Maronite Monks of Adoration

[Formosus]

Ciero,

Your above observations apply to the Maronite Church, not just this monastery.

Father,

I can not speak for Ciero, but it would be difficult to deny that the Maronite Church still suffers greatly from Latinization (both some of the old kind, and the new modernist variation). I have a deep love for the Maronite people and their spirituality, but to say their church is free of Latinizations would be to ignore reality.

 

[frmgc]

Holy Father … I do NOT believe I have born false witness against you or your monastery. … But to claim that certain practices are not a Latinization is just untrue. So having said that I will respond to your post.

Beloved Brother,

I accept you clarifications. I do not accuse you of false witness. What concerned me was what appeared to be false witness. Which is why I stated it this way: “you seem to be bearing false witness against the priests and monks of this monastery.” Allow me to explain.

You asserted that “there was nothing really Maronite about the place”.

Nothing? Really? The entire liturgy we pray is Maronite. No Latinizations.

And you say: “they served the Maronite Liturgy with Latinizations…looked nothing like the Maronite Liturgies I have attended in the Lebanon.”

If you mean the priest facing the people then not only I but even the Holy See agrees with you, saying: “Such practice [facing “east” at the altar], threatened in numerous Eastern Catholic Churches by a new and recent Latin influence, is thus of profound value and should be safeguarded as truly coherent with the Eastern liturgical spirituality” (see: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/Istruzione/pdf/istruzione_inglese.pdf ). That statement was made 15 years ago … seemingly to deaf ears.

My point is NOT that there are not Latinizations among Maronites … but WE did not introduce them. As for the kind that have been in use for hundreds of years, where do you draw the line at what is “purifying” the liturgy and what is “archeologism”?

First off…just look at the name of your monastery and it’s focus. “Adoration” is hardly a traditional Maronite practice…no matter how you spin it.

All the monks of the east, Maronite or other, have prayed the liturgy in a church (or in a cave) in the presence of Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist. This is adoration in its first instance. (I mentioned that in the video). Outside of liturgy, we have our individual prayer made also in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament … as we mentioned, just like St. Nimtallah Hardini and St. Sharbel. Archbishop Zayek answered this criticism of our having the Eucharist exposed for adoration/private prayer, saying:
“St. Sharbel adored the Eucharist with the tabernacle door closed, the monks of Petersham do it with the door opened. Big difference.”

Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament (as venerable a tradition it is in the West) has no foundation anywhere in the East.

If you read the Servant of God, Fr. John Hardon’s book on the History of Eucharistic Adoration, the conclusion is: adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist is simply Christian and Catholic, given the truth we confess about the Eucharist. And the love of that truth has influenced Christians all through the centuries to ACT as if it were true. So, we want to pray in the presence of Christ. That’s not Eastern or Western, it’s simply Christian. Our retired patriarch agrees with the fact that it’s an Eastern and Western tradition.

Monks living a life of enclosure in a cloister…hardly Eastern…or traditional Maronite, probably done since contact with the French…but again a Latinization.

Did the monks in Egypt minister to parishes or teach schools? How about St. Simeon Stylite? Our life is more like the hermits of the East … but not necessarily like the recluses/solitaries. Again, this doesn’t touch the liturgy, but is a legitimate charism evidenced in eastern monastic history, not a Latinization.

So, that’s the case with all these things. Maronites in particular have sometimes consciously adopted Latin customs for a very simple reason: to be distinct from those not in communion with Rome. Sometimes this was at the request of the Holy See … and the Maronites’ desire to be faithful moved them to adopt such things. I don’t see that as a problem, even if in our era, the Holy See says: “get rid of Latinizations”.

My only reason for this post at all is after posting MY impression of a visit to your monastery, I was attacked by you as bearing false witness.

No, I didn’t attack you as bearing false witness. I invited you: “either produce evidence that can be examined or retract your serious charge against us. … you seem to be bearing false witness against the priests and monks of this monastery.”

