C
ciero
Guest
From what I’ve been able to gather…the founder could not find a Latin Rite bishop to allow him to found a monastery within their jurisdiction…the Maronite bishop did…with all the Latinizations is tow!
- Status
D
Dale_M
Guest
Wow… his story is both awesome and inspiring.
Here is a news story about how he got there… minus the most important details.
(But i have learned to expect that from secular news agencies)
D
Dan1603
Guest
I just came back from there on Wednesday. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. The monks were more than outgoing. The food was yummy. The grounds were beautiful. The silence was encouraged but the retreat master and other retreatants did chat. The atmosphere was light and friendly. I stayed 3 nights. Rooms had private showers and private porch. Fans were also supplied if you get warm. I would definitely go back!
S
smad0142
Guest
While I think it must be a great place full of holy men and wonderful practices, how in the heck did they establish a Maronite Monestary with all Roman Rite men? How can they be Maronite monks without having switched Churches? Unless they all have a dispensation like Br. David on here has to be a Carmelite?
And Bierdk I think you could make an argument that you could have Eucharistic Adoration that is not a latinization. The Rite of Benediction that His Grace Raya came up with is completely different than Roman Benediction. (And I don’t want this to continue the discussion on genuine eastern devotions, I am simply musing that maybe this is a possible reason for why this is allowed.)
And Bierdk I think you could make an argument that you could have Eucharistic Adoration that is not a latinization. The Rite of Benediction that His Grace Raya came up with is completely different than Roman Benediction. (And I don’t want this to continue the discussion on genuine eastern devotions, I am simply musing that maybe this is a possible reason for why this is allowed.)
B
Biedrik
Guest
How odd. So do they use the Maronite liturgy?From what I’ve been able to gather…the founder could not find a Latin Rite bishop to allow him to found a monastery within their jurisdiction…the Maronite bishop did…with all the Latinizations is tow!
S
smad0142
Guest
Glad you had a great retreat!
B
Biedrik
Guest
I suppose you could. Certainly the practice of Adoration itself is pretty Latin, but one could make it Eastern. Really, I think we need a higher Church authority to speak on whether or not it’s in accordance with Church law.
D
Dan1603
Guest
Yes their Mass and Divine Office are both Maronite
M
malphono
Guest
As I understand things, over the years there have been a handful of “cradle Maronites” there, but yes, the bulk have been, and are, Latins. FWIW, it seems that there has been (or is, I’m not sure) an Armenian, and perhaps .
I’ll share a small vignette, which I believe is accurate: in the wake of Summorum Pontificum, a group there apparently petitioned the bishop for permission to use the 1962 Latin books, (I don’t know if that was for the Missal only or if the intent included the Office). The bishop, of course, refused to even entertain the request.
Another small vignette that I believe is also accurate has to do with the altar. Several years back, the community (to its credit) wished to offer Mass ad orientem (despite the modernesque look of the chapel). The bishop refused to entertain that request too.
That’s pretty much correct, at least as far as how it came to be a “Maronite” monastery.From what I’ve been able to gather…the founder could not find a Latin Rite bishop to allow him to found a monastery within their jurisdiction…the Maronite bishop did…with all the Latinizations is tow!
As for the latinizations, to be fair about it, I cannot say that the Abbot or the monks are themselves guilty of exactly introducing same. A schema was presented to the then-bishop, who accepted and approved it.
S
smad0142
Guest
I would hesitate to submit this to a higher Church authority. In this day of ecumenism Rome would be under so much pressure from EO, and from a lot of EC, to simply dimiss Eucharistic Adoration outright in an Eastern setting. I think it should just be left as a pious option, take it or leave it.
The way I approach this is with the quote of St. Augustine in mind, “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity!”
And if what Malphono says is true this group sounds like it really should be a Traditional Use Latin Monastery, like the Carmelites in Wyoming. I am all for sharing between the Churches, but Maronites wanting to have standing permission for the '62 Mass is ridiculos. I could see wanting to have it once so the Monks could experience it and breath with both lungs and all that, but all the time?
