Marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Agnostic

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Well it looks like we’re in for another very long post. I really don’t know how you forum-types keep track of everything, but I’ll try my best to organize all my thoughts.

To Feanaro’s Wife: **
“Does a person who is willing to compromise their core beliefs make the best choice in a spouse?”
Neither of us is willing to compromise our core beliefs. We’d never do that. Out core belief is the importance of family and the loving people that surround us. In these people, he finds God and I find a reason to live. We both find happiness.
**
If he is willing to get married outside of the Church, for you, then he is compromising one of his core beliefs and going against the very faith you say he is practicing. Maybe he is a “pick and choose” type of Catholic?

“It sounds like both of you, for all of your scientific/fact/logic type of thinking, have lost the ability to think with your heads instead of just your hearts.”
I’m not sure what you mean by this. I really think we’re both giving this a lot of thought, and I’d love for you to elaborate further so I can better explain to you how this isn’t true.

It’s hard to elaborate when it seems you are not open to any other view points. You are coming at this argument already set to prove that you are right instead of being open. A good argument is one where truth is sought above all else, no matter who’s ego gets hurt.

“And also, your compromises are so unequal!”
I disagree. As an agnostic, I often run into the misconception that somehow my religion matters “less” than other religions, and so I’ll try to dispel this myth.

Not what I said. Your religion and his are equally important. That makes compromise LESS likely.

Getting married in a Catholic Church is more to me than doing something that I “don’t really want to.” As an agnostic, I am a religion with a congregation of one. Catholicism has a congregation of millions. However, both have rules. I’d like people to try to understand that just because there’s only one of me in my religion, this doesn’t mean that it’s easier for me to break my rules. My rules aren’t any less important, and my religion isn’t any less legitimate.

But what rule are you breaking by getting married in the Church?

“For the good of eachother I think you both need to stop glossing over your huge differences and see them for what they are…very big obstacles that will only get bigger as time goes by.”
What is really unpleasant to me is that you’re so dismissive of our relationship. It seems to me that you’d much rather have him get a nice fair Catholic girl, and I go off and find myself a strapping young heathen.
**
I am not dismissive and I am sorry if I came across that way. Honestly I care about what happens to BOTH of you. I have been a member of CAF for a long time. Here in Family Life I would have to say they is a huge number of threads about marriages where one spouse is of a different faith from the other. It causes problems. That is just a fact. So in order for you to have a chance of making this potential marriage work you need to acknowlwdge that. You can’t prepare for what you won’t admit could be coming. It’s like living in tornado alley… it is only prudent to take certain precautions against a storm that may hit. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t live there…but only a fool would live there and think a tornado will never affect them. **

 

[Liberanosamalo]

My boyfriend’s mother is already a (step) grandmother, but I’ve really never closely observed how she “parents” her grandchildren. When I spoke to my boyfriend about this, he introduced me to his mother’s favourite parenting phrase. As she says to her husband: “We raised our children the way we chose, now let them raise theirs.”

I’m laughing a little at this because you inserted the (step) there. That may make the difference between being blase and getting really upset with some people. And it’s one thing for grandma to turn a blind eye to a step-grandchild being given sips of soda or not having a regular bedtime. It’s quite another thing when matters of the faith are involved with her son’s children.

People say all sorts of things that they will or won’t do until it actually happens to them. Just be careful. She may have another phrase in her arsenal he hasn’t heard much: “We didn’t raise you that way!”

 

[1ke]

A couple of people mentioned artificial contraception. Where did this come into play?

Well, you’ve repeatedly referred to your boyfriend as devout and practicing. Contraception is a gravely immoral act.

You stated you had started discussing things related to marriage and family-- you mentioned abortion but not contraception-- and you stated you “pretty much” agreed in the area of the Ten Commandments. Well, this is a HUGE issue in marriage. Therefore, the suggestion to look into this aspect of marriage specifically. It is at the heart of many marital issues seen on this board, most especially in mixed marriages.

 

[1ke]

The point I’m trying to make here, is that both sets of rules are legitimate and equal.

What you are continuing to ignore is that the intersection of your “rules” and his “rules” is the null set. The whole “I’m a good person” routine is not sufficient to build a community of persons in a marriage.

