Marriage and intimacy

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Secant said:
FTP,

The “grow up and not be so Puritan” was how my friend described what the psychiatrist said. The reference to self-pleasing is polite and non-explicit speech for the grave matter of solo activity or, if I must be so blunt, masturbation. I dislike speaking so bluntly on a public forum that allows 13 year olds.

She has consulted multiple Catholic priests. As for the canon lawyers, physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, sexologists,midwives (do we still have midwives in this day and age or do you mean OB-GYNs, I’m a mom myself and have never heard of a midwife except in history books), et al, where does she go to find them in a distinctly not Catholic (or even well populated) area? How do you find them and is there even such a thing as a doctor who will phone consult?
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Yes, midwives do still exist. Home births or hospital births assisted by midwives are a thing, but the law varies from state to state. In my state, a midwife is generally an LPN or RN with a background in OB who is licensed and works under a doctors supervision. If a pregnancy becomes high risk, the doctor takes over. I actually planned a midwife assisted home birth with my middle child, but during the ultrasound we saw that she wasn’t developing as expected and my blood pressure went up, so I had to start seeing the OB my midwife was working under. Thankfully, my daughter turned out fine. Small, but fine. And I am now on blood pressure meds.

Anyways, yes, some doctors will do phone or Skype/Facetime consults. However, a lot will not due to state laws and insurance company rules. E-mail is a bit different and a great way to network and possible find a specialist that can help.

Do you know if the woman has been checked for PCOS? My sister has very heavy monthlies and sex became extremely painful for her. After seeing multiple doctors over a period of a few years and getting zero results she finally found one that took the time to really investigate. It turned out she had a hormonal imbalance and PCOS.
 
Secant said:
How do you find them and is there even such a thing as a doctor who will phone consult?
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I would start by e-mailing or calling the Pope Paul VI institute and explaining the problem (including travel hardship) and asking for advice. Then try One More Soul, which has a list of NFP-only providers who are, for the most part, faithful Catholics. They separate their list by specialty, including gynecology, family practice. Every person they talk to they should ask not only, how can we fix this, but who else should we talk to? Who would you recommend? Gregory Popcak runs the Pastoral Solutions Institute, recommended by a previous poster, and it is supposed to be very good. I’d write them and see what they say as well.

popepaulvi.com/
onemoresoul.com/nfp-directory
exceptionalmarriages.com/

And yes, midwives are still alive and well. 😉 I had one deliver my last baby. I sought out this midwife because I wanted a hospital birth but with someone who had a very low intervention rate.
 
Secant said:
Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that she needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. They both feel that they are in a permanent state of sin. What can they do?
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Pain is disgusting, so that is sufficient for a minimal understanding. Why is is degrading however? The Puritan idea is that desire and passion are the source of evil.
Is that idea held by the wife?
 
This from the National Center for Women’s Health (I think a child organization of PPVI):
The Pope Paul VI Institute also offers psychology consultations and psychotherapy. If you do not live in the Omaha area, telephone consultations are also available by appointment. Please call the Pope Paul VI Institute to set up an appointment…
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Dr. Kelly Morrow provides psychological services to individual and couples facing a wide variety of life issues including infertility, repeated miscarriage, depression, anxiety, and other medical illnesses. She specializes in Health Psychology and Christian Counseling. Many people seek her services because Dr. Morrow respects their values. Dr. Morrow’s approach to psychotherapy incorporates the mind-body-spirit connection and emphasizes Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy concepts.
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She might also consider googling “dyspareunia” (painful intercourse) + specialists +Catholic or something like that, to see what she can find.
 
I am kind of confused about why the OP, a woman, would be having such an in depth discussion with a close male friend about his intimate life. If my husband ever confided such things to a “close female friend”…yikes. I’d be really upset. I’m sorry, but I think it’s really inappropriate.

