Marriage and being "open to life"

[ac_claire]

I’m noticing a trend here on CAF and in the Church in general. It seems like a lot of Catholic couples (young couples especially) bring a sort of contraceptive mentality into their marriage, with NFP as their “birth control” method of choice. Is that the way we’re supposed to use it?

Are we supposed to use NFP because circumstances may not be “perfect” to conceive…? We have debt, or we’re planning on a big move, or one of us is in a shaky employment situation and we don’t know what the future will hold, etc., etc…?

The Church, in her wisdom, teaches that pro-creation (ie: being open to life) is the primary purpose of marriage. There is no getting around this. So then why are couples who “aren’t ready” to have children getting married in the first place…?

Something is not right with this picture. :nope:

 

[Victorious]

The world has always worked against Catholic teaching on sexuality, and has certainly made a lot of headway among Catholics over the last century.

Here’s some reading I recommend: James Cardinal Stafford’s account of the howls of dissent upon the publication of Humanae Vitae, in which Pope Paul VI “failed” to follow the recommendations of the papal commission that the Church change her teaching on contraceptives. This article struck me with a realization I had not previously had: the moment of Humanae Vitae’s publication ranks with Clement VII’s decision not to grant Henry VIII his hard-fought-for divorce from Catherine of Aragon, even though so many prominent persons were in favor of it, and even though he knew it would be the excuse for England to enter into schism. How easy it would have been for Paul VI just to let the papal commission make the decision; but he didn’t choose the easy road – a sure indication that he chose the right road.

Moments like these, however wrenching, prove that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and that however close to the edge of the abyss He may allow her to go, He will never let her fall in.

 

[flyingfish]

I’m noticing a trend here on CAF and in the Church in general. It seems like a lot of Catholic couples (young couples especially) bring a sort of contraceptive mentality into their marriage, with NFP as their “birth control” method of choice. Is that the way we’re supposed to use it?

Are we supposed to use NFP because circumstances may not be “perfect” to conceive…? We have debt, or we’re planning on a big move, or one of us is in a shaky employment situation and we don’t know what the future will hold, etc., etc…?

The Church, in her wisdom, teaches that pro-creation (ie: being open to life) is the primary purpose of marriage. There is no getting around this. So then why are couples who “aren’t ready” to have children getting married in the first place…?

Something is not right with this picture. :nope:

Catholics in general use artificial birth control, but most people on this forum are in the minority who do not. I don’t understand why you are so critical of posters here who are following the Church’s teachings in using NFP.

NFP is supposed to be used for just reasons, and the Church has never given a list precisely because it depends on the individual couple. Some couples may be called to have many children, others may be called to only have 1 or 2 or even none and use their talents in other ways to serve God. The Catechism talks of both unitive and procreative purposes to marriage, if it was just about having children then infertile or post-menopausal couples would have no right to marry.

Sure it is possible to misuse NFP, but it doesn’t follow that every couple with few or no children is doing so.

There is no reason to be more “Catholic” than the Church itself.

 

[sarahraegraham]

I haven’t read extensively on the topic (and I don’t make any claim that the Church is wrong in allowing NFP), however, I cannot bring the action of using NFP into line with trust in God.

My husband and I have struggled with feeling comfortable with the possiblity of having children, for different individual and collective reasons (an example is not knowing if we would be good parents, among many others). We have come to the conclusion that we will not use any means of contraception or family planning for one very simple reason: we choose to trust God.

While I agree 100% that there is nothing wrong with abstaining from sex, I now believe that any attempt to control our fertility is contradictory to openness to life and the providence of God. Even if my husband and I are intimate at the precisely perfect moment every month for the rest of my fertile days, there will be no conception unless God chooses to bring a human life into this world through us, period. And the same could be said in reverse. We could abstain during what we know is the fertile time, and do so absolutely perfectly, and yet God could choose to conceive a child anyway. No matter what we do, God can choose to give us a child or he can choose to keep children from us.

The Church’s teaching is that at the moment of conception, God creates a human soul. It’s not just rules of nature set in place, and then it’s a “chance” occurence of conception. That means that God is choosing each moment what He will do as I give my life and my fertility over to Him. If we don’t have sex, God cannot create another human being through us. But if we try to avoid conception when marriage is a calling directly to make families, aren’t we making ourselves God by trying to control what is not ours to control in the first place? The first command given was to be fruitful and multiply. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

To me, it flies in the face of my trust in my God and my giving my entire being and life to Him. He will give and take as He chooses and I will not put up barriers in my life.

