Marriage and Love: Is it necessary?

[Ninja_Autobot]

Hi. After looking around the site I figured this was the most appropriate place to ask this question.

My girlfriend and I have been dating for nearly two and a half years. We’re both practicing Catholics (quite a rarity among us college students ). Her basic goal in life is more or less “get married ASAP, have children, raise them to be good Catholics, and go to heaven,” which I think is very noble. I have never had a problem with her wanting to be a housewife–in fact, I think it’s a good choice, since I intend to be the breadwinner, so someone has to stay with the kids, right? Our basic plan has been to get married right after graduating college (I currently have a part time job, saving up for the future).

Anyway, she’s recently been kinda moody, and has been making several indications that she is not completely satisfied with waiting till graduation to marry. Her main argument is that marriage does not require romantic love. In fact, she says, marrying solely for money and in complete absence of romantic feelings is the most effective way to run a marriage, especially since divorce in Catholic marriage would be forbidden except in extreme cases (she uses this as a hypothetical reason for her to drop out of college and marry someone with money). I argue that love is not per se necessary, but should be present, as marriage is a sacrament, and defiling the sacrament in the name of earthly wealth is not in keeping with CCC s. 1661: “The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the union of Christ and the Church. It gives spouses the grace to love each other with the love with which Christ has loved his Church; the grace of the sacrament thus perfects the human love of the spouses, strengthens their indissoluble unity, and sanctifies them on the way to eternal life (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1799).” While I agree that pragmatism and financial security are important parts of secular marriage, it seems wrong to just enter into a sacrament with no feelings other than greed; kind of like going to confession only because you’ll get a clean soul at the end, and not really feeling guilty for your sins. Am I just reading the Catechism wrong? Am I looking at it the wrong way? After all, Christ did not conjoin with the Church because it would benefit Him, nor did the Church solely because there was a benefit in the end.

Any opinions on these opinions would help. (It doesn’t help this is the same person who believes that having children starting at age 22 is too old).

 

[iluvmybabies]

Hi. After looking around the site I figured this was the most appropriate place to ask this question.

My girlfriend and I have been dating for nearly two and a half years. We’re both practicing Catholics (quite a rarity among us college students ). Her basic goal in life is more or less “get married ASAP, have children, raise them to be good Catholics, and go to heaven,” which I think is very noble. I have never had a problem with her wanting to be a housewife–in fact, I think it’s a good choice, since I intend to be the breadwinner, so someone has to stay with the kids, right? Our basic plan has been to get married right after graduating college (I currently have a part time job, saving up for the future).

Anyway, she’s recently been kinda moody, and has been making several indications that she is not completely satisfied with waiting till graduation to marry. Her main argument is that marriage does not require romantic love. In fact, she says, marrying solely for money and in complete absence of romantic feelings is the most effective way to run a marriage, especially since divorce in Catholic marriage would be forbidden except in extreme cases (she uses this as a hypothetical reason for her to drop out of college and marry someone with money). I argue that love is not per se necessary, but should be present, as marriage is a sacrament, and defiling the sacrament in the name of earthly wealth is not in keeping with CCC s. 1661: “The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the union of Christ and the Church. It gives spouses the grace to love each other with the love with which Christ has loved his Church; the grace of the sacrament thus perfects the human love of the spouses, strengthens their indissoluble unity, and sanctifies them on the way to eternal life (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1799).” While I agree that pragmatism and financial security are important parts of secular marriage, it seems wrong to just enter into a sacrament with no feelings other than greed; kind of like going to confession only because you’ll get a clean soul at the end, and not really feeling guilty for your sins. Am I just reading the Catechism wrong? Am I looking at it the wrong way? After all, Christ did not conjoin with the Church because it would benefit Him, nor did the Church solely because there was a benefit in the end.

Any opinions on these opinions would help. (It doesn’t help this is the same person who believes that having children starting at age 22 is too old).

This is an interesting situation…And I admire you sticking with what you are reading and your beliefs… Your gf is very young and she seems a bit confused as to the way things should be and Catholic beliefs and teachings…She doesn’t seem to understand that marrying should be for love the way GOD loves his church and people… I would suggest you keep talking to her about the teachings of the Church and Bible-GOD…

Also she seems a bit insecure, just let her know your feelings and intentions…And remind her that our plans are not God’s plans…(Learning this myself) Ask her to be patient, and you two should pray together (learning about patience myself)…Pray that GOD enlightens you both and especially your gf into understanding what is right and correct and make the best choices in her life…

May GOD bless you both and hope He guides you both in the right direction! I really feel you have your heart in the right place…God bless…

 

[Rascalking]

My friend,

Start at the beginning-22 is a bit too young to start having children! Your not as settled, your not as stable, you still might have to sew your wild oats. Yes, many people have had kids at 22 and been happy for 90 years, but it’s still not the best idea. You want to have some time as a spouse to determine how you both live and your wants and needs before you have an innocent little being who is so dependant on you that they don’t even know they are demanding 24 hours of your attention.