The Office and the Divine Liturgy are the public prayers of the Church, ergo they must be legitimate expressions of the Church to which they belong. Private devotions are one thing, but the public prayer of each ritual Church must remain true to its Church with careful changes added after much thought and necessity.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
In the UGCC, we also have Eucharistic Adoration. There are those who don’t practice it as a Latinization, and that is fair ball.
Our Patriarch Joseph the Hieroconfessor did at least an hour of Eucharistic Adoration daily at the Church of St Neilos in Rome (as he told me himself). This was and is a private devotion and one which our New Martyrs and Confessors loved. The Melkites too have an order for devotion to the “Static Presence of Christ in Holy Communion” as Archbishop Raya wrote.
In western Ukraine, there are entire UGCC villages and towns who are engaged in 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration, as visiting priests have related.
One priest (who also wore a Rosary Ring!! Can you imagine!!
) told me that even small schoolchildren in his town had assigned Hours of Adoration in Church. He had compiled a booklet with all sorts of prayers for the Adoration and the kids took it with them to school so that they could go to Church for their Hour of prayer afterwards.
One of our parishes up here, St Josaphat’s have an all-night vigil on Saturday eves until Sunday morning DL as well.
I, for one, do not want to discourage these people from their devotions. And I wouldn’t want to try.
As for Latinization, if an EC Particular Church’s synod, such as the Melkites, approves of the Feast of Corpus Christi - I really don’t see how this is a “Latinization.”
Alex
Our Patriarch Joseph the Hieroconfessor did at least an hour of Eucharistic Adoration daily at the Church of St Neilos in Rome (as he told me himself). This was and is a private devotion and one which our New Martyrs and Confessors loved. The Melkites too have an order for devotion to the “Static Presence of Christ in Holy Communion” as Archbishop Raya wrote.
In western Ukraine, there are entire UGCC villages and towns who are engaged in 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration, as visiting priests have related.
One priest (who also wore a Rosary Ring!! Can you imagine!!
) told me that even small schoolchildren in his town had assigned Hours of Adoration in Church. He had compiled a booklet with all sorts of prayers for the Adoration and the kids took it with them to school so that they could go to Church for their Hour of prayer afterwards.One of our parishes up here, St Josaphat’s have an all-night vigil on Saturday eves until Sunday morning DL as well.
I, for one, do not want to discourage these people from their devotions. And I wouldn’t want to try.
As for Latinization, if an EC Particular Church’s synod, such as the Melkites, approves of the Feast of Corpus Christi - I really don’t see how this is a “Latinization.”
Alex
S
smad0142
Guest
Alex,
You are just an incredible resource about the UGCC. Can you tell me anymore about UGCC Adoration, as opposed to the Adoration that Arbp. Raya details in the Byzantine Daily Worship? Thanks!!
You are just an incredible resource about the UGCC. Can you tell me anymore about UGCC Adoration, as opposed to the Adoration that Arbp. Raya details in the Byzantine Daily Worship? Thanks!!
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Dear Sir,
Not at all - I just have first-hand information!
We do have a Supplicatory Service which is different from the one the Melkites use (I prefer the Melkite one, truth be told).
When we have all-nighters or the 24-7 variety of Adoration, it is anyone’s choice in terms of prayers. The all-nighter that my aunt Irene (+memory eternal!) used to attend began with the Supplicatory Service that involves blessing the people with the Eucharist.
As you well know, the blessing of the people with the Holy Eucharist is part of the Byzantine DL. So the Supplicatory Service IS a Latinization because it is something done outside the DL and it is NOT since the action itself is part of the DL (it was never part of the Latin Mass in history so it is a question as to wear the Latin Church got the idea from . . .).
Fr. Julian Katry OSBM who did a marvellous job on his Eastern Rite volumes recommended that EC’s focus on participating in the DL as well as possible (adequate preparation before and after Holy Communion, attentive participation throughout the DL etc.).
But the fact remains (and I’m not making this up - sometimes I’m reacted to as if these practices originated with ME! ), the fact remains that this practice goes on and is, how shall I say, WILDLY popular.