We can say, “I know that I can’t handle another child” financially, mentally, etc., but God is the father of all of us and if we trust him and we admit (as the scriptures also admonish us) that we must not worry but place all our cares on Him and that He will always provide, how can someone who practices NFP say that they are following God with their whole heart?

I’m still trying to work it out, but right now that’s how I see it. This has been very freeing for us, and perhaps someone else could benefit from our view.

 

[flyingfish]

I haven’t read extensively on the topic (and I don’t make any claim that the Church is wrong in allowing NFP), however, I cannot bring the action of using NFP into line with trust in God.

My husband and I have struggled with feeling comfortable with the possiblity of having children, for different individual and collective reasons (an example is not knowing if we would be good parents, among many others). We have come to the conclusion that we will not use any means of contraception or family planning for one very simple reason: we choose to trust God.

While I agree 100% that there is nothing wrong with abstaining from sex, I now believe that any attempt to control our fertility is contradictory to openness to life and the providence of God. Even if my husband and I are intimate at the precisely perfect moment every month for the rest of my fertile days, there will be no conception unless God chooses to bring a human life into this world through us, period. And the same could be said in reverse. We could abstain during what we know is the fertile time, and do so absolutely perfectly, and yet God could choose to conceive a child anyway. No matter what we do, God can choose to give us a child or he can choose to keep children from us.

The Church’s teaching is that at the moment of conception, God creates a human soul. It’s not just rules of nature set in place, and then it’s a “chance” occurence of conception. That means that God is choosing each moment what He will do as I give my life and my fertility over to Him. If we don’t have sex, God cannot create another human being through us. But if we try to avoid conception when marriage is a calling directly to make families, aren’t we making ourselves God by trying to control what is not ours to control in the first place? The first command given was to be fruitful and multiply. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

To me, it flies in the face of my trust in my God and my giving my entire being and life to Him. He will give and take as He chooses and I will not put up barriers in my life.

We can say, “I know that I can’t handle another child” financially, mentally, etc., but God is the father of all of us and if we trust him and we admit (as the scriptures also admonish us) that we must not worry but place all our cares on Him and that He will always provide, how can someone who practices NFP say that they are following God with their whole heart?

I’m still trying to work it out, but right now that’s how I see it. This has been very freeing for us, and perhaps someone else could benefit from our view.

Do you think it is the will of God if a child gets pregnant after being raped by a family member? Sorry for the disturbing example.

Trusting in God also means trusting in the fruits of the abilities God gave human beings, such as medicine and understanding of human fertility. God means for us to trust him, but that doesn’t mean doing nothing and allowing whatever will happen to happen. It means using your God given abilities to live what you believe to be a moral life.

God commanded the very first human beings on earth to multiply, will that always apply? What if a woman is sick and pregnancy would threaten her health?

 

[PaulinVA]

I question what some people mean by the phrase “open to life”.

Being “open to life” does not necessarily mean seeking out new life all the time. It means that, once pregnant, the couple rejoices in the new life they have created together with God.

Being co creators with God is not passive. It is active. We now know that a woman is fertile for only a short time each month. Those trying to conceive a child actively participate in the marriage act to the end of being co creators with God at that time. There is a biological fact occurring that the couple is cooperating with.

Since the Church has not, and will not, publish a list of grave/serious/just reasons to avoid conception, it is up to the couple. If a couple decides to try to avoid a pregnancy because of reasons that are serious to them, but get pregnant anyway (due to misinterpretation of a chart, a “what the heck” night, or God reaches down and makes it happen) and they rejoice, how are they *not *“open to life” ?

This idea that the Church requires a couple to engage in relations on a certain night is really weird.

 

[1ke]

I’m noticing a trend here on CAF and in the Church in general. It seems like a lot of Catholic couples (young couples especially) bring a sort of contraceptive mentality into their marriage, with NFP as their “birth control” method of choice. Is that the way we’re supposed to use it?

Are we supposed to use NFP because circumstances may not be “perfect” to conceive…? We have debt, or we’re planning on a big move, or one of us is in a shaky employment situation and we don’t know what the future will hold, etc., etc…?

I think it’s fair to say that all people are influenced by the culture around them to a greater or lesser degree. And, young people contend with more influence from society, their friends, their family, and the “culture” than those who are older and have more experience in life. Therefore, in religious education and marriage preparation we are called to teach the truth to our young people and help them form their consciences properly. We are called to help them cut through the culture and find the Truth.

That said, I do not think it is a wise idea to judge individual people as having a “contraceptive mentality” and list out reason that **you **believe support your assessment. Any of these reasons could certainly be valid in a **particular **situation.

What we should do, in charity, is give the couple the benefit of the doubt and assume the couple has properly **discerned ** their reason to space/avoid a child at that time through prayer and discussion with each other. More Catholic couples are choosing to reject contraception and that is a good thing.