You do not believe in a personal God, and do not believe Jesus is God. He believes in a personal God who is a Trinity. No matter how much you have in common-- when the rubber hits the road he believes Jesus is God and you believe he isn’t. Which of those beliefs will you teach your children?

Mutually exclusive belief systems are not the foundation for an undertaking such as marriage.

 

[I_A]

“Many who marry a Catholic don’t mind having the wedding in the Catholic Church.”
Looks like I’m not most girls. I mind having a wedding in a Catholic Church because it does not represent my faith.

Waiting in line in the JoP’s office, standing up in front of God, your loved ones, your families, I mean, standing up in front of a disgruntled overworked government employee counting down for the clock to strike 5, requesting each of you to slap down your john handcocks next to the X, is your idea of what represents your faith? The plastic bic pen between your fingertips, the clerk in his rolling chair with a black rubber stamp, your lover standing beside you eagerly waiting for his chance to passionately take the bride in his arms and kiss the bride, I mean passionately take that plastic bic in his hands and scrawl his name. The ecstasy!

I know the incessant whine of the fluorescent lights casting green shadows under your lover’s eyes is so romantic. Sure you didn’t exchange vows, but you exchanged signatures, and when it comes to it, that’s what represents you, your hopes, your dreams, your own personal religion.

I hate to be snarky, but does a JoP wedding really represent you? I can fully sympathize with a desire to avoid a wedding that feels does not represent you, but I doubt a JoP wedding would better represent you.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**Before I comment further, could you please explain your beliefs? You describe yourself as agnostic but my understanding of that word is that it is not a religion per se, more like an absence of one although you may be open to finding one. (as opposed to atheism which is much more clearly defined in my opinion).

From your comments so far it seems more like you subscribe to “new age” type of philosophies. I’d love to hear the “rules” that define your life, how they became your rules, and what stops them from changing when your mind does (if anything).

And before you get defensive, I WAS the heathen girl (ummm…I mean agnostic) that married the nice Catholic man. So I can speak from the unique perspective of having been in both a mixed faith (if you can call agnosticism a faith) marriage as well as a shared faith one. I can tell you how different it is. I can tell you the problems and the pitfalls. I know that because we are individuals that no two situtaions will ever be the same, but it can’t hurt to really listen to what you could be signing up for.**

 

[ABello]

Good Morning everyone.

A lot of people have said some really interesting things, which I’m more than eager to comment on.

First and foremost, I’d like to discuss the difference between “most” or “good” Catholics, and MY Catholic boyfriend. I initially referred to him as devout. Big mistake, as devout means things I didn’t even know it meant. I didn’t intend to mislead, but considering I don’t go to church or believe in God, dating someone who does, seems pretty “devout.” I then switched to the word “practicing” until these recent slew of posts where I realized that some of the things people were saying about what “Catholics” believe and how “Catholics” act do not apply to my boyfriend.

For this reason, we’ll no longer think of him as devout or practicing, but rather, as a Cafeteria Catholic, or a Pick-and-Choose Catholic.

Now onto my responses…

To PaulinVA:
“We agree on the end game - achieving salvation for our spouse. We have a common understanding of what marriage itself is. If two people don’t agree on what marriage is, I don’t see how it could work, for the majority of people.”
I think you’re absolutely correct. People who don’t see eye to eye on the fundamentals of marriage cannot have one that works. However, in the case of my boyfriend and I, we agree on the fundamentals of marriage. This notion that marriage is to aid your spouse in achieving heaven is NOT a position that my boyfriend holds.

To AliciaCL:
“I’d strongly recommend you attend RCIA.”
That sounds like a good recommendation, but I may be inelligible because I’m already technically “Catholic,” but I’ll certainly look into it.

