Marriage and Sex

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USCCB Catechism: “Every moral act consists of three elements: the objective act (what we do), the subjective goal or intention (why we do the act), and the concrete situation or circumstances in which we perform the act… All three aspects must be good – the objective act, the subjective intention, and the circumstances – in order to have a morally good act.” (United States Catholic Catechism for Adults, p. 311-312.)
That all depends on what is defined as an “act”. Is the marital embrace an act in and of itself or is it a culmination of individual acts each not being related to the other? When a couple is making love are we to define each and every move as a separate act, reflect on it and then proceed with the possibility of moral culpability or are we to realize that the love expressed is a union of actions that result in conjugal love and procreation?

This is a vital question that you cannot avoid answering. If you say that the marital embrace is a series of non connected acts and that each movement has an end within itself, then what exactly constitutes the "act " of the marital embrace. Can you PLEASE answer this for all of us here???
 
Could you elaborate which types are not? Or is EVERYTHING outside of intercourse gravely immoral? You continue to fail in answering this question for me. Just give me a straight answer and show me and others here enough respect by clarifying exactly what is allowed in the marital embrace. “Certain types of so-called foreplay” leaves open for other types. Might you PLEASE mention what those might be??
It is my understanding that other “things” are moral as long as it ends with the man inside the woman.
 
That all depends on what is defined as an “act”. Is the marital embrace an act in and of itself or is it a culmination of individual acts each not being related to the other? When a couple is making love are we to define each and every move as a separate act, reflect on it and then proceed with the possibility of moral culpability or are we to realize that the love expressed is a union of actions that result in conjugal love and procreation?

This is a vital question that you cannot avoid answering. If you say that the marital embrace is a series of non connected acts and that each movement has an end within itself, then what exactly constitutes the "act " of the marital embrace. Can you PLEASE answer this for all of us here???
I agree that you have identified the correct issue, but he cannot answer your question. Either everything is its own marital embrace, in which no touching of any kind is allowed except intercourse (including kissing), or a single marital act includes all of the acts surrounding intercourse. Ron has steadfastly opposed the second position, and the first is absurd on its face, so do not expect an answer.
 
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Never ceases to amaze me, the deeply personal information that people post here.
People who post such information are trying to see whether they are committing sin. That such content will be in a post will almost always be obvious from the thread title, and those uncomfortable with this area are free to not click on these threads.
 
What was that bishop’s quote? The couple could swing form the chandeleres for all he cares, as long as they have an open to life ending?

Yeah. Pretty much from what I’ve read, it’s no holds barred as long as it is a procreative end, and the dignity of each party in maintained, which I believe means the exclusion of practices like S&M
 
I agree that you have identified the correct issue, but he cannot answer your question. Either everything is its own marital embrace, in which no touching of any kind is allowed except intercourse (including kissing), or a single marital act includes all of the acts surrounding intercourse. Ron has steadfastly opposed the second position, and the first is absurd on its face, so do not expect an answer.
I know, camerong, but he must be brought to task for his outlandish assertions. Thank you for supporting my position which is held by almost everyone here. And of course I would not expect that Ron will answer me. It’s not a very good image for one who wishes to promote his “catholic” website and all of his theological teachings but then we do not have to subscribe to them either. Have a blessed day and God bless!
 
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Never ceases to amaze me, the deeply personal information that people post here.
First of all, I was just asking a question because I was curious, i never said that this was my situation. And, second people are coming here to ask for advice, you don;t have to judge or assume things.
 
It is my understanding that other “things” are moral as long as it ends with the man inside the woman.
There is no magisterial source stating such a basis for marital sexual ethics.

There are three fonts of morality. No act is moral unless all three fonts are good. So it cannot possibly be true that every act is moral in the marital bedroom as long as an act of natural intercourse is included (or intended to be included) as some point in time.