From what I’ve been able to gather…the founder could not find a Latin Rite bishop to allow him to found a monastery within their jurisdiction…the Maronite bishop did…with all the Latinizations is tow!

This is one of the false claims you have not addressed. Our founder was permitted to establish a monastery in the Archdiocese of Boston in 1978 and remained there until about 1982 when the Maronites invited him to establish the monastery in the eparchy. He brought NO Latinizations with him. That’s the fact.

Begging your prayers and blessing.
Ciero

You can be sure of that, brother … that’s why we get fed! Pray for us, too.

United in adoration of Jesus,

fr. michael gilmary, mma

 

[ciero]

Beloved Brother,

I accept you clarifications. I do not accuse you of false witness. What concerned me was what appeared to be false witness. Which is why I stated it this way: “you seem to be bearing false witness against the priests and monks of this monastery.” Allow me to explain.

You asserted that “there was nothing really Maronite about the place”.

Nothing? Really? The entire liturgy we pray is Maronite. No Latinizations.

And you say: “they served the Maronite Liturgy with Latinizations…looked nothing like the Maronite Liturgies I have attended in the Lebanon.”

If you mean the priest facing the people then not only I but even the Holy See agrees with you, saying: “Such practice [facing “east” at the altar], threatened in numerous Eastern Catholic Churches by a new and recent Latin influence, is thus of profound value and should be safeguarded as truly coherent with the Eastern liturgical spirituality” (see: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/Istruzione/pdf/istruzione_inglese.pdf ). That statement was made 15 years ago … seemingly to deaf ears.

My point is NOT that there are not Latinizations among Maronites … but WE did not introduce them. As for the kind that have been in use for hundreds of years, where do you draw the line at what is “purifying” the liturgy and what is “archeologism”?

All the monks of the east, Maronite or other, have prayed the liturgy in a church (or in a cave) in the presence of Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist. This is adoration in its first instance. (I mentioned that in the video). Outside of liturgy, we have our individual prayer made also in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament … as we mentioned, just like St. Nimtallah Hardini and St. Sharbel. Archbishop Zayek answered this criticism of our having the Eucharist exposed for adoration/private prayer, saying:
“St. Sharbel adored the Eucharist with the tabernacle door closed, the monks of Petersham do it with the door opened. Big difference.”

If you read the Servant of God, Fr. John Hardon’s book on the History of Eucharistic Adoration, the conclusion is: adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist is simply Christian and Catholic, given the truth we confess about the Eucharist. And the love of that truth has influenced Christians all through the centuries to ACT as if it were true. So, we want to pray in the presence of Christ. That’s not Eastern or Western, it’s simply Christian. Our retired patriarch agrees with the fact that it’s an Eastern and Western tradition.

Did the monks in Egypt minister to parishes or teach schools? How about St. Simeon Stylite? Our life is more like the hermits of the East … but not necessarily like the recluses/solitaries. Again, this doesn’t touch the liturgy, but is a legitimate charism evidenced in eastern monastic history, not a Latinization.

So, that’s the case with all these things. Maronites in particular have sometimes consciously adopted Latin customs for a very simple reason: to be distinct from those not in communion with Rome. Sometimes this was at the request of the Holy See … and the Maronites’ desire to be faithful moved them to adopt such things. I don’t see that as a problem, even if in our era, the Holy See says: “get rid of Latinizations”.

No, I didn’t attack you as bearing false witness. I invited you: “either produce evidence that can be examined or retract your serious charge against us. … you seem to be bearing false witness against the priests and monks of this monastery.”

****This is one of the false claims you have not addressed. Our founder was permitted to establish a monastery in the Archdiocese of Boston in 1978 and remained there until about 1982 when the Maronites invited him to establish the monastery in the eparchy. He brought NO Latinizations with him. That’s the fact.

---

You can be sure of that, brother … that’s why we get fed! Pray for us, too.