“Not trying to criticize you personally but agnosticism is an intellectually lazy position to hold.”
This statement couldn’t be further from the truth. I mentioned earlier that I don’t usually refer to myself as “agnostic,” but I have for the purpose of this forum, for the sake of simplicity. I do not feel that it’s an “intellectually lazy” position, and this leads me to believe that you don’t really understand what “agnosticism” means to me. I don’t simply accept that I don’t know all the mysteries of life, shrug, and go sip a cold beer. I constantly question and reevaluate the world around me, flexing my mental muscles more than you might imagine. Many people would argue that Catholicism is the intellectually lazy religion. After all, everything’s all laid out for you and you just have to blindly follow along like unquestioning sheep. Right? Wrong. I’m sure everyone here understands that Catholicism is much more than my black-and-white portrayal of it. Likely, you’d be offended by such an over-simplification of your religion and you’d conclude that a person who would make a comment like that has no idea what it really means to be Catholic. Please try and see that my agnosticism is just as colourful as your Catholic faith.

To chevalier:
“ABello, may I chime in?”
Please do!

“The first thing is that, as Catholics, we do not believe religions, and sets of beliefs, to be equal.”
This is where I need to distinguish between “most” Catholics and the personal beliefs of my **Cafeteria-Catholic **boyfriend. He believes that his religion and my set of beliefs are equal, thus making your point here only relevant to a different couple. (Of course, you’d have no way of knowing that, so I still thank you for your well-thought out argument )

“Typically, the Catholic believes something ought to be done or something is a great evil and should not be done. The non-Catholic party is indifferent or perhaps believes the Catholic “rule” to be an undue restriction. There is no equal compromise here.”
In my personal situation, neither my boyfriend or myself believes that there is some “great evil” afoot.

“You are not required to make any acts of faith or pretend that you believe if you don’t - even if the wedding takes place in church.”
I’m really glad you brought this up. One of my biggest reservations about being married in the Catholic Church is that I’m very much opposed to being something that I’m not. Pretending to be a believer, (in essence, lying to everyone and myself) on one of the most important days of my life is certainly something I’m not happy with. If I can be married in the Catholic Church without being untrue to myself, this is certainly an attractive option for both myself and my boyfriend.

To Liberanosamalo:
“You are dating. Think of that as walls. Pretty nice walls. They join at the corner. They’re of different strengths and reinforcements.”
I like your wall analogy, but I disagree right from the beginning. We’re different walls, but we’re not different strengths. I assure you, we are equals.

“People say all sorts of things that they will or won’t do until it actually happens to them. Just be careful. She may have another phrase in her arsenal he hasn’t heard much: “We didn’t raise you that way!”
You’re absolutely right. I may have not seen all the colours she had to offer, but I’m taking what I know of her now, how she interacts with her step-grandchildren and with her own adult children who are no longer living in her house, and extrapolating. Hopefully I’m not too far off base.

To Feanaro’s Wife:
“If he is willing to get married outside of the Church, for you, then he is compromising one of his core beliefs and going against the very faith you say he is practicing. Maybe he is a “pick and choose” type of Catholic?”
Yes, you’re correct. See above.

“It’s hard to elaborate when it seems you are not open to any other view points. You are coming at this argument already set to prove that you are right instead of being open. A good argument is one where truth is sought above all else, no matter who’s ego gets hurt”
I’m not going to lie, my boyfriend and I were both very shocked by the type of response we were getting to my question. I will try my best to be open to other views, but (as I hope I’ve illustrated in this post so far) it’s difficult when people are referring to aspects of Catholicism that do not apply to my personal situation, because they conflict with my boyfriend’s interpretation of Catholicism. In short, I’ll try to put my ego on the shelf.

“I am not dismissive and I am sorry if I came across that way. Honestly I care about what happens to BOTH of you.”
Thank you, I appreciate that. I’m sorry I called you dismissive. Friends again?

To 1ke:
“…you stated you “pretty much” agreed in the area of the Ten Commandments. Well, this is a HUGE issue in marriage.”
Sorry, I was unclear. We both agree on the content of the Ten Commandments, we just don’t always follow them 100% of the time. Everyone’s human, and slips happen.

“Which of those beliefs will you teach your children?”
Both. I know, it’s the cop-out that no one likes to hear. I consider how the exact same situation turned out in my own family, and I’m very happy with the results.

To I_A_:
“Waiting in line in the JoP’s office…”
That was a very beautiful portrait you’ve painted I’m not certain how civil ceremonies are done in your country, but I what you’ve described certainly isn’t the option we would choose. Try picturing a garden wedding, with nature all-around and God in everything.