Love is very important for a marriage. Regardless of what anyone would like to tell you, the overwhelming majority of people in this world would agree that Love is vital. Having said that, there are many types of loves. Look into the book by CS Lewis, The Four Loves. It will explain this much better than how I can. I know some people here might think that Love isn’t very important, but I think they’re wrong. Love is deeply important.

HAving said that, If you want to marry someone just out of a feeling of love, then think twice. Common values and interests are just as important as love. Love can fade, go in and out, but hopefully respect will never fade. Respect is probably more important than love.

On to this woman your dating-I come from a very wealthy family, and there is alot of money in trust for me. That’s probably why I can spend my time writing, with my dogs, and focusing on my passions rather than working! hehehehe. Her, “Marriage for money comment” was repulsive. Red flag too.

Just my opinion man. Good luck to you.

 

[srlucado]

… Her main argument is that marriage does not require romantic love. … I argue that love is not per se necessary, but should be present, as marriage is a sacrament…

With all due respect, you both have a lot to learn.

Better to have a marriage with love and no money than a marriage with money and no love.

And I can imagine few things worse for children than to be raised in a loveless marriage.

 

[Rascalking]

Srlucado is 100% on! Amen to that!

 

[mikeghiorso]

As an “old married guy” (33 years) I would not want to enter into a marriage without love. If we understand marriage to be a Sacrament, then we accept the grace (love of God) present in that Sacrament. But this love is not bestowed in the ceremony. Rather, it is a growing closer of “the two” into “one flesh.” How anyone could survive the many challenges of marriage without love, I do not know. Marriage is, indeed, a sign/symbol of God’s love for the Church. How could we see that symbol if love was not present? My wife and I struggled financially early in our marriage. We often refer to these as “the good ol days.” But, because of our love for each other, we survived the many challenges … and all of these made our love (and our marriage) stronger.

 

[scott1228]

I am confused about whether you have a question about marriage in general, or marrying this woman specifically. If you have doubts about the latter, why not just find a good priest and see him together? A good priest will be able to give you specific advice for your situation, and something that people that only have a little bit of information won’t be able to give correctly.

Scott

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m a little confused…do you and your gf love each other…now? Or is she saying that since you are saving to marry her, or whatever – that she could find someone with money, and not wait? Sorry, I’m just a little confused, if you could clarify. thanks.

 

[Paladin_V]

Hi. After looking around the site I figured this was the most appropriate place to ask this question.

My girlfriend and I have been dating for nearly two and a half years. We’re both practicing Catholics (quite a rarity among us college students ). Her basic goal in life is more or less “get married ASAP, have children, raise them to be good Catholics, and go to heaven,” which I think is very noble. I have never had a problem with her wanting to be a housewife–in fact, I think it’s a good choice, since I intend to be the breadwinner, so someone has to stay with the kids, right? Our basic plan has been to get married right after graduating college (I currently have a part time job, saving up for the future).

Anyway, she’s recently been kinda moody, and has been making several indications that she is not completely satisfied with waiting till graduation to marry. Her main argument is that marriage does not require romantic love. In fact, she says, marrying solely for money and in complete absence of romantic feelings is the most effective way to run a marriage, especially since divorce in Catholic marriage would be forbidden except in extreme cases (she uses this as a hypothetical reason for her to drop out of college and marry someone with money). I argue that love is not per se necessary, but should be present, as marriage is a sacrament, and defiling the sacrament in the name of earthly wealth is not in keeping with CCC s. 1661: “The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the union of Christ and the Church. It gives spouses the grace to love each other with the love with which Christ has loved his Church; the grace of the sacrament thus perfects the human love of the spouses, strengthens their indissoluble unity, and sanctifies them on the way to eternal life (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1799).” While I agree that pragmatism and financial security are important parts of secular marriage, it seems wrong to just enter into a sacrament with no feelings other than greed; kind of like going to confession only because you’ll get a clean soul at the end, and not really feeling guilty for your sins. Am I just reading the Catechism wrong? Am I looking at it the wrong way? After all, Christ did not conjoin with the Church because it would benefit Him, nor did the Church solely because there was a benefit in the end.