United in adoration of Jesus,

fr. michael gilmary, mma

Your right…I missed this point…That is the story I was given when I visited your monastery many years ago…that the founder looked to the East for a bishop when he was unable to find a Latin bishop …this same story was told to me by Archimandrite Boniface from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in CA…he claimed that your founder and he(Fr Boniface) had the same problem at around the same time…no Latin bishop interested in founding a monastery so they both looked to the East.

I am very sorry if I got the story wrong…but that is what I was told.

Ciero

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Ciero,

Monks living a life of enclosure in a cloister…hardly Eastern…or traditional Maronite, probably done since contact with the French…but again a Latinization.

I can assure you this is not a Latinization, but is a Traditional form of monasticism in the ORIENTAL Tradition. In fact, the Latins borrowed it from US (i.e., the Oriental Tradition). The first cloistered monks were in fact from Syria.

I say this with all humility and kindness - please don’t confuse the Oriental Tradition with the Eastern Tradition. We have much that is similar, but also much that is distinctive. The Maronites are of the Oriental Tradition. As I noted in the “My Witness” thread a long time ago, the Oriental and Western Traditions also have much that is similar, and people unfamiliar with the Oriental Traditions can mistakenly accuse us of “Latinizations.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ciero]

Dear brother Ciero,

I can assure you this is not a Latinization, but is a Traditional form of monasticism in the ORIENTAL Tradition. In fact, the Latins borrowed it from US (i.e., the Oriental Tradition). The first cloistered monks were in fact from Syria.

I say this with all humility and kindness - please don’t confuse the Oriental Tradition with the Eastern Tradition. We have much that is similar, but also much that is distinctive. The Maronites are of the Oriental Tradition. As I noted in the “My Witness” thread a long time ago, the Oriental and Western Traditions also have much that is similar, and people unfamiliar with the Oriental Traditions can mistakenly accuse us of “Latinizations.”

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk…thanks for bringing this to my attention! From all I have read and from my contact with the Coptic monks, I had never heard this before. In fact the Coptic monks had never heard of it either.

Thanks again.
Ciero

 

[angelic06]

Voistynnu Voskrese!

But getting back to the removal of “pretending,” , how can anyone say they are in communion with Rome or a Byzantine Catholic if they believe the papacy to be a man-made institution and therefore rejects the papal dogmas?

I understand where YOU are coming from on the Papacy. But if you affirm as you do, why do you hang onto the EC moniker? Aren’t you really “Orthodox in communion with other Orthodox?”

Alex

Speaking of which, no disrespect intended, I’m just trying to get your perspective. Where do you stand on being in communion in Rome? From reading your posts, I’m having a hard time understanding your view. Maybe you could shoot me a PM, so that we don’t derail this thread, if you don’t wish to post it publicly?

 

[angelic06]

So I take it you would advocate for a hybrid church…pick and choose what you like from any tradition and just do it? Not a very healthy attitude.

…as long as I get to heaven, yes?

That’s what we want, Eastern or Western, the glorification of God and the salvation of souls?

That’s what I like about being Catholic…you can go to a Latin Eucharistic Adoration one day, tomorrow, you head to the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy. Would I get the same thing if I were Greek Orthodox, I do not know, as I have not been to one in about nine years.

While I’m writing from a Latin perspective, I prefer dvdjs’ healthy attitude of organic development. Whether or not it is organic, I’ll leave to the those properly trained in the study of liturgy.

 

[Aramis]

The entire liturgy we pray is Maronite. No Latinizations.

fr. michael gilmary, mma

Rev. Fr. Michael, Bless!

It’s that claim that is the problem. The Maronite liturgy itself contains some latinizations. The synod has argued not over the existence of them, but of just how many there are! And further, whether some of them have become authentic parts of Maronite tradition, even if they are in fact latin in origin.

Just looking at the vestments… the terms may not be exact, but I’m puling them from sor.cua.edu/Vestments/ … which shows the Jacobite Syrian vestments, but they match the Syrian Catholics; the Chaldean and

Do you use the curtain? (Many maronite parishes don’t even have one anymore)
Do you use the Chasuble or the Phayno? (I’ve seen maronite priests pictured in both)
Do you wear the eskimo or the phiro?
Do you wear msone (cloth slippers) or your street shoes? (I’ve seen photos of maronite priests in leather lowquarters during liturgy.)
Do you wear the zendo (sleeves/cuffs)?