While it is possible to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality, it is wrong to judge particular people in their decision and pronounce someone’s reason “not good enough.” We are not in their shoes, and do not know their situation at all.

The Church, in her wisdom, teaches that pro-creation (ie: being open to life) is the primary purpose of marriage. There is no getting around this. So then why are couples who “aren’t ready” to have children getting married in the first place…?

The Church also teaches, in the vein of St. Paul “it is better to marry than to burn.” So, the Church teaches that the *primary *end is procreation, but the *unitive *end can never be separated and that the *quieting *of concupiscense is also part of marriage.

Something is not right with this picture. :nope:

I think it’s your assessment of others that is not right with this picture.

 

[pumpkinbeast]

As one of those young persons who is getting married and will be using NFP, I’m a little affronted that you would assume that ‘using NFP=contraceptive mentality’. By using NFP, we WILL be open to life, that’s the point of using NFP, and not the Pill, or condoms, or whatever. And as 1ke said:

…The Church also teaches, in the vein of St. Paul “it is better to marry than to burn.” So, the Church teaches that the *primary *end is procreation, but the *unitive *end can never be separated and that the *quieting *of concupiscense is also part of marriage…

These are the reasons why my fiance and I are getting married, and we have discerned that we should wait a bit, not too long, I hope, before having kids RIGHT after we get married. We’re not doing it to ‘get to know each other better’ or ‘get settled’ or whatever. We will have significant financial restrictions after we’re married. It is not anyone else’s business as to why we have decided- me, my fiance, and God- to delay having kids. We will be open to life, using NFP, so if God decides to bless us anyway, we’ll work it out. We’ve discussed that possibility, and are prepared for it, but we will still be avoiding for the first little while in our marriage.

Rather than judging our mindset, please, pray that we are able to discern clearly God’s will in our life, so that we don’t ever adopt a contraceptive mentality.

 

[Leonius]

Do you think it is the will of God if a child gets pregnant after being raped by a family member? Sorry for the disturbing example.

God brings good out of bad

 

[purplesunshine]

Do you think it is the will of God if a child gets pregnant after being raped by a family member? Sorry for the disturbing example.

How in the world would contraception fix that???

 

[Tosk]

I’ve yet to meet a couple who uses NFP that buys into the contraceptive mentality. Catholic couples who buy into the contraceptive mentality typically use contraception. The reason is simple, if you are going to use contraception like everyone else why pick the most difficult and ineffective form?

 

[Rascalking]

Boy, I think I’m going to irritate alot of people with this post-It’s not my intention, so I apologize up front.

I think that being “open to life” is a bit dangerous sometimes. I grew up Catholic, and both my sister and I are adopted. My parents are unable to have biological children. I went to Catholic schools, church every Sunday, etc.

I know alot of big familes. Almost all of the them have serious problems. Babies born out of wedlock, divorces, lots of premarital sex, sibling drama, the like. Alot of the children of big familes have left the faith altogether. My dad is from a family of over 10+ and only 4 still go to church.

Of course, I’m not saying that all big families are like that, and I know it’s a generalization. However, it’s still a generalzation that that might be true.

Maybe it’s because the children don’t have enough time one on one with their parents. Maybe it’s because NH has something in the water…

I’m single, so I don’t have a dog in the fight. It’s just something I noticed.

I don’t mean anything mean! Sorry if I offended anyone!

 

[1ke]

How in the world would contraception fix that???

The poster wasn’t implying that contraception is a solution. The poster was refuting the comments that it is “God’s will” in a direct way whether or not conception occurs every time two people have sexual relations. So, this poster was pointing out the flaw in that reasoning.

 

[ac_claire]

Catholics in general use artificial birth control, but most people on this forum are in the minority who do not. I don’t understand why you are so critical of posters here who are following the Church’s teachings in using NFP.

If you’ll read my OP, I’m critical of those who are not following the Church’s teachings on NFP and the purpose and nature of marriage. That’s actually my whole point…

NFP is supposed to be used for just reasons, and the Church has never given a list precisely because it depends on the individual couple. Some couples may be called to have many children, others may be called to only have 1 or 2 or even none and use their talents in other ways to serve God.

…according to the Catechism of flyingfish.

The Church actually teaches that if you’re called to be married, then you’re called to be open to life and children. In fact, pro-creation is the primary purpose of marriage. Not the secondary or the tertiary purpose…Not an optional decision that can be made if the couple decides it’s convenient or finanically prudent or that that children will enhance their quality of life, etc…Not something that couples can consider if they are “called to it”…It is the primary purpose. (The Church of course does recognize exceptions to that rule, but it’s error to argue that the rule is invalidated by the exceptions.)