The Magisterium does definitively teach that all three fonts of morality must be good for any act to be moral. Why is the approach completely ignored in marital sexual ethics? The marital bedroom is no exception.
 
teachccd,

I’ll rephrase your questions as:
  1. in terms of morality, what constitutes an act?
An act is a knowing choice. Each and every knowing choice in human life is either moral (at least morally permissible) or immoral. It is never the case in any area of human endeavor that a set of choices is morally evaluated as one act. Each act stands on its own as to its morality. Now a set of acts might all be sinful, or might all be moral. But it is never the case, in any area of morality, that an act that is sinful to do on its own becomes moral as part of a larger set of acts.

Any unnatural sexual act is intrinsically evil because it is a sexual act (a deliberate use of the genitive sexual faculty) that is non-procreative and also not truly unitive. Most Catholics agree that for a husband and wife to commit such an act by itself is gravely immoral. The reason is that the moral object is evil. But committing essentially the same type of act (the same species of act), before or after natural marital relations, does not justify the act.

And the claim that all the knowing choices of a session in the marital bedroom merge to form one moral unity has been explicitly rejected by the Magisterium.

“Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these.” HV, n. 14.

“But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.” Casti Connubii, n. 54.

Every knowingly chosen act has three fonts of morality. One act may not borrow the fonts of another act. A sexual act which lacks the procreative meaning (an unnatural sexual act) is intrinsically evil, and it cannot become moral by borrowing the procreative meaning from a different sexual act (natural intercourse). Each knowingly chosen act stands on its own as to its morality.
  1. which types of foreplay are moral between a husband and wife?
    The lengthly answer is here:
    catechism.cc/articles/QA.htm#04
    Notice that my answer is based on the three fonts of morality, and on the teaching of the Magisterium about the unitive and procreative meanings of sexual acts.
In summary, each and every sexual act must be marital, unitive, and procreative. Natural marital relations open to life is the only moral sexual act. Unnatural sexual acts are therefore not moral to use as foreplay.

However, other acts of foreplay, which are not sexual acts, are moral in marriage (always with three good fonts), such as kissing, embracing, caressing, etc.
 
I agree that you have identified the correct issue, but he cannot answer your question. Either everything is its own marital embrace, in which no touching of any kind is allowed except intercourse (including kissing), or a single marital act includes all of the acts surrounding intercourse. Ron has steadfastly opposed the second position, and the first is absurd on its face, so do not expect an answer.
Thank you for this. This is the best “nutshell” summation of – and refutation of – “Conteism” that I’ve ever seen here.
 
But committing essentially the same type of act (the same species of act),
In my opinion this is where the nexus of the controversy resides in this ongoing discussion. Focus on this.

The question revolves around whether or not the moral species is truly the same. Is it the same moral object?

VC
 
I take it you’re not married. Are you even 18 years old?

When I was a 10 year old boy, I remember thinking that “kissing a girl” would be gross. I was wrong.😉

**You seem to have such a negative sense of sex. ** Sex, foreplay included, can be a very powerful bonding, loving, glorious experience between a husband and wife. Mutual oral foreplay with a willing spouse isn’t gross. It can be awesome. Pleasurable, trusting, unitive, giving etc. Sex, including foreplay, should be a celebration of your marital love.

Fill the glass; don’t empty it.
Paul, it’s pretty difficult to be single and not have a negative attitude towards sex.
 
teachccd,

I’ll rephrase your questions as:
  1. in terms of morality, what constitutes an act?
An act is a knowing choice. Each and every knowing choice in human life is either moral (at least morally permissible) or immoral. It is never the case in any area of human endeavor that a set of choices is morally evaluated as one act. Each act stands on its own as to its morality. Now a set of acts might all be sinful, or might all be moral. But it is never the case, in any area of morality, that an act that is sinful to do on its own becomes moral as part of a larger set of acts.

Any unnatural sexual act is intrinsically evil because it is a sexual act (a deliberate use of the genitive sexual faculty) that is non-procreative and also not truly unitive. Most Catholics agree that for a husband and wife to commit such an act by itself is gravely immoral. The reason is that the moral object is evil. But committing essentially the same type of act (the same species of act), before or after natural marital relations, does not justify the act.

