna told me at the Maronite church. He taught a class on Wednesday nights at the parish and we talked about Maronite history. The Jesuits were responsible for destroying much of the Maronite history and liturgical texts. Is this completely incorrect?

I’ve read that yes, the texts themselves were, but not until new ones were imposed with the old liturgy, and the minor revisions required by rome. (Papal commemorations, IIRC.)

 

[malphono]

Just going by what Abuna told me at the Maronite church. He taught a class on Wednesday nights at the parish and we talked about Maronite history. The Jesuits were responsible for destroying much of the Maronite history and liturgical texts. Is this completely incorrect?

This entire topic has come up before, several times actually. Rather than repeat myself, I’ll refer to one such previous [thread=291165]thread[/thread] including this [post=4507392]post[/post].

I’m not too sure about this. It seems like it went much deeper than that. Clerical celibacy was imposed in the diaspora, right? This affected all ECs, however. Are Maronite priests in, say Brazil, allowed to be married prior to ordination?

I’m quite sure. Clerical celibacy has never been mandated in the Patriarchal Territories. In the diaspora, yes, but as you say, that was the case with the East and Orient as a whole. Brazil is part of the diaspora, so the restriction would have applied there. Interestingly enough, though, there were a couple of married Maronite priests ministering in France during those times.

These days, it’s really up to the local ordinary to accept married clergy. In the US it’s not done. I don’t know about elsewhere in the diaspora.

 

[5Loaves]

He allows a Syriac Orthodox mission to use the church on Saturdays a few times a month. The Syriac bishop was so grateful that he gave Abuna a set of very nice vestments and some slick shoes, too.
In Christ,
Andrew

That is really good to hear such nice reciprocity.

point everybody to a Maronite channel on Youtube that I have come to love that features some more traditional hymns from different parts of the Qurbono, almost always with the words in Syriac and English translation: Youtube account “Maronites”

An example from the excellent “My Maronite Heritage” series: Qadishat Aloho (the Trisagion/Thrice Holy in Syriac)

Thanks for those links.

 

[StillWondering]

I’ve read that yes, the texts themselves were, but not until new ones were imposed with the old liturgy, and the minor revisions required by rome. (Papal commemorations, IIRC.)

Oh, so it sounds like there are more to the story then what Harpazo heard.

That sucks since half-stories causes too many problems in talks of history and tradition.

 

[Aramis]

Oh, so it sounds like there are more to the story then what Harpazo heard.

That sucks since half-stories causes too many problems in talks of history and tradition.

It was still a trauma, for Rome only approved some of the anaphorae, not all. It has been described as a pruning of the Maronite tradition. There may also have been some changes to the anaphorae which were approved.