Alex
Not at all - I just have first-hand information!
We do have a Supplicatory Service which is different from the one the Melkites use (I prefer the Melkite one, truth be told).
When we have all-nighters or the 24-7 variety of Adoration, it is anyone’s choice in terms of prayers. The all-nighter that my aunt Irene (+memory eternal!) used to attend began with the Supplicatory Service that involves blessing the people with the Eucharist.
As you well know, the blessing of the people with the Holy Eucharist is part of the Byzantine DL. So the Supplicatory Service IS a Latinization because it is something done outside the DL and it is NOT since the action itself is part of the DL (it was never part of the Latin Mass in history so it is a question as to wear the Latin Church got the idea from . . .).
Fr. Julian Katry OSBM who did a marvellous job on his Eastern Rite volumes recommended that EC’s focus on participating in the DL as well as possible (adequate preparation before and after Holy Communion, attentive participation throughout the DL etc.).
But the fact remains (and I’m not making this up - sometimes I’m reacted to as if these practices originated with ME!
), the fact remains that this practice goes on and is, how shall I say, WILDLY popular.Alex
S
smad0142
Guest
Do you know of anywhere online that has the texts for the Supplicatory Service? And is it the Eucharist in a Monstrance?
I am not suprised at all! It shocks me how many EC and EO are vehemently opposed to worshipping Christ exposed. When you look at the Ukraine, and all the persecution and martyrdom that occurred, it really cuts through a lot of the garbage going on in educated EC and EO circles today. The Ukrainians don’t care if it is a latinization, or pure byzantine, they are more interested in spending time with Christ. Now that is what I call Faith.
I am not suprised at all! It shocks me how many EC and EO are vehemently opposed to worshipping Christ exposed. When you look at the Ukraine, and all the persecution and martyrdom that occurred, it really cuts through a lot of the garbage going on in educated EC and EO circles today. The Ukrainians don’t care if it is a latinization, or pure byzantine, they are more interested in spending time with Christ. Now that is what I call Faith.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
BENEDICTION OF THE MOST BLESSED SACRAMENT
OF CHRIST’S BODY AND BLOOD
Priest: Blessed +] is our God, now and always and unto ages of ages…
People: Amen.
While the Priest incenses the Eucharist, the community prays:
Let the Church Triumphant be present, and all the holy angels. Let them stand here with us before their Creator and God, deeply worshiping Him who is most good, Jesus. He who is feared by the Cherubim is present now, in an invisible manner, hidden under the sensible species. We see Him, and we see Him not, for He is the visible and invisible God. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia! Glory to You, O Lord!
Priest: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia! Glory to You, O Lord!
People: O, our God and our Hope, glory to You!
While the people are chanting the last Alleluia, the Priest incenses. At the end of the chanting, the Priest blesses with the covered holy Host, saying:
Priest: May God the Father bless you, + He who saved us through the Incarnation of His beloved Son.
People: Amen.
Priest: May God the Son bless you, + He who gave us the admirable Sacrament of His love.
People: Amen.
Priest: May God the Holy Spirit bless you, + He who made us holy by His awe-inspiring descent.
People: Amen.
Priest: Glory to the holy, consubstantial, life-giving and indivisible Trinity, now and always and unto ages of ages.
People: Amen.
The Priest places the covered Host on the holy table and inceses it while the community prays the following:
It is a tremendous miracle to see God taking flesh and becoming man, and an even greater miracle still to see Him suspended on the cross. But the highest of all miracles, O Christ our God, is your ineffable presence under the mystic species. Truly You did institute, through this great Sacrament, a remembrance of all your marvels. How merciful of You, O God, to give Yourself as food to those who love and are in wonder before You! To recall your covenant forever, and to remember your passion and your death until the day of your glorious coming! Let us, O Faithful, receive our food and our life, our King and our Savior, and cry out: “Save, O Lord, those who worship your glorious and venerable presence.”