To everyone:
I’ve learned tons and if you’re enjoying this discussion as much as I am, please respond.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

To ThyKingdomCome:
“So imagine yourself in this scenario…”
Earlier in this post I mentioned that I have a younger sister. She’s asked me many of the same questions. The part of your post that has struck me most is when you said:
“you listen while he teaches her about the real presence in the Eucharist and he teaches her that it’s not ok to believe otherwise” My boyfriend and I both believe is IS ok to believe otherwise. I think this is paramount to this discussion, because it eliminates the notion of one parent being pitted against the other. I assure you that I experience no discomfort in speaking honestly about my religious beliefs.

Ok. I probably didn’t word that highlighted part as well as I could have. But the fact is that the Church teaches that what we receive at communion is in fact the body and blood of Jesus, literally. The Church doesn’t say “Catholics are free to believe this or not to believe it.” Belief in the main doctrines of the Church is required of Catholics. So if a Catholic is going to raise his child Catholic, he can’t tell the child “well that’s my belief, but if you don’t want to you don’t have to believe it.” That’s what I meant when I said he would have to teacher her it’s not ok to believe otherwise. He probably wouldn’t say those words, but if his daughter came to him indicating that she didn’t believe in the real presence, as the person entrusted with imparting the faith on her, he would do what he could to convince her otherwise.

So say you’re not uncomfortable telling your daughter exactly what you believe on the subject (I’m assuming for arguments sake that you don’t believe in the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence). Then what happens is she has two parents telling her two mutually exclusive things. Either communion is really Jesus, or it is not. Either Salvation comes through the Church alone or it doesn’t. These are not grey-area statements. So for you and your future dh to agree to both tell her what you believe, you’ll have two things happen:

1-she will very likely be confused about the answers to the questions she is asking. She won’t be getting a clear message about some very black and white questions. Perhaps from the Standpoint of an Agnostic, that is ok, after all, agnostics tend to be questioning, and don’t have black and white answers (right? otherwise you’d fit in more definitely with another religion?). But from the Catholic viewpoint (and remember, your Catholic husband would be obligated to do everything in his power to raise her Catholic), this goes against the very essence of Catholicism. In Catholicism, there is ONE TRUTH, and it is not a grey, maybe truth. It is TRUTH. So in your adjustment of the scenario I started, it turns out that your hypothetical daughter is not actually being raised as much of a Catholic, but rather as an agnostic. Again, maybe not problematic for you, but consider your husband’s obligation.

2-You and your husband would be telling your daughter very contraditing things. I tell you what, if someone continually told my children things about God and my religion that led them away from the faith I was trying to teach them, I’d be extremely unhappy. While your boyfriend may seem nonchalant about that now, it is entirely possible (preferable in fact) that he will feel stronger about this faith that he practices in the future and when he has children. So it is a strong possibility that you and he won’t be able to peacefully teach your children “both sides of the coin.” You will be competing against each other for the faith of your children. That is not only bad for children, but it isn’t good for a marriage either.

I’m not saying mixed-religion marriages can’t work. And frankly, many of us are speaking as though we know that your boyfriend is serious about his faith. In reality, committing to going to Mass on Sunday is not a guarantee that you truly believe and follow what your church teaches. Perhaps he has some agnostic tendencies, and perhaps you are not really that far away from each other on the spectrum of belief. If that is the case, he could benefit from learning more about his faith as well.

Hey, does he come here? If not, send him over. You both might be able to learn alot about the Church from this forum. And I don’t mean to be condescending with that remark. I was raised Catholic in the 70’s and 80’s, and learned very little about my faith until I sought it on my own in my 20’s. You may be a decade behind me (guessing?), but let’s face it, religious education in the Catholic Church has been absolutely atrocious in the last 40 years. I pretty much assume that most “Cradle Catholics” younger than 50 are terribly uneducated in their faith. Learning about the Catholic Faith is really something that today’s young adults have to do all over again on their own. So invite your bf over here!