Does your bishop wear the mnasnaputo (“Turban” - really a hood similar to the roman Amice in construction) and the Batrashil (which is equivalent to the omophorion)? (And I know that most Maronite bishops don’t wear the mnashnaputo, but instead wear a miter similar to the Roman one; freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2156149/posts has a photo of a Maronite procession).

I’m not asking this as a denigration; I’m genuinely curious to know just how syriac the Maronite rubrics are…

Also note: the Armenians also wear the roman style miter; it’s a latinization, but also an authentic tradition, as well. The line is extremely blurry for both the Armenians and the Maronites on the use of the western style miter.

 

[The_Idiot]

All the monks there who came from the Latin Rite were received into the Maronite Church with the Indult of Accomodation from the Apostolic See. The entire liturgical life of the monastery - Divine Praises, Divine Liturgy, Liturgical Calendar is fully Maronite.

Please - when did this happen since their Website says most clearly ?

Those wishing to join this Eastern Catholic Monastic Community are not obliged to change rites. Each one retains his own rite of Baptism. Currently, all members are Roman rite.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Ciero,

Marduk…thanks for bringing this to my attention! From all I have read and from my contact with the Coptic monks, I had never heard this before. In fact the Coptic monks had never heard of it either.

Forgive me for the misunderstanding. My fault. When I used the term “Oriental,” I did not mean to imply that it is a UNIVERSAL Oriental Tradition. It’s origins are Syriac, not Coptic. When I used the word “Oriental,” I only meant to distinguish it from your own Eastern Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I can not speak for Ciero, but it would be difficult to deny that the Maronite Church still suffers greatly from Latinization (both some of the old kind, and the new modernist variation). I have a deep love for the Maronite people and their spirituality, but to say their church is free of Latinizations would be to ignore reality.

Maybe “suffers” is too strong of a word?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Formosus]

Perhaps overall it is a bit strong of a word, and being that I am not a maronite, perhaps i was a bit out of line.

 

[frmgc]

The Monk;7870695:

All the monks there who came from the Latin Rite were received into the Maronite Church with the Indult of Accomodation from the Apostolic See. The entire liturgical life of the monastery - Divine Praises, Divine Liturgy, Liturgical Calendar is fully Maronite.

Please - when did this happen since their Website says most clearly:

“Those wishing to join this Eastern Catholic Monastic Community are not obliged to change rites. Each one retains his own rite of Baptism. Currently, all members are Roman rite.”

This refers to changing the “ascription to a sui iuris Church” as in Canon Law. The Holy See grants the “indult of accomodation” which places a soul under the jurisdiction of the Abbot and Maronite Eparch WITHOUT changing ascription. The reason seems simple enough: the indult is required to begin the novitiate. So, if a full CHANGE of ascription is required and the novice leaves … he’s no longer Latin, Greek or whatever, he’s Maronite. That could present problems, to say the least, if his family, etc. isn’t Maronite and he’s no longer interested in living as a Maronite.

So, most of us (two exceptions I know of in this monastery) are ascribed to the Latin Church sui iuris by baptism and have the indult of accomodation and thus IN PRACTICE are “fully Maronite”.

Rev. Fr. Michael, Bless!

Moryo barekhokh!

It’s that claim that is the problem. The Maronite liturgy itself contains some latinizations.

Please see the very post you quote, where I said:

My point is NOT that there are not Latinizations among Maronites … but WE did not introduce them.

Just looking at the vestments… the terms may not be exact, but I’m puling them from sor.cua.edu/Vestments/ … which shows the Jacobite Syrian vestments, but they match the Syrian Catholics; the Chaldean and

Do you use the curtain? (Many maronite parishes don’t even have one anymore)

No — and I’ve never seen one in any Maronite parish. This may be a Syriac but not Maronite custom.