That aside, female sexual dysfunction is now becoming something that OBGYNs are more familiar with and more skilled at diagnosing and treating. Even over the last several years there have been a lot of improvements in understanding of such conditions. There is a lot of help out there now- it might take some research and potentially cost for travel, but it is possible to get good professional help. If that’s not feasible right now for this couple, perhaps it will be as the baby gets older and funds become available. However, OP, I would discourage you from engaging in these discussions with someone else’s husband. A husband confiding in another woman about the health/mental state/sexual issues of his wife is not prudent or appropriate.
 
Lorelei12 said:
However, OP, I would discourage you from engaging in these discussions with someone else’s husband. A husband confiding in another woman about the health/mental state/sexual issues of his wife is not prudent or appropriate.
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Quite right, especially since he is a frustrated husband not having his needs met. Such discussions with another woman seem highly imprudent.

The other thing is, it seems to come across from your description of her that she is more repulsed by sex than pained by it. If a psychiatrist has already described her attitude as ‘Puritan’, perhaps this is where she should start looking for a flawed attitude. Do you know if she was sexually abused as a child or inappropriately exposed to vision of sexual activity. Or if her mother was overly descriptive about the dirtiness of sex in her teens. My mother had a habit of describing people who were not married but having sex as ‘a pair of stray dogs’ and that’s still something I have to put to the back of my mind when it comes to sex.

I think if she at least continues to try and find a cure for her problems that is an important act of good will towards her husband. If she doesn’t want to try but treats sex grudgingly, I think the marriage will slowly erode.
 
fpt said:
In my humble opinion, the wife should to discuss with catholic specialists of different disciplines in order to get information about the issues of the morality of the conjugal act (her rights, her obligations and her duties, and his rights, his obligations, his duties as conjugal lover in her favor), on the morality of different aspects linked to modus operandi of this act of love, and on her own sexual troubles. She should consult* some catholic priests, some catholic theologians, some catholic philosophers, some catholic canon lawyers, some catholic general physicians, some catholic psychiatrists, some catholic psychologists, some catholic psychoanalysts, some catholic sexologists, some catholic midwifes* in order to identify:

…
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I sincerely think this is very wise advice.

I would be greatly encouraged, however, if someone could direct me to a source of positive testimonials from couples who actually made progress via these avenues.

Praying for us all,
  • curl
 
Secant said:
Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that she needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. They both feel that they are in a permanent state of sin. What can they do?
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What was her childhood like? What is her relationship with her parents? Was she ever sexually or physically abused? The painful things that happen to us in childhood can stick around in our unconscious and surface in many ways. One way being sexual issues. Contemplative prayer can be a very healing exercise if done consistently. Long term therapy to address childhood issues, which I suspect there must be, is vital. If those childhood roots have not been dealt with they will show their ugly head in many ways in adulthood.

They should be able to work together as a couple to figure out ways that pleasure her.
 
Secant,

You said they have a child who is too small to be without mom for a few hours. Yet, they want to try for another baby in 2 months. But the mom can’t leave baby to go far away to get treatment. At this point the treatment seems absolutely essential to the health of her marriage.

This is clearly a lack of prudence. This couple needs to get this issue in their marriage healed before they bring more children into it. I know money is also an issue. If you do not have enough money to take care of a serious issue in your marriage then you need to postpone a pregnancy and save money. That to me is the common sense God wants us to use when planning our family.

This is a grave issue. Getting the proper treatment and diagnosis needs to be their first priority. Having another child would just divert the attention away from this issue and affect the health of the marriage.

I also wanted to ask what was her early religious catechesis like? Was there an unhealthy view of sex taught? Was there a rigid view of God taught?
 
Thank you all. Passing along this information has apparently led to good discussion, and they are looking at some of the options (doctors on a phone for instance). They’d never heard of some of these conditions, nor of doctors who do phone consults. (Ok, me either, or I wouldn’t have asked here.)
 
Secant said:
FTP,

The “grow up and not be so Puritan” was how my friend described what the psychiatrist said. The reference to self-pleasing is polite and non-explicit speech for the grave matter of solo activity or, if I must be so blunt, masturbation. I dislike speaking so bluntly on a public forum that allows 13 year olds.

