Marriage annulment question!!! Help

[Daneam]

Yes, the issue of the sacramentality of the marriage has to do with the intent on the day of the marriage. But there is certainly a valid issue of whether that intent was one truly formed, or simply a romantic passing notion in almost total contradiction to how that person (or both of them) were living their lives as they came to that point""

So for any Catholic wants to get married for reason of romance(that is 99 percent of the cases) the Priest or a psychologist should make sure and put something in writing that a valid intent to get married is form before a Church wedding. Otherwise every divorcee is blaming he or she just fell in love but no true intent is formed to get married. Nobody should come forward as witnesses of marriage unless the Church assures them the couple has formed consent.

 

[MountinMan]

I understand the Church’s teaching on marriage and divorce, and I respect it 100%!! The only thing that I have trouble understanding is the fact that my wife was married several years before we were called to join the Church. She/ we went to Protestant church on and off over the years but we never really understood how serious and for life marriage is. Now that we understand and want desperately to be in full communion with the church, I want to believe that God forgives us for our bad descions and will allow me to raise my family in the Church. I completely understand that the Church MUST uphold Gods word, but I also want to get over our past and start living our life in the Church. We just continue to wait and pray for the day to come that we can be confirmed and be a part of the Church! Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Daneam]

The Roman Rota is dragged out periodically as proof that (some, many, most, the vast majority - take your pick) decrees of nullity by American tribunals are phony.

However, the Rota, by the accounts I have seen, hear maybe 300 to 500 cases a year; the number of cases heard in the US are in the tens of thousands - and the Rota doesn’t just hear cases from the US on appeal, so the total US cases is lower.

Trying to go from 49 case to tens of thousands of cases has no bearing on what is occuring today, or for that matter, what was happening in the 1980’s. It is a logical falacy to presume that the cases the Rota decided were a legitimate sampling of all the cases heard at that time.

There is no question that there have been cases which should not have granted a decree of nullity. But the presumption that the majority, or larger were wrongly decided simply has no factual basis.

The use of psychological inability to confect a marriage is from Canon law. It can be abused; but there is no presumption that it is invalid.

Further, there are more cases that do not obtain a decree of nullity, from research, than there are which obtain a decree. To begin with, marriages which do not end in a finding of nullity don’t get reported. The reporting is for those which are granted a decree.

For those which don’t, they end up not obtaining a decree of nullity in any number of places besides a “final decision”. They may stop the whole process before the petition is filed as the petitioner is told they do not have a case. They may stop anywhere along the way after the paperwork is started, and for any number of reasons, including a decision that it does not appear at that point that there is sufficient evidence that a decree might be granted; and it may be that it comes to a decision, and the decision is that no decree witll be granted. Ater that, it can result in a split decision and not be appealed to the Rota (for any number of reasons).

CARA did research on divorced Catholics,

According to their findings, 7% of divorced Catholics have obtained a decree of nullity.

8% started the process, and did not receive a decree.

And 85% of divorced Catholics have not sought one.

And given the immaturity of young adults, the serial sexual partners that so many of them have had before they do get married, and the high incident of people getting divorced whose parents were also divorced, coupled with the lack of catechesis of the great majority of those under the age of 50, and the low rate of Mass attendance in those age groups, it is a wonder that any of them have the first clue about the indissolubility of marriage. Modern society doesn’t even believe that marriage is soley between a man and a woman. Modern society also accepts serial marriage and divorce, living together without marriage, trial “marriage”, shacking up, and "friends with benefits. and the vast majority of Catholics getting married live their daily lives smack dab in the middle of modern society.

Yes, the issue of the sacramentality of the marriage has to do with the intent on the day of the marriage. But there is certainly a valid issue of whether that intent was one truly formed, or simply a romantic passing notion in almost total contradiction to how that person (or both of them) were living their lives as they came to that point.

I agree that the truth needs to come out; I disagree that the truth does not come out. Tribunals have been working hard to make good decisions; it is time to let go of what happend 20, 25 or 30 years ago and look at what is going on today.

I don’t think you even tried to answer my propose of the statics improbability comparing to other countries including those countries with much secular societies and higher divorce rate like Europe. The US Catholic authority under the pressure from Rome did try to justify the stunning numbers, here are two reasons proposed 1) the US installed a computer system to speed up the process 2) most bad cases screened out by parish priests.

First explanation is just non sense, a better book keeping would speed up the backlog. But it is not logical to think a computer would increase the number of cases granted to a point that with a tiny percentage of the world Catholic population but majority of cases granted. Actually the computer is probably would not speed up the process that much because tribunal is made up of human beings. Even the number of judges increase it still does not explain why the percentage granted is high.

In the late 1960s, for
instance, fewer than 400 annulments were granted each year in all
dioceses of the United States taken together. Today, a fair number of
dioceses grant more than that number each year. The Church as a whole
in the United States is granting tens of thousands annually, and
these numbers are growing.

Moreover, most tribunals admit that the number is actually that “low”
only because many Catholics still do not understand how revised
procedures have made it much easier to obtain an annulment today. In
addition, many other divorced Catholics have entered a second civil
marriage, but simply don’t bother with the Church process because
they have already concluded that all this annulment business is a
legalistic sham–being used by the Church to avoid official
recognition of what the enlightened believe: that divorce and
remarriage is acceptable for Christians.