And the claim that all the knowing choices of a session in the marital bedroom merge to form one moral unity has been explicitly rejected by the Magisterium.

“Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these.” HV, n. 14.

“But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.” Casti Connubii, n. 54.

Every knowingly chosen act has three fonts of morality. One act may not borrow the fonts of another act. A sexual act which lacks the procreative meaning (an unnatural sexual act) is intrinsically evil, and it cannot become moral by borrowing the procreative meaning from a different sexual act (natural intercourse). Each knowingly chosen act stands on its own as to its morality.
  1. which types of foreplay are moral between a husband and wife?
    The lengthly answer is here:
    catechism.cc/articles/QA.htm#04
    Notice that my answer is based on the three fonts of morality, and on the teaching of the Magisterium about the unitive and procreative meanings of sexual acts.
In summary, each and every sexual act must be marital, unitive, and procreative. Natural marital relations open to life is the only moral sexual act. Unnatural sexual acts are therefore not moral to use as foreplay.

However, other acts of foreplay, which are not sexual acts, are moral in marriage (always with three good fonts), such as kissing, embracing, caressing, etc.
This is largely the posters interpretation of things…

Not what the Church teaches or Catholic Moral theology…

There can be a kind of moral unity.

The quoting of HV here is a misreading. The point of HV is that one can not say that a little contraception in a few marital acts is ok because on the whole the marriage is open to life…

For some claimed at the time that a marriage as a whole could be open to life even if some acts of intercourse were contraceptive…

that is what is being condemned…

Each marital act must be unititive and open to life…yes this is true. Amen. And the various parts (chaste foreplay) leading up to the completion of the act form a moral unity with the marital act.

The Church and Catholic Moral Theology does not say chaste foreplay cannot be part of the marital act. (and such foreplay can include more than kissing and hugging…but excludes such things as the husbands climax outside of intercourse etc)

And no one will be able to produce even one document (I have stated this numerous times and have not ever had one produced) from the Church that says it does…

I have not followed this thread …but i will say…

The above site is not a recommended site…readers are referred to sources sold by Catholic Answers.
 
Ok, so when it comes to marriage … is anything sexual besides sex considered a sin? Because, in my opinion, anything else is kind of dirty and I would never ever do. But, is it wrong if someone does do it?
As other posters pointed out, as long as the sexual encounter ends in sex, other acts are permissible as foreplay.

Oh, don’t let the other posters harass you for saying that you think that “anything else is kind of dirty.” There’s nothing wrong with thinking that.
 
As other posters pointed out, as long as the sexual encounter ends in sex, other acts are permissible as foreplay.

Oh, don’t let the other posters harass you for saying that you think that “anything else is kind of dirty.” There’s nothing wrong with thinking that.
not entirely the case…

for example the husband cannot climax outside of intercourse …

there are some such things that one would want to thus not do …
 
not entirely the case…

for example the husband cannot climax outside of intercourse …

there are some such things that one would want to thus not do …
That’s what I said, or tried to say, when I said that other acts are permissible as foreplay.

That being said, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. Some of the other posters were criticizing the OP for thinking that. But there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. For that matter, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that sexual intercourse is dirty.
 
teachccd,

I’ll rephrase your questions as:
  1. in terms of morality, what constitutes an act?
How about if you don’t rephrase my question but instead answer it as I asked it?? No can do, I see…
 
That’s what I said, or tried to say, when I said that other acts are permissible as foreplay.

That being said, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. Some of the other posters were criticizing the OP for thinking that. But there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. For that matter, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that sexual intercourse is dirty.
There’s also nothing wrong with thinking oral stimulation is fun and not dirty. Nor with thinking the same along with anything on a lengthy list of sexual activities you probably wouldn’t enjoy which I won’t list here because it would (a) be incomplete and (b) probably get me banned in a hot second.
 