Any opinions on these opinions would help. (It doesn’t help this is the same person who believes that having children starting at age 22 is too old).

I’d like to discuss this further, but I can’t right now because I’m at work. Hopefully later I’ll get a chance later tonight… being 23 and getting married in 2 weeks eek: :extrahappy, I like to talk about this stuff. I’d just say that it seems like you more or less have your head on straight but she does not… don’t do anything rash!

 

[budgie2]

I did the same thing and got married after university. How long have you go to wait? I think it depends if you’re in a sexual relationship or not. If you’re not in a sexual relationship it might make better sense to wait but some times people in sexual relationships end up having children before marriage. Sex outside of marriage can also make a person feel unhappy and unstable. In which case you might want to get married as soon as possible. If you can abstain then waiting till graduation will allow her to finish her degree without children on the horizon unless you decide to use NFP to prevent after you get married.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Not sure I’d want my son marrying a woman who said…“hypothetically speaking”…‘I could leave you and marry someone with money,’ when illustrating a point.

Be wary of someone who wants to get married “asap.” Be wary of someone who talks about the future in terms of “I” instead of “we.” And above all, marry someone who loves you. Marry someone you love. Sounds like you both do love each other, again, I’m not completely clear on your question. *

 

[Little_Katie]

My friend,

Start at the beginning-22 is a bit too young to start having children!

I disagree on this. My son was born when I was 20. My husband (24) and myself (now 21) run a perfectly stable household that is built on love and I think my son is very lucky to be living in our home.

Granted my husband is military so we don’t have many worries about financial stability that would likely plague young marriages outside of the military.

*Not sure I’d want my son marrying a woman who said…“hypothetically speaking”…‘I could leave you and marry someone with money,’ when illustrating a point.

Be wary of someone who wants to get married “asap.” Be wary of someone who talks about the future in terms of “I” instead of “we.” And above all, marry someone who loves you. Marry someone you love. Sounds like you both do love each other, again, I’m not completely clear on your question. *

I agree on this point completely. Marriage MUST be founded on love and be something that both persons desire. You can’t rush a marriage if she is the only one who wants it. I don’t think that getting married is something you need to “wait” to do, but only if it is what you truely want.

I will be honest in saying that I married my husband when I was 19 and still fairly fresh out of highschool after dating him for only a year. A lot of people (including myself if I were hearing the same story about another person, I admit) would find this idea foolish… But I am telling you that if it’s a real love you have nothing to worry about if you WANT to marry her.

But based off this post I am willing to bet you aren’t ready for that step yet. If your GF really loves you she will be patient and understand this. If she loves you she won’t leave you for anyone w/ money or any nonsense like that.

 

[Ninja_Autobot]

Wow, so many quick replies! Thanks, everyone!

It would seem some of you are confused about the post, so a little clarification: this post was mainly to seek other points of view on the topic of marriage and whether or not romantic love is necessary. I personally would LOVE to marry her right now, but the fact of the matter is, I would not be able to provide for her and our children. She recently turned 20, and was sad because by that age her mom had been married. She’s a natural born mother and really wants to have kids.

I’m glad for all these opinions, though. Especially from those of you who are married (or soon to be). Thanks!

@iluvmybabies:
Thanks for the advice. She can be quite the impatient one sometimes XP

@Rascalking:
I agree, marrying solely for love is quite problematic.

@scott1228
Yeah, marriage in general. Although I have been tempted to ask a priest I know what the Church would say about it, so I think I may just do that.

@whatevergirl
We still love each other, yes. She’s just a bit impatient.

@budgie2
No, we’re still abstaining.

@Little Katie
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I do WANT to marry her, I’m just not financially stable just yet.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[LongingForLight]

You cited exactly the right part of the Catechism. Hard to be a living sign of love if you don’t actually love each other At the same time, love is more of a decision or an action than a feeling - the feelings just help you decide, IMO. You encourage the feelings not because you can’t love without feeling “in love”, but because it’s easier to decide to love if you feel “in love”.

22 is not, IMO, too young to be having children (at least, not for everyone). However, I am blatantly biased, as that is the age I was when my twins were born - and it worked fine (finances were a bit stresful, but that was it). At the same time, it depends on the persons involved. Saying it’s “too old” seems strange, but maybe she knows that she really wants a very large family already? Still, when she starts having children just simply isn’t her decision alone to make - God and her future husband also get a say.