The Priest replaces the Eucharist in the tabernacle while the community prays the Hymn to Christ in the Holy Eucharist:
People: Christ, having loved his own, loved them until the end and gave them His body and blood as food and drink. Therefore, let us adore them with veneration and say with fear: “Glory to your presence, O Christ! Glory to your compassion, glory to your condescension, O You who alone are the Lover of Mankind!”
Priest: Glory to You, our God! Glory to You! O Christ, our true God, O You who gave us Your body and blood as food and drink for our salvation, through the intercession of your Mother all-pure, our fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us! Amen.
All: Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord, Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen.
OF CHRIST’S BODY AND BLOOD
Priest: Blessed +] is our God, now and always and unto ages of ages…
People: Amen.
While the Priest incenses the Eucharist, the community prays:
Let the Church Triumphant be present, and all the holy angels. Let them stand here with us before their Creator and God, deeply worshiping Him who is most good, Jesus. He who is feared by the Cherubim is present now, in an invisible manner, hidden under the sensible species. We see Him, and we see Him not, for He is the visible and invisible God. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia! Glory to You, O Lord!
Priest: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia! Glory to You, O Lord!
People: O, our God and our Hope, glory to You!
While the people are chanting the last Alleluia, the Priest incenses. At the end of the chanting, the Priest blesses with the covered holy Host, saying:
Priest: May God the Father bless you, + He who saved us through the Incarnation of His beloved Son.
People: Amen.
Priest: May God the Son bless you, + He who gave us the admirable Sacrament of His love.
People: Amen.
Priest: May God the Holy Spirit bless you, + He who made us holy by His awe-inspiring descent.
People: Amen.
Priest: Glory to the holy, consubstantial, life-giving and indivisible Trinity, now and always and unto ages of ages.
People: Amen.
The Priest places the covered Host on the holy table and inceses it while the community prays the following:
It is a tremendous miracle to see God taking flesh and becoming man, and an even greater miracle still to see Him suspended on the cross. But the highest of all miracles, O Christ our God, is your ineffable presence under the mystic species. Truly You did institute, through this great Sacrament, a remembrance of all your marvels. How merciful of You, O God, to give Yourself as food to those who love and are in wonder before You! To recall your covenant forever, and to remember your passion and your death until the day of your glorious coming! Let us, O Faithful, receive our food and our life, our King and our Savior, and cry out: “Save, O Lord, those who worship your glorious and venerable presence.”
The Priest replaces the Eucharist in the tabernacle while the community prays the Hymn to Christ in the Holy Eucharist:
People: Christ, having loved his own, loved them until the end and gave them His body and blood as food and drink. Therefore, let us adore them with veneration and say with fear: “Glory to your presence, O Christ! Glory to your compassion, glory to your condescension, O You who alone are the Lover of Mankind!”
Priest: Glory to You, our God! Glory to You! O Christ, our true God, O You who gave us Your body and blood as food and drink for our salvation, through the intercession of your Mother all-pure, our fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us! Amen.
All: Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord, Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen.
S
smad0142
Guest
Thanks!!
C
chaldobyzantine
Guest
^ WOW. and just like that I turned Orthodox 
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
If you DO turn Orthodox, please don’t mention me to your bishop!!
My friend became an Orthodox priest and after his ordination, he presented me to his bishop as the one “who introduced him to Orthodoxy.” The bishop hugged me and thanked me for “bringing him to us.”
I had nothing to do with anything and I’m not in the business of bringing people into Orthodoxy!!
so PLEASE!
Alex
My friend became an Orthodox priest and after his ordination, he presented me to his bishop as the one “who introduced him to Orthodoxy.” The bishop hugged me and thanked me for “bringing him to us.”
I had nothing to do with anything and I’m not in the business of bringing people into Orthodoxy!!
so PLEASE!
Alex
S
smad0142
Guest
And since I was a part of all that mess with Alex, if you became Orthodox and presented me to your Bishop I will say a lot of horrible things about you.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
And since I was a part of all that mess with Alex, if you became Orthodox and presented me to your Bishop I will say a lot of horrible things about you.
- Status