 

[pumpkinbeast]

Boy, I think I’m going to irritate alot of people with this post-It’s not my intention, so I apologize up front.

I think that being “open to life” is a bit dangerous sometimes. I grew up Catholic, and both my sister and I are adopted. My parents are unable to have biological children. I went to Catholic schools, church every Sunday, etc.

I know alot of big familes. Almost all of the them have serious problems. Babies born out of wedlock, divorces, lots of premarital sex, sibling drama, the like. Alot of the children of big familes have left the faith altogether. My dad is from a family of over 10+ and only 4 still go to church.

Of course, I’m not saying that all big families are like that, and I know it’s a generalization. However, it’s still a generalzation that that might be true.

Maybe it’s because the children don’t have enough time one on one with their parents. Maybe it’s because NH has something in the water…

I’m single, so I don’t have a dog in the fight. It’s just something I noticed.

I don’t mean anything mean! Sorry if I offended anyone!

I think that has a heck of a lot more to do with parenting than number of kids. People who have just one or two could mess their kids up just an thoroughly as someone with 12 if they’re bad parents. The effect just might be magnified if there are more.

 

[Rascalking]

I think that has a heck of a lot more to do with parenting than number of kids. People who have just one or two could mess their kids up just an thoroughly as someone with 12 if they’re bad parents. The effect just might be magnified if there are more.

I thought so as well, that it might be the parenting. Even though I know many of the parents of the large familes,and admire some as well, I guess we don’t know what happens behind closed doors. I still think family size might have something to do with it.

 

[Norseman82]

I think it’s your assessment of others that is not right with this picture.

It is not anyone else’s business as to why we have decided- me, my fiance, and God- to delay having kids.

I agree. I have never seen the Church spell out a concrete list of “grave” or “serious” reasons to use NFP, so who are we to second-guess a married couple? As long as they plan to have children and a one year postponement doesn’t turn into twenty, we should practice some MYOB and stop being "Betty Buttinski"s who end up giving women guilt trips if they are not constantly pregnant from the time they get married unitl the “store runs out”, so to speak.

Besides, with all this talk of “single vocation” among the women, just getting a good Catholic girl to walk down the aisle with you is enough of a struggle.

 

[BrokenFortress]

Boy, I think I’m going to irritate alot of people with this post-It’s not my intention, so I apologize up front.

I think that being “open to life” is a bit dangerous sometimes. I grew up Catholic, and both my sister and I are adopted. My parents are unable to have biological children. I went to Catholic schools, church every Sunday, etc.

I know alot of big familes. Almost all of the them have serious problems. Babies born out of wedlock, divorces, lots of premarital sex, sibling drama, the like. Alot of the children of big familes have left the faith altogether. My dad is from a family of over 10+ and only 4 still go to church.

Of course, I’m not saying that all big families are like that, and I know it’s a generalization. However, it’s still a generalzation that that might be true.

Maybe it’s because the children don’t have enough time one on one with their parents. Maybe it’s because NH has something in the water…

I’m single, so I don’t have a dog in the fight. It’s just something I noticed.

I don’t mean anything mean! Sorry if I offended anyone!

I honestly don’t think it has to do with family size. I agree that it’s more about the parenting and then the children. Parents can only do so much for their children, but each child has free will. They themselves decide how they want to live their life and their parents ultimately can’t do anything about that. They raise them in the faith in hopes that they’ll stay in the faith and live that faith but if their child decides not to, it’s not the parent’s fault. And so family size would not matter.

My boyfriend comes from a family with 4 children. Not all that large in the scheme of some Catholic families. The family was very devout. Now that the children are all adults, only my boyfriend and his younger sister are very strict practicing Catholics. His 2 older brothers have chosen not to live the Catholic lifestyle. His one older brother is slowly making his way back to the faith but he’s not devout by any means.

So really I don’t think you can generalize, it really depends on the family and its individuals.

 

[sarahraegraham]

I find it interesting that while many posters have replied and responded about not judging individual couples and gotten very defensive about it, no one has yet to respond to any of the concerns I have brought up about it. Almost everything that has been said inserts the “couple” as God and leaves it up to God “only” if they “feel” it’s prudent. And as a previous poster mentioned, we’re not talking about exceptions here, we’re talking about the rule.

*IF *NFP is only to be used (per Church teaching) for grave reasons (and by the term grave, the Church is putting up some very clear boundaries) then NFP should *ALWAYS * be the exception, not the rule. And yet, an enormous amount of people are using it when it’s just them convincing themselves that it’s okay. “Hey, look at us! We’re good Catholics, and we can still limit our family like the culture and yet pat ourselves on the back and say we’re doing a much better thing!”