Do you use the Chasuble or the Phayno?

We use the phaino.

Do you wear the eskimo or the phiro?

Being monks, we always use the skeem or hood. And the phiro is not a term we use but we wear the “callotte”.

I’m not asking this as a denigration; I’m genuinely curious to know just how syriac the Maronite rubrics are…

Many of the “rubrics” are presently being determined by the Synod and I’ve been told they will be published before the year is over. Some of the things you mention have fallen into desuetude (at least for Maronites) and others are not Latin but not Maronite either. We will wait for the directives from the Synod.

Now I think I will have to end my visits to this forum since the questions can be endless! But we won’t fail to pray for all of you.

If you have need to contact me, please visit our website and look for the vocations contact via email and that will come to me.

United in adoration of Jesus,

fr. michael gilmary, mma

 

[yeshua]

Maybe “suffers” is too strong of a word?

Blessings,
Marduk

“Suffers” is an understatement.

 

[yeshua]

No — and I’ve never seen one in any Maronite parish. This may be a Syriac but not Maronite custom.

Quite traditional, point of fact, though utterly suppressed after Trent as the Jesuits sent to enact the council’s directives found it inappropriate, among other things. There is a community in Texas, two in California, and one in Florida that utilize the veil.

 

[yeshua]

This thread demonstrates why the Maronites will never gain their former glory en masse: bad (perhaps simply ignorant) clerical decisions passed on for the consumption of further generations.

Monks completely unaware of their own traditions (however adopted); it is simply embarrassing.

 

[mardukm]

HELLO BROTHER YESHUA!!!

 

[The_Idiot]

Forgive me Father for pressing this

Originally Posted by The Idiot
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monk
All the monks there who came from the Latin Rite were received into the Maronite Church with the Indult of Accomodation from the Apostolic See. The entire liturgical life of the monastery - Divine Praises, Divine Liturgy, Liturgical Calendar is fully Maronite.
Please - when did this happen since their Website says most clearly:

“Those wishing to join this Eastern Catholic Monastic Community are not obliged to change rites. Each one retains his own rite of Baptism. Currently, all members are Roman rite.”

This refers to changing the “ascription to a sui iuris Church” as in Canon Law. The Holy See grants the “indult of accomodation” which places a soul under the jurisdiction of the Abbot and Maronite Eparch WITHOUT changing ascription. The reason seems simple enough: the indult is required to begin the novitiate. So, if a full CHANGE of ascription is required and the novice leaves … he’s no longer Latin, Greek or whatever, he’s Maronite. That could present problems, to say the least, if his family, etc. isn’t Maronite and he’s no longer interested in living as a Maronite.

So, most of us (two exceptions I know of in this monastery) are ascribed to the Latin Church sui iuris by baptism and have the indult of accomodation and thus IN PRACTICE are “fully Maronite”.

From that I infer you note plural useage meaning all the Community ] may be Maronite in praxis but you are not Maronite canonically. Is this correct ?

 

[TrueLight]

That’s a strange way of calling oneself catholic. The Papacy came from Our Lord’s entrusting St. Peter with the Keys of the Kingdom. What council created the Papacy? Also what ecumenical council taught the “uncreated energies of God” as taught by Gregory Palmas?

This is not addressed to all Eastern Catholics.

I hate sounding like a parrot, but it seems to me for some, communion with Rome is communion in name only. Why not just stay Orthodox not in Communion with Rome?

Or maybe this is a temporary measure until the Pope caves in?

 

[ciero]

This is not addressed to all Eastern Catholics.

I hate sounding like a parrot, but it seems to me for some, communion with Rome is communion in name only. Why not just stay Orthodox not in Communion with Rome?

Or maybe this is a temporary measure until the Pope caves in?

Does communion with Rome mean we should all just become Roman Catholics then…? Adopt their liturgy, theology and spirituality? Sure would make things easier! Why not just disband the Eastern Catholic churches…either return to your Orthodox counterpart or become a Roman Catholic.