Is this “marrying for money” thing her consistent opinion, or just one conversation? I’m wondering if she could just be trying these ideas on for size to see how they fit in with the rest of her values, or just “playing” with the concepts. You both sound like rather brainy people.

As someone who was impatient to marry and have children myself maybe you could help her relax by making a bit more of a plan with her. Maybe get one of those books on “100 questions to ask before getting married”, and work through it with her. This could also be her biological clock kicking in - I started getting baby cravings (or “baby fever”, as it’s also called) around age 20 or so. All of the sudden, I just wanted a husband and baby and started feeling like I would never have one! Talking with my boyfriend / fiance about baby names, wedding plans, etc. really helped me feel “in touch” with a future that involved children. If this is what is going on with her, expect her to want children as soon as you marry, and plan accordingly.

If she really does want to get married before graduation, you may have to either take a stand on wanting to graduate first (which may have a small risk of her breaking up with you, and will almost certainly be frustrating for her - but it’s completely fair, and if she loves you then she will want to work with you on this), or comprimise somehow.

Honestly, I would lean towards standing your ground. A college degree is a beautiful thing, and I would encourage your girlfriend to finish hers as well. I did marry before finishing college, but I also knew the work (and poverty) involved in caring for a baby and going to college at the same time and was willing to accept that if necessary - plus I was only a single quarter away from graduation, and could have finished up easily before any baby was born.

I’m assuming you guys have some feelings for each other, if you’ve been together 2.5 years already.

 

[Ninja_Autobot]

You cited exactly the right part of the Catechism. Hard to be a living sign of love if you don’t actually love each other At the same time, love is more of a decision or an action than a feeling - the feelings just help you decide, IMO. You encourage the feelings not because you can’t love without feeling “in love”, but because it’s easier to decide to love if you feel “in love”.

I completely agree.

{quote]22 is not, IMO, too young to be having children (at least, not for everyone). However, I am blatantly biased, as that is the age I was when my twins were born - and it worked fine (finances were a bit stresful, but that was it). At the same time, it depends on the persons involved. Saying it’s “too old” seems strange, but maybe she knows that she really wants a very large family already? Still, when she starts having children just simply isn’t her decision alone to make - God and her future husband also get a say.

Oh, believe me, she wants a BIG family. Ask her what her ideal number of children is, and she’ll tell you it’s never enough. And when you ask her seriously, she’ll say seven. Not that that’s a problem.

Is this “marrying for money” thing her consistent opinion, or just one conversation? I’m wondering if she could just be trying these ideas on for size to see how they fit in with the rest of her values, or just “playing” with the concepts. You both sound like rather brainy people.

Good question. She’s exceptionally conservative (I am too, but not as much as her), so it is no surprise to me that she began having these thoughts after we got into college at a liberal university (as compared to the Catholic high school we attended), so she went into reactionary mode. It’s just her way of dealing with differing opinions, I think.

And you have no idea how brainy we are XP But that’s one of the reasons I love her so much.

As someone who was impatient to marry and have children myself maybe you could help her relax by making a bit more of a plan with her. Maybe get one of those books on “100 questions to ask before getting married”, and work through it with her. This could also be her biological clock kicking in - I started getting baby cravings (or “baby fever”, as it’s also called) around age 20 or so. All of the sudden, I just wanted a husband and baby and started feeling like I would never have one! Talking with my boyfriend / fiance about baby names, wedding plans, etc. really helped me feel “in touch” with a future that involved children. If this is what is going on with her, expect her to want children as soon as you marry, and plan accordingly.

Wow, that’s pretty much exactly what she’s doing XD

If she really does want to get married before graduation, you may have to either take a stand on wanting to graduate first (which may have a small risk of her breaking up with you, and will almost certainly be frustrating for her - but it’s completely fair, and if she loves you then she will want to work with you on this), or comprimise somehow.

Honestly, I would lean towards standing your ground. A college degree is a beautiful thing, and I would encourage your girlfriend to finish hers as well. I did marry before finishing college, but I also knew the work (and poverty) involved in caring for a baby and going to college at the same time and was willing to accept that if necessary - plus I was only a single quarter away from graduation, and could have finished up easily before any baby was born.

That’s what I’ve been doing and plan on doing. I know that waiting can be frustrating (we graduate in 2011, so it’s no easy wait for me either), but I also know that people with degrees make millions more over their lifetime, and since I want my children to have the best care possible, I would like to take the path that makes me more able to do so.