Being open to life does not mean that you will/should have a million children. It means that you let God decide and trust him to provide. To do anything else is playing God. Honestly, how many times a week do you and your spouse make love? A woman can get pregnant only within a 24-hour period every month. So in order to be constantly pregnant and having a million kids, you would have to be having sex at least every 48 hours for your entire child-bearing years. Seriously, who does that? Do you? What’s the average, like once a week? I find that most people who get defensive about defining openness to life are just justifying themselves.

When it comes down to it, all a couple who is using NFP in this way is doing is saying “Here’s when I can get pregnant, so we won’t do it then, but if we do get pregnant anyway, well, we were still open to life.” Baloney! Being open to life means being open, and you are purposefully closing yourself when life will occur. If you were open, you wouldn’t be paying attention. Yes, biology is a factor, but God only uses the biology, He is not controlled by it! If He says yes, it’s yes. If He says no, it’s no.

Sorry if I offend, that’s not my intent. But before you get angry and respond, take a good hard look at what my first post said and this one, and then take a good hard look at your own logic and intentions.

 

[pumpkinbeast]

I find it interesting that while many posters have replied and responded about not judging individual couples and gotten very defensive about it, no one has yet to respond to any of the concerns I have brought up about it. Almost everything that has been said inserts the “couple” as God and leaves it up to God “only” if they “feel” it’s prudent. And as a previous poster mentioned, we’re not talking about exceptions here, we’re talking about the rule.

*IF *NFP is only to be used (per Church teaching) for grave reasons (and by the term grave, the Church is putting up some very clear boundaries) then NFP should *ALWAYS * be the exception, not the rule. And yet, an enormous amount of people are using it when it’s just them convincing themselves that it’s okay. “Hey, look at us! We’re good Catholics, and we can still limit our family like the culture and yet pat ourselves on the back and say we’re doing a much better thing!”

Being open to life does not mean that you will/should have a million children. It means that you let God decide and trust him to provide. To do anything else is playing God. Honestly, how many times a week do you and your spouse make love? A woman can get pregnant only within a 24-hour period every month. So in order to be constantly pregnant and having a million kids, you would have to be having sex at least every 48 hours for your entire child-bearing years. Seriously, who does that? Do you? What’s the average, like once a week? I find that most people who get defensive about defining openness to life are just justifying themselves.

When it comes down to it, all a couple who is using NFP in this way is doing is saying “Here’s when I can get pregnant, so we won’t do it then, but if we do get pregnant anyway, well, we were still open to life.” Baloney! Being open to life means being open, and you are purposefully closing yourself when life will occur. If you were open, you wouldn’t be paying attention. Yes, biology is a factor, but God only uses the biology, He is not controlled by it! If He says yes, it’s yes. If He says no, it’s no.

Sorry if I offend, that’s not my intent. But before you get angry and respond, take a good hard look at what my first post said and this one, and then take a good hard look at your own logic and intentions.

You need to take a look again at what the Church teaches, and some basic biology. Sperm can survive inside a woman for about 3 days, and I’ve heard up to 5, so you could have sex only every, say, 4 days, and still get pregnant quite easily.

“Here’s when I can get pregnant, so we won’t do it then, but if we do get pregnant anyway, well, we were still open to life.”

Yes, that is EXACTLY how you’re supposed to use NFP. This is the attitude you have. You are deciding to abstain for a period of time, and the Church teaches that this is totally acceptable.

From Humanae Vitae:

Responsible Parenthood

1. Married love, therefore, requires of husband and wife the full awareness of their obligations in the matter of responsible parenthood, which today, rightly enough, is much insisted upon, but which at the same time should be rightly understood. Thus, we do well to consider responsible parenthood in the light of its varied legitimate and interrelated aspects.

With regard to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means an awareness of, and respect for, their proper functions. In the procreative faculty the human mind discerns biological laws that apply to the human person. (9)

With regard to man’s innate drives and emotions, responsible parenthood means that man’s reason and will must exert control over them.

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.

Responsible parenthood, as we use the term here, has one further essential aspect of paramount importance. It concerns the objective moral order which was established by God, and of which a right conscience is the true interpreter. In a word, the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society.

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out.

Emphasis my own.

So, IF those decided to delay having children were doing it with the attitude warned against in the last paragraph, they would have a contraceptive attitude. BUT if they are deciding to delay because they have serious reason and have discerned prayerfully with God, then there is NOTHING wrong with that, period. Go ahead and read that whole document, it’s got a lot of good stuff in it.