Oh and, gee, when I was getting engaged to my dh, I would never have been willing to let so many people weigh in on my future. Good for you for being so thoughtful about this decision, and open minded enough to at least listen to what we are saying, even if you don’t end up agreeing with us.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

To Feanaro’s Wife:
Maybe he is a “pick and choose” type of Catholic?”
Yes, you’re correct. See above.

Ah ha, it is all becoming clearer! thanks for helping us see how things really are instead of just giving up. We were coming from the perspective that your boyfriend followed his faith 100% so we gave responses that went along with that.

“It’s hard to elaborate when it seems you are not open to any other view points. You are coming at this argument already set to prove that you are right instead of being open. A good argument is one where truth is sought above all else, no matter who’s ego gets hurt”
I’m not going to lie, my boyfriend and I were both very shocked by the type of response we were getting to my question. I will try my best to be open to other views, but (as I hope I’ve illustrated in this post so far) it’s difficult when people are referring to aspects of Catholicism that do not apply to my personal situation, because they conflict with my boyfriend’s interpretation of Catholicism. In short, I’ll try to put my ego on the shelf.
**
I am glad we can continue in the discussion! Maybe we will all come out of this with more knowledge than we previously had:thumbsup:**

“I am not dismissive and I am sorry if I came across that way. Honestly I care about what happens to BOTH of you.”
Thank you, I appreciate that. I’m sorry I called you dismissive. Friends again?

Of course

To 1ke:
“…you stated you “pretty much” agreed in the area of the Ten Commandments. Well, this is a HUGE issue in marriage.”
Sorry, I was unclear. We both agree on the content of the Ten Commandments, we just don’t always follow them 100% of the time. Everyone’s human, and slips happen.

But there is a difference between slips and not following them. We are all human and slips happen. But do you both agree with the ten commandments and try to follow them at all times?

To I_A_:
“Waiting in line in the JoP’s office…”
That was a very beautiful portrait you’ve painted I’m not certain how civil ceremonies are done in your country, but I what you’ve described certainly isn’t the option we would choose. Try picturing a garden wedding, with nature all-around and God in everything.
**
I knew what you meant when you wanted a JOP wedding. Sure, they can be beautiful and sentimental. I honestly don’t know what the best solution for you both is. Your bf professes to be Catholic so really should get married in the Church. You are a non-practicing Catholic so really should as well. But I don’t know where to make the distinction between doing that for the health of your souls and just going through the motions and essentially mocking the faith. maybe you guys should both atttend RCIA (yes, it can be for Catholics too…information never harmed anyone) and revert back to the faith and then get married. ha, problem solved**

To everyone:
I’ve learned tons and if you’re enjoying this discussion as much as I am, please respond.

I hope you respond to my last post soon as I’d love to continue this discussion!

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Ahh… the more we probe (ouch! We know it hurts. Sorry )
the more we get answers.

Now, WE believe IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

Jesus was the WORD. The Truth Himself. And words, if they don’t correspond with the Truth are deficient. Words have specific meaning. And when you ignore their true meaning, you have no communication. I hope you are not as lax with scientific terms as you are with other terms. Do you mean the same thing when you discuss “gravity” as other scientists? If you don’t, you’re going to have problems.

We see that here. You used a word that has a specific meaning to us. “Devout.” Now you are changing that. He isn’t devout. He picks and chooses reality too. let’s clarify further. You are not an agnostic. You are a “do-it-yourself religion.” You are your own Pope, your own God, your own church. You decide for yourself what is right and wrong. And that has morphed and changed over the years. It follows your feelings and your experiences and is not built upon the same solid Rock, as say, the Catholic Church is built upon. We get that. It’s not that you don’t believe in a God, but for all intents and purposes, you are your own deity deciding what is right and wrong for you. So far, it has worked for you. (How old are you??)

And now I can see that in some respects, your BF is his own Pope, picking and choosing what he FEELS is right and wrong and living according to the rules of his own private “church.” In that sense, I see you two are more compatible than I initially thought. And in that respect, if his parents are okay with that, then maybe they won’t mind the shifting soup of theology you will be feeding to their grandchildren. (To use your metaphor.)

I was predicating my comments before on the belief that your use of the word “devout” was accurate and deliberate.