I’m assuming you guys have some feelings for each other, if you’ve been together 2.5 years already.

You betcha ^___^

 

[Rascalking]

I disagree on this. My son was born when I was 20. My husband (24) and myself (now 21) run a perfectly stable household that is built on love and I think my son is very lucky to be living in our home.

Granted my husband is military so we don’t have many worries about financial stability that would likely plague young marriages outside of the military.
.

Ma’am, I said in the later parts of my post that some people have done and can still lead happy lives.

As a general rule, I totally stand by what I said. Many people I know personally have married young, had em’ young, and divorced all before 30.

I said it’s generally not a good idea. I didn’t say it is always a bad idea.

 

[budgie2]

I can understand that she feels perhaps the education is for money or perhaps the wedding plans are revolving too much about money. As a woman who decided to take a part time job to look after my children I have never currently used my degree. So she might think it’s unimportant for her. However if you’re going to the be the financial breadwinner finishing your education might be important for you if you’re still abstaining. Having a degree might help you to get a better job so that she can live her dream of staying at home looking after her kids. Also if you’ve already worked hard on your course you might aswell get a qualification at the end and sometimes parents and the state have paid for the education you’ve already had. So stick it out. It’s also normal to feel up and down when engaged and get cold feet at times. Relationships are hard and for me getting married made me feel more stable. Sorry to have inquired about your private life. There are people who leave college to get married and that might be right for them. But it might be more of a concern if you’re living far apart and not studying together.

 

[johankrava]

This is how I see marriage:

If there is no love then there can not be a successful marriage.
Love does not mean just romance, it has a much wider and deeper meaning.
Unsuccessful marriage sooner or later leads to divorce.
Do not hurry with marriage, you can live together until both are ready for this step.
If you at some time find out that the marriage was a mistake then do not make another one, try to divorce asap.

 

[rayne89]

My friend,

Start at the beginning-22 is a bit too young to start having children! Your not as settled, your not as stable, you still might have to sew your wild oats.

Did this slip by others attention -sew your wild oats? Studies have shown that sewing your wild oats contributes to more divorce than having kids at 22.

Yes committing mortal sin is a great way to prepare for a stable marriage.

All that said - if your girlfriend doesn’t love you, my opinion is you should not be getting married.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Ok… I’m going to speak from the perspective of a woman who does not have children nor wants them. I can come with a different POV. I am not saying not to have children.

One of the things I have noticed about many MANY women (although, not all women) and especially YOUNG women at your age (teens to mid 20’s) there’s this romantic notion they have that they will find their handsome knight in shining armour, get married in the most perfect wedding, make a ton of babies, and then life is lived “Happily Ever After.”

For some young women, this intense obsession (that I, admittedly do not understand) clouds their rational judgement as to who their lifelong mates and their “baby daddy” will be. It’s sad, to be sure. This has only wreaked havoc and cause drama and trouble later on in life. It’s usually not pretty and when life becomes the “day to day trudge” of living, if you don’t have a solid foundation and these illusions get quashed, life can get difficult and resentment and blame can start - resentment of unmet expectations are certainly poisonous to a person and to a relationship.

I don’t know if your current girlfriend has what my CF friends and I call, “baby rabies.” That is essentially that a woman can be so obsessed with having babies (and yes, those women exist) they go to any length to have them. So, I don’t know if that’s the rush your girlfriend has. From my POV, it sort of seems like it is. But I admit I may be wrong. At that age, she’s probably just anxious to get her life started - the end of college can seem so far away. Some people (both men and women) do not have long term planning skills.

You’re being very practical in waiting. Love can be romantic, and yet it can also be practical. You have been given excellent suggestions and advice. Stick to your faith, keep your eyes towards God, and be practical. If you are going to be the breadwinner of the family, you NEED to finish your education. I’m sorry, but your girlfriend’s idea about marriage seems rather skewed. She may be in a rush to get to “Happily Ever After.” Motherhood is romanticized and many young girls fall for that. Parenthood is hard. It’s not easy and should not be taken lightly nor flippantly. Same with marriage. Love is continued action, not just “have fun and make babies!”

Also, I believe that you have to take a 6 months pre-marriage course in the church. If you have time for that, suggest that the two of you sign up for one now. If anything, and she doesn’t want to wait until graduation, this marriage class (which I think is now required in order to get married in the Catholic church, but I may be wrong about that) will give her time to cool her jets and have start viewing marriage and parenthood properly.

My prayers are with you.