She has consulted multiple Catholic priests. As for the canon lawyers, physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, sexologists,midwives (do we still have midwives in this day and age or do you mean OB-GYNs, I’m a mom myself and have never heard of a midwife except in history books), et al, where does she go to find them in a distinctly not Catholic (or even well populated) area? How do you find them and is there even such a thing as a doctor who will phone consult?
Click to expand...
The nurse who assists in the delivery of a baby typically holds a qualification as a mid-wife. The mid-wife may manage the entire delivery if the OBGYN arrives late, as is not uncommon.
 
My first concern would be to determine why an ordinary pelvic exam is painful for this woman. Is there a physical cause?

Then, I would want to see them find a therapeutic ally or two who can assist on resolving any of the relationship or psychological issues. There are many possibilities, including PTSD from childhood molestation, which she may not even remember at this time.
 
pensmama87 said:
Were they regular OBs or did they specialize in pelvic pain or related issues? Did they all work in the same practice or for the same health/hospital system? Can they use Angie’s List or another service provider search to find someone else? There are sexologists who specialize in the treatment of sexual dysfunction. That’s probably who this woman would need to see.

Even if it is primarily psychological (you say one psychiatrist, did you mean one or more there, too?) there are still techniques or other things that can be tried medically. That might help in conjunction with therapy. A psychiatrist may not be the best option, either - they might be better off with a psychologist or licensed counselor. Finding one who will respect their values can occur even if the person is not Catholic or even Christian. If they are competent, they will respect Catholic values.
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I haven’t read all the comments yet, but there were a lot of good points here.

I think a psychiatrist would be the very last person I’d go to for gynecological pain.

She probably needs both a medical specialist to deal with the physical issues and a counselor to help her have the courage to deal with getting through the course of treatment. Learning some relaxation methods could help at least a little.
 
Secant said:
Yes, pensmama87, they’ve worked with three psych-something’s, one -ologist, one -iatrist, and one other - I don’t remember what he told me that one was. They’ve also seen four priests over the years, three who gave essentially no advice and one who suggested they try a Josephite marriage.

The OB’s were the only ones available without significant time, money, and travel requirements (that they both agree they cannot afford -according to him). There was one sexologist they thought about seeing who is Catholic, but upon investigating, they found that he does not have a valid office and no hospital or medical professional in his county knows who he is or would give him privileges to use their facilities.

I will suggest Angie’s list, but where we both live, all communities within 100 miles make up a phone book of less than a page per mile. I doubt they can recommend any more than we can easily find by walking down Main Street.
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When you’ve got a serious medical problem, you’ve got to be prepared to travel long distances and to spend serious amounts of money doing it. We live in a city with a population in six digits and very good basic health care, but we still occasionally find ourselves travelling to “the big city” or a couple of cities over for specialist care (a diagnostic ultrasound or a pediatric gastroenterologist, etc). In an area like you describe, one has to travel.

I wouldn’t recommend going to that sort of expense for just anybody, but once they find a reputable specialist with a specialty in gynecological pain, I would suggest starting to save up for trips and appointments. Even just the saving money will give them the feeling of making progress.

What could possibly be more important than fixing this situation?
 
sailor28 said:
Secant,

You said they have a child who is too small to be without mom for a few hours. Yet, they want to try for another baby in 2 months. But the mom can’t leave baby to go far away to get treatment. At this point the treatment seems absolutely essential to the health of her marriage.

This is clearly a lack of prudence. This couple needs to get this issue in their marriage healed before they bring more children into it. I know money is also an issue. If you do not have enough money to take care of a serious issue in your marriage then you need to postpone a pregnancy and save money. That to me is the common sense God wants us to use when planning our family.

This is a grave issue. Getting the proper treatment and diagnosis needs to be their first priority. Having another child would just divert the attention away from this issue and affect the health of the marriage.
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Right.

I would not hurry to add another child to this situation, as the logistics are already very difficult.
 