Now, I do ask that you consider as you pick and choose your own theological reality to consider what your life as scientists would be if you were so quick to pick and choose what realities of the natural order you found convenient or not and chose to believe or not. I mean, you don’t like waiting for water to boil, so do you decide for yourself what the new boiling point of water is? (No, don’t talk about adding substances to change boiling points, because then we are not talking about water anymore.) Would you trust an experiment where the scientist had decided for himself what the force of gravity was, or what the melting point for a metal was, or what the outcome of adding two combustible substances SHOULD BE in their own preference?

Just be aware that when people decide to pick and choose for themselves what morality is and try to live according to that, it is as chaotic, prone to error and messy in the end as when people pick and choose or use words wrongly in a conversation or a messageboard thread.

If he likes to pick and choose what is allowed in a Catholic Church, and if he is picking and choosing what marriage to you means, then it really doesn’t matter whether you have your wedding in a church building or on a seashore, because if his intent is not according to the Catholic Church’s meaning of marriage, you marriage might not be valid anyway. Save this thread, print it out. And someday if it all crashes and burns, this printout would be very helpful to a tribunal to give him his annulment papers. He can claim “lack of due discretion” and he can have your words to prove your mental bent as you prepared for “marriage.”

I know that sounds harsh, but I’m really glad that I kept my letters from my ex from before the marriage. It helped me get my annulment.

Yes, it’s that serious. I’m not going to sugarcoat things. Marriage is not to be entered into lightly. Because eventually the lives and souls and emotions of children are involved.

You came here asking the Catholic viewpoint. We gave it to you. I’m deeply sorry if we didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear. Good luck in your discernment process. And make sure when you talk to your BF, that you are both using words with the same meaning.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I’m not going to lie, my boyfriend and I were both very shocked by the type of response we were getting to my question.

There is Catholicism the way it is “supposed” to be practiced, and there is the Catholicism the way it is actually practiced by 99.9% of Catholics. For information on the former, read Catholicism for Dummies. For information on the latter, read The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Catholicism.

For this reason, we’ll no longer think of him as devout or practicing, but rather, as a Cafeteria Catholic, or a Pick-and-Choose Catholic.

Just FYI, there are many threads on this site started by people who were so-called cafeteria Catholics when they married, but later had a conversion to a more hard-core version of Catholicism, and as a result are having major difficulties in their marriages.

One of my biggest reservations about being married in the Catholic Church is that I’m very much opposed to being something that I’m not. Pretending to be a believer, (in essence, lying to everyone and myself) on one of the most important days of my life is certainly something I’m not happy with. If I can be married in the Catholic Church without being untrue to myself, this is certainly an attractive option for both myself and my boyfriend.

There is an option that might add to your peace of mind in terms of not wanting to be seen pretending to be a Catholic. It is called defecting from the Catholic faith by a formal act (see here), although it will not change anything as regards your wedding options because your boyfriend is still Catholic.

 

[ABello]

Hi again!

To ThyKingdomCome:
“The Church doesn’t say “Catholics are free to believe this or not to believe it.” Belief in the main doctrines of the Church is required of Catholics…”
Interesting post. Two parents with radically different beliefs pulling a child in two different directions leaves you with…two half children, and a divided family. We both agree that this is certainly not desirable. The situation you’ve described would lead to this outcome. Now, here is why in my particular situation, with my particular boyfriend, this will not happen. We’re both OK with choice. We both understand that the Catholic faith is not too keen on this notion, but we are. So put simply, yes, we think it’s OK to say: “well that’s my belief, but if you don’t want to you don’t have to believe it.” The important added note to include here is to point out that in the Catholic faith, in its strictest sense (or for many people, its ONLY sense), it is NOT ok to believe “otherwise” on these important points.

“You and your husband would be telling your daughter very contradicting things.”
I don’t see this as being a problem, I see it as being an opportunity. I’ll consider my younger sister once again, who, although given multiple possibilities for what truth is, still chose the Catholic faith. Good for her! I know my kids will be just as strong, whether they end up as Catholics, agnostics, or anything in between.