That being said, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. Some of the other posters were criticizing the OP for thinking that. But there’s nothing wrong with thinking that oral stimulation is dirty. For that matter, there’s nothing wrong with thinking that sexual intercourse is dirty.

Thank you! Also, I think i might of used the wrong word when I said “dirty.” It’s just something I don’t think I would feel right doing, i don’t know why… maybe i’m just prude. i don’t find it sexy or appealing. But, i don’t have a husband so i don’t really know i guess. it’s just how i am, so no one take offense!!
 
There can be a kind of moral unity.
There is no magisterial document which says anything like this claim of moral unity.

HV specifically rejects this claim that acts can merge, such that an act which is intrinsically evil when done by itself somehow becomes moral by being done with other acts. Although HV is mainly on the topic of contraception, the same basic moral principles apply to all acts.

The teaching of the Magisterium in the CCC, the Compendium, and Veritatis Splendor make it absolutely clear, as a required belief and not an opinion, that there are three fonts of morality and that all three fonts must be good in order for an act to be moral.

The claim that a set of knowing choices becomes a moral unity is essentially a denial of the doctrine of the three fonts, because each act is not evaluated by the fonts that spring up from and apply to that act. This is only used to justify sexual acts for some reason.

The teaching of the Magisterium that intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention or circumstances is not an opinion, but a required belief. The claim of a moral unity also has the effect of justifying intrinsically evil acts as long as they are part of that ‘moral unity.’
And the various parts (chaste foreplay) leading up to the completion of the act form a moral unity with the marital act.
There is no magisterial teaching which supports this claim, nor any magisterial document using the term ‘moral unity’.

In moral theology, an act is a knowing choice. A set of choices of various sexual acts is not one act. This approach of ‘moral unity’ has the effect of justifying any number and kind of intrinsically evil acts, merely on the basis that one act of natural intercourse occurs at some point in time. In this way, all manner of sexual sins are said to be justified, and the teaching of the Church on the three fonts and on intrinsic evil is nullified (or mostly just ignored).

Labeling an act as ‘chaste’ or as ‘foreplay’ does not justify the act. Labeling a set of acts as a ‘moral unity’ does not justify the acts.
And no one will be able to** produce even one document** (I have stated this numerous times and have not ever had one produced) from the Church that says it does…
Pope Paul VI: “The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.” (Humanae Vitae, n. 11-12).

Therefore, all non-procreative sexual acts are intrinsically evil, and are not justified by the intention to commit a subsequent act of natural intercourse, not by the circumstance that the non-procreative act occurs in conjunction with other acts.

Pope John Paul II: “Consequently, circumstances or intentions can never transform an act, intrinsically evil by virtue of its object, into an act ‘subjectively’ good or defensible as a choice.” (Veritatis Splendor, n. 81.)

Where are the magisterial documents stating ‘moral unity’ or permitting unnatural sexual acts as foreplay? There are none. But I have repeatedly quoted Saints Augusting and Aquinas as condemning unnatural sexual acts within marriage.

However, there are documents teaching that the three fonts of morality are the basis for determining if an act is moral, and that intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, and that each and every marital act must be both unitive and procreative.

It is absurd and patently contrary to the plain meaning of HV to say that ‘each and every marital act’ permits any number of non-procreative and non-unitive sexual acts, supposedly even including climax for the wife. If that were true, then the phrase ‘each and every’ would be null and void.

Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is inherently non-unitive or non-procreative, that such intercourse would merge with unitive and procreative marital acts of past or future to form a single moral entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as those procreative acts (compare Humanae Vitae, n. 14).

“But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who, in exercising it, deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose, sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.” (Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii, n. 54)

“No difficulty can arise that justifies the putting aside of the law of God which forbids all acts intrinsically evil. There is no possible circumstance in which husband and wife cannot, strengthened by the grace of God, fulfill faithfully their duties and preserve in wedlock their chastity unspotted.” (Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii, n. 61)
 
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