I didn’t read all the way through the previous comments, so I apologize if any of this has been said already, but here are my thoughts:
  1. How did she deliver her baby? Was it a C-Section? If it was a vaginal birth, I’m surprised she still finds sex so painful. That to me would suggest it’s a psychological thing rather than a physical thing … But if it was a C-section, I’ll move on to …
  2. I’ve heard that they make some medical version of sex toys where they come in different lengths/widths, or possibly it’s one thing that can be expanded to different sizes? to sort or work your way up to the full-size object. If her OB-GYN is telling her there’s nothing physically wrong with her, I’m assuming she doesn’t have a problem with having a speculum inserted during an exam, so maybe she just needs to stretch?
  3. The condition I’ve heard mentioned in the past that sounds like what she might be experiencing is called vaginismus. It’s essentially an uncontrollable muscle spasm that clamps that part of your body shut. Maybe if she can find a description of her pain online and find a name for it, then the doctors would have a better idea what to look f or
 
QuasiCatholic said:
How did she deliver her baby? Was it a C-Section? If it was a vaginal birth, I’m surprised she still finds sex so painful. That to me would suggest it’s a psychological thing rather than a physical thing … But if it was a C-section, I’ll move on to …
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Just want to point out that this is not necessarily the case. You can be very badly injured during a vaginal birth, and take a long time to recover. Even without serious injury, not everyone bounces back easily. Lots of pelvic floor issues arise after childbirth.

But, this does bring up an important point- I am not sure how long it’s been since this woman had her baby, but that would be relevant. If she was injured, that matters too. Also if she is breastfeeding, sex can be really painful. However, I will reiterate that I don’t believe it’s appropriate for the OP to be discussing such intimate details with someone else’s husband. He needs to work with his wife to seek the appropriate medical assistance, and not confide in a female friend about it.
 
Lorelei12 said:
Just want to point out that this is not necessarily the case. You can be very badly injured during a vaginal birth, and take a long time to recover. Even without serious injury, not everyone bounces back easily. Lots of pelvic floor issues arise after childbirth.

But, this does bring up an important point- I am not sure how long it’s been since this woman had her baby, but that would be relevant. If she was injured, that matters too. Also if she is breastfeeding, sex can be really painful. However, I will reiterate that I don’t believe it’s appropriate for the OP to be discussing such intimate details with someone else’s husband. He needs to work with his wife to seek the appropriate medical assistance, and not confide in a female friend about it.
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Right all around. And that goes double if the OP is a close female relative rather than just a “friend”.
 
Rau said:
The nurse who assists in the delivery of a baby typically holds a qualification as a mid-wife. The mid-wife may manage the entire delivery if the OBGYN arrives late, as is not uncommon.
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Not to hijack the thread but just to point out: this is not necessarily true. A nurse and a midwife are two different things, though a midwife may also be a nurse.

A registered nurse (RN) is legally permitted to manage labour and delivery of a baby if required. This type of nurse typically has 2.5-4 years’ education (usually 4). He/she is not usually permitted to prenatal care or order medications. In most cases, a RN will deliver a baby ONLY if the primary care provider does not make it in time. (I’m a RN and I have delivered a baby once in just such a situation.) Usually the RN provides monitoring during labour and the regular care provider comes in just to deliver the baby, look the baby over, and provide any additional care (e.g. suturing) that is outside the RN’s scope. Usually if you have an RN providing care during labour you’re in a hospital. (Sometimes in outpost nursing stations in remote communities RNs DO provide prenatal care for low-risk women and may deliver the occasional baby if the mother cannot be sent to a larger hospital in time. However, these nurses receive additional training.) Nurse practitioners, who are RNs with additional training in diagnosis and prescribing, may also do low-risk prenatal care, although they don’t usually handle births unless they are also midwives.

A midwife is a care provider who typically has a 4-year bachelor’s degree in midwifery. He/she is specially trained to take care of women’s health issues. Some midwives may have a diploma or degree in nursing before they enter midwifery; these are usual called certified nurse-midwives. This is not a requirement, though. A midwife who is not also a nurse is usually called a certified professional midwife. Either way, a midwife is trained specifically to provide prenatal care to low-risk women and manage labour and birth of babies in low-risk situations. Usually, they will stay with a mother throughout her entire labour and deliver the baby. Midwives may deliver babies in clients’ homes or hotels, birthing centres, or hospitals.
 
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