“Hey, does he come here? If not, send him over. You both might be able to learn alot about the Church from this forum.”
He sure does! He’s been following this thread and although he hasn’t been posting on his own, he’s helped me with all my posts, mostly so I can rest assured that I’m portraying him in an accurate light. And yes, we’ve both learned a ton in a very short period of time, and we don’t intend to stop anytime soon.

“Good for you for being so thoughtful about this decision, and open minded enough to at least listen to what we are saying, even if you don’t end up agreeing with us.”
That statement is more appreciated than you’ll ever know. It’s mighty hard to argue against some of the statements that have been made to the tune of: “You’re young and you just have no idea.” I know we’re young, but we love the back and forth information we’ve been getting here. A lot of the stuff may have not been directly applicable, but it’s forced us to look hard into things and keep the dialogue going, which I feel is very important.

To Feanaro’s Wife:
“But do you both agree with the ten commandments and try to follow them at all times?”
Yes, we interpret them the same way, and strive to follow them at all times.

“But I don’t know where to make the distinction between doing that for the health of your souls and just going through the motions and essentially mocking the faith.”
I really think this is an important thing for us to figure out. I don’t intend to “mock the faith” so if we do decide on a church wedding, I want to ensure that it can be done in a way that is respectful to both of us and our beliefs.

“I hope you respond to my last post soon as I’d love to continue this discussion!”
I’m certainly working on it, but it might take me some time, as I’d like to choose my words carefully.

To Liberanosamalo:
Oh where to start. You’ve given me quite the platter here. First off, I’ll say that I found your tone to have a bit of anger in there. I’m hoping that was a momentary lapse for you, and you really don’t have this much distain for me and my religious beliefs.

“Devout.”
I am SO sorry. I meant no disrespect, and this was a clear mistake. I had no intention to mislead anyone, and I attempted to correct my mistake as soon as I could. I’ll readily admit that I’m not as well versed in the “religious language,” so to speak, as others on this forum. Please understand that this was an honest error. I only hope that you can see that and stop being so snarky (“Do you mean the same thing when you discuss “gravity” as other scientists?”)

“You are not an agnostic. You are a "do-it-yourself religion.”
I mentioned fairly early on my reservations surrounding my use of the word agnostic. I regret that I was not clear enough for you to understand. Following this post I intend to post a reply to “Feanaro’s Wife” regarding more details about my faith. Please read it so you can better understand me before you pass judgment. Save your nails and 2-by-4’s until then.

“How old are you??”
21. You?

“Just be aware that when people decide to pick and choose for themselves what morality is and try to live according to that, it is as chaotic, prone to error and messy in the end as when people pick and choose or use words wrongly in a conversation or a messageboard thread.”
To everyone: does anyone else feel this way? I’d love to know if my errors have offended everyone else as gravely as I seem to have offended Liberanosamalo.

“I know that sounds harsh, but I’m really glad that I kept my letters from my ex from before the marriage. It helped me get my annulment.”
I’m sorry things didn’t work out for you. However, I’m beginning to believe that your negative outlook on…well…everything I’ve seen so far, may have played a part. I don’t wish to come across as naïve. Please don’t think I don’t understand that sometimes the bumps along the way can be awful. But please also understand that there’s a lot of good in there too. The only way to make more good out of life, and keep your life happy and positive is to, well…be a happy and positive person. I think perhaps you have just as much to learn from me as I have to learn from you, if you’ll just let it happen.

“You came here asking the Catholic viewpoint. We gave it to you. I’m deeply sorry if we didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.”
Yes, that’s what I came here for, and yes, that’s what you gave me. I understand what I found is not what I expected, but it’s still been rewarding. If I got what I “wanted to hear” that would have been pretty boring.

 

[1ke]

So your boyfriend isn’t actually a devout, practicing Catholic but rather yet another person who has sadly embraced the idea of religious indifferentism, secular values, and thinks he can “pick and choose” when it comes to faith.

How sad.

 

[ABello]

Thank you, Just_Lurking.

“Just FYI, there are many threads on this site started by people who were so-called cafeteria Catholics when they married, but later had a conversion to a more hard-core version of Catholicism, and as a result are having major difficulties in their marriages.”
I’m sure that’s a very difficult situation to be in. However, when I look to even the most extremely Catholic members of our family and community, I don’t see anything that is “so Catholic” that it would pose a problem between us.