The second explanation is simply not true, if anything is the opposite. Many parish priest simply refer the cases out. At least it is reasonable to think the US priests are not superman compare priest from other countries.
[edited]

 

[otjm]

Yes, the issue of the sacramentality of the marriage has to do with the intent on the day of the marriage. But there is certainly a valid issue of whether that intent was one truly formed, or simply a romantic passing notion in almost total contradiction to how that person (or both of them) were living their lives as they came to that point""

So for any Catholic wants to get married for reason of romance(that is 99 percent of the cases) the Priest or a psychologist should make sure and put something in writing that a valid intent to get married is form before a Church wedding. Otherwise every divorcee is blaming he or she just fell in love but no true intent is formed to get married. Nobody should come forward as witnesses of marriage unless the Church assures them the couple has formed consent.

I said “romantic passing notion” for a reason. I did not use the word “romance” for the same reason.

A “romantic passing notion” is another way of saying daydreaming. And that is another way of saying that one has a marked lack of maturity about the state of life; if one has had teenagers or is not so far removed in time from when one was a teenager themselves, they will understand.

 

[otjm]

I don’t think you even tried to answer my propose of the statics improbability comparing to other countries including those countries with much secular societies and higher divorce rate like Europe. The US Catholic authority under the pressure from Rome did try to justify the stunning numbers, here are two reasons proposed 1) the US installed a computer system to speed up the process 2) most bad cases screened out by parish priests.

First explanation is just non sense, a better book keeping would speed up the backlog.

You have seriously truncated the issue. It is nowhere near as simple as having computers; and I have seen the issue laid out very clearly (and not by someone simply advocating that all decisions in the US are correct. European countries in general take a much more relaxed view of law, and church law, than does the US; they simply don’t bother with getting a decree of nullity for the larger part. and other countries, for example, in central and south America simply do not have the staffing and the money to be able to set up the tribunals. That is simply factual, and not a matter of “having computers”

Even the number of judges increase it still does not explain why the percentage granted is high.

The percentage granted is not high - it is less than 50% from the only source I have ever been able to find that actually did a study of how many cases are not granted a decree. I have read a whole lot of writing about decrees of nullity, and I have yet to find a source negative about it that actually uses any statistics.

In the late 1960s, for
instance, fewer than 400 annulments were granted each year in all
dioceses of the United States taken together. Today, a fair number of
dioceses grant more than that number each year. The Church as a whole
in the United States is granting tens of thousands annually, and
these numbers are growing.

This is the same old red herring that gets thrown out, as if it had any relevance. Canon law changed after that, and the cases are now decided under a much larger number of issues which cause invalidity of consent. The Church has the authority to make such a decision; and you might think it unwise, but the Church has not seen fit to revise those canons - and that says a mouthful. Your statement presumes that there were only 400 cases because those were the only invalid cases. What it actually proves is nothing because we don’t know if other cases would have come forward if the Church had acknowledged before that date that there were other sources and causes of invalidity. Another way of saying that is you are trying to prove that because they had no laws showing other causes of invalidity, that there were none. All it shows is that there were no other officially recognized causes of invalidity. not that those causes did not exist at the time.

Moreover, most tribunals admit that the number is actually that “low”
only because many Catholics still do not understand how revised
procedures have made it much easier to obtain an annulment today.

It is not a matter of easier. it is a matter that the causes of invalidity in reality now are recognized in law. Reality didn’t change; rather the law changed to reflect reality. Further more, most tribunals have never made any statement. It is rare that a tribunal will make any statement. Their work is in private.

In addition, many other divorced Catholics have entered a second civil marriage, but simply don’t bother with the Church process because
they have already concluded that all this annulment business is a
legalistic sham–being used by the Church to avoid official
recognition of what the enlightened believe: that divorce and
remarriage is acceptable for Christians.

Hogwash. They don’t bother because they most often are among the Catholics who have dropped out of the Church. Most people have no clue about the process; therefore they have no basis to go down the path you suggest.

The second explanation is simply not true, if anything is the opposite. Many parish priest simply refer the cases out. At least it is reasonable to think the US priests are not superman compare priest from other countries.
[edited]

You may wish to call the statistics from CARA all lies; but you have no foundation whatsoever to do so. They have done a bit more work than you have.

 

[Daneam]

What is CARA, can you give me the link? I know the trial itself is private. What I was referring to is something like outreach groups formed by different dioceses on annulment process. I am currently visiting the Philippines, the only country besides Vatican that does not have civil divorce. What I learn is that their civil annulment system is similar to the Church system. The civil Family Code on annulment is a copy of the revised Canon. And the system is 100 percent unworkable. The reason for annulment is almost always mental incapacity. The deciding factor is if one has the money to hire a psychologist and a lawyer, each cost a couple thousand US dollars. Very few in this poor country can afford it. So it become a system for the rich who can afford a secular psychologist report to support mental incapacity. Once the report in hand the civil judge usually rubber stamp the petition for annulment because psychology is a secular discipline that the judge is familiar with unless there is an opposing expert witness in the same discipline which is the case in any other lawsuits involving mental issue. Given 96 percent of the US granted cases that went through trial (others are documentary mostly due to lack of form) is due to mental incapacity, do you know if there is any procedures in placed in a Church setting that would allow fair process(for example respondent has equal access to mental experts) so the judges would have full access of mental state of the parties at the time of marriage? Is there any web link on how it works in reality? My sister in law and her civil married husband went through civil annulment in the Philippines not long ago basically you are almost 100 percent assured of annulment once you come up with the money for the psychologist. They did not bother the Church annulment because it is very rare to be granted even with more Catholics in the Philippines I checked the Manila diocese record where all cases are handled there are around 1200 positive results since the 1600s when the Spanish started the evangelization of the country. So it does not seem an explosion of granted annulments took place with the revised Canon even that was exactly what took place for civil annulments which copy the Church system.

For civil family laws people lives are impacted, for Canon law where to spend eternity is at stake.