“It is called defecting from the Catholic faith by a formal act”
Thank you for the link. I’ll be sure to study it further.

 

[ABello]

To 1ke:
You don’t seem the least bit accepting of other people’s personal religious beliefs. Your arrogance is hurtful. Do you feel superior to me? To my boyfriend? I’ll bet that pedestal you’re on feels high and mighty. Careful you don’t fall.

 

[1ke]

There is Catholicism the way it is “supposed” to be practiced, and there is the Catholicism the way it is actually practiced by 99.9% of Catholics.

You are really very insulting to the millions of Catholics striving to live holy lives-- yes, millions and millions not 0.1%-- although you probably don’t realize it (or worse, maybe you do).

You seem to think that NO Catholics actually **believe **what the Church teaches **because it’s TRUE **and that fewer follow Church teaching. Well, you are just plain WRONG.

I don’t know where you live or who you hang out with but you have chosen pretty poorly. Speak only for yourself, not the millions of Catholics who love Jesus and embrace everything He taught and his Church founded on Peter.

 

[1ke]

To 1ke:
You don’t seem the least bit accepting of other people’s personal religious beliefs.

There’s only one Truth. I accept that not all believe it.

Since your boyfriend says he is a Catholic, it’s disheartening to find out he disregards the Church’s teaching. In my book that’s called a hypocrite. At least I’m honest. I believe and I practice that belief.

Your arrogance is hurtful. Do you feel superior to me?

No, I don’t feel “superior” to you. I feel sorry for you. I’m also older than you and I’ve seen more than you so I suppose that your naivete is rather tiresome to me.

I’ve seen a lot of posts like yours too. They go like this:

• Non Catholic comes on Catholic board to get “answers”.
• Non Catholic doesn’t like the answers.
• Non Catholic spends copious amounts of energy trying to “explain” thinking that will change the answers.
• Non Catholic keeps getting same answers.
• Non Catholic tells us we’re all “arrogant”, “narrowminded,” “intolerant”, etc, (pick your pejorative term) and leaves.

To my boyfriend?

Nope. Just disappointed and saddened.

I’ll bet that pedestal you’re on feels high and mighty. Careful you don’t fall.

No one is closer to the ground looking up than me.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

To Feanaro’s Wife:

“I hope you respond to my last post soon as I’d love to continue this discussion!”
I’m certainly working on it, but it might take me some time, as I’d like to choose my words carefully.

**
I don’t mind waiting. I’m enjoying the discussion. I only wish that I had had these types of discussions before I was married.

And I really want to comment on one other thing. You seem so sure that your boyfriend will never change. Well, people change. I bet even you will change.

So it would probably be pretty educational for you to look up some threads where two people married thinking that religion wasn’t that big of a deal only to have it become one…usually once kids come along. I can’t say this will happen to you. But I can certainly say it is a possibility. And if something CAN happen I think it is wise to at least prepare yourself.**

 

[ABello]

To 1ke:

It’s clear to me that we’re not going to see eye to eye on this one. You’re the only person on this thread so far, except one, that I feel is anything close to arrogant. Please don’t lump the rest of these folks in with you, they seem to be much more open individuals.

“I’m also older than you and I’ve seen more than you so I suppose that your naivete is rather tiresome to me.”
Trust me, the whole “I’m older than you and I know more about life” thing is equally as tiresome. Grow up.

 

[1ke]

Trust me, the whole “I’m older than you and I know more about life” thing is equally as tiresome. Grow up.

Just wait, the worst is yet to come. The worst part is that when you actually do get older, you find out those annoying people were right.

So, basically, I’ve already given you the canon law that applies to the question you asked:

Catholics must marry in the Catholic form of marriage unless they receive a dispensation from the Bishop and Catholics may not have another ceremony before or after.

So, there you go. If you and your boyfriend are determined, then you do have the basic knowledge to work from regarding marriage requirements of the Catholic Church. The next step would be to discuss details with a priest.

Regardless of whether a dispensation is granted to marry outside the Catholic form, you will need to attend marriage preparation, which will take about 6 months but the details of which vary from diocese to diocese.