Marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Agnostic

[Just_wondering]

I kind of understand what Bluemoon is saying. If you have doubts about your faith (and I’m not saying you do) it’s better to act as if you didn’t have doubts, and hope that faith will follow, than to give up on faith completely. It’s not living a lie, it’s just living what you hope to believe. Someone explained it before as being similar to when you’re trying to become successful - if you want to become successful, you have to act successful, even before you become so. It’s not living a lie to act successful when you’re not, because you are consciously trying to change your state of being by your actions. I’m not sure how much Bluemoon’s comment applies to you, though.

I’ve been following this thread for several pages - I’m in the same position as you, in some ways. I came onto this site eight months ago as a non-Catholic woman dating a Catholic man. Like you, I was born and baptized Catholic and then I was never raised with a faith. For me, I have no problem getting married in the church and letting the children be raised Catholic. That got me thinking about how if I didn’t mind if my children were Catholic, why would I object to becoming so myself? I’m investigating the faith now - slowly and cautiously. I agree with the rules, but I’m not sure I believe in some things yet. I’m just going to take it slowly and see where all this leads. My boyfriend and I aren’t getting married for about a year or two, so I’ve got time to figure all this out.

Good luck to you and your boyfriend! I’m enjoying this thread. This has been a very positive and open exchange of ideas so far.

 

[Just_wondering]

**Once I started investigating what the faith is really all about (my hubby is Catholic and I just wanted to learn about what he believed and why…I never had any intention of converting!) I was overcome by the truthfullness and sheer logic of it. No matter what I had an issue with I could find a very clear answer if I knew where to look. These forums were very helpful as well

I didn’t choose Catholicism to make my life/marriage easier. I didn’t choose it to please my extended family. I didn’t choose it to gain a sense of belonging. I prayed sincerely that the Holy Spirit open my heart and mind to whatever the truth was (even though at that point I wasn’t sure there even was a Holy Spirit:shrug. Then things just started to make sense. Information basically fell into my lap. I could no longer ignore the calling.

CAF was one of my first steps…maybe it is yours too?
**

I have to laugh, Malia - maybe it’ll be me posting that in five years. Your story sounds a lot like mine. Yes, CAF was one of my first steps, too!

 

[JadensMom]

His religion isn’t like a skin colour or foreign accent, though. It’s something that’s going to affect your life, every single day of your life, from Matins at 6:00 am right through until Rosary at 8:00 pm.

I don’t know ANYBODY who gets up for Matins at 6:00 a.m. and who says an 8 o’clock rosary every evening who isn’t a cloistered monk, and I’m pretty sure this young lady isn’t marrying a monk!

Just so you know, Abello, any time someone posts about mixed marriage on this forum, they get a whole chorus of “Don’t marry outside the faith!” naysayers. Do a search on “mixed marriage” and that’s exactly what you’ll find.

 

[jmcrae]

How I feel about God:
I don’t know if God exists. If He does exist, I don’t know what capacity he exists in. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think about it, and ask questions. I love thinking about God, the universe, and all the great stuff in and around it. Lately, I’ve also become interested in what other religions think about God. Good thing I found you guys!

If there is a God, then He exists in the capacity of God. (Kind of like, if there is a President of the United States, then he is the President of the United States.)

The word “God” signifies an uncreated being, who is the source of all that has been created. Now, we can wonder about the details - is He conscious, or is the god just a blind, random force like the Big Bang? If He is conscious, does He love us, or are we just background scenery for something that is more important to Him? Why did He create us?

Lastly, here’s a poem that’s very important to me. Maybe some of you have read it. If you haven’t, take a look if you have a chance:
desiderata.com/

I had that on my wall when I was a kid, too, many decades ago now. It contains a lot of good wisdom. (I think it was originally written by a Catholic monk.)

 

[jmcrae]

Just so you know, Abello, any time someone posts about mixed marriage on this forum, they get a whole chorus of “Don’t marry outside the faith!” naysayers. Do a search on “mixed marriage” and that’s exactly what you’ll find.

I am in a mixed marriage owing to the fact that I became Catholic, and he did not. (We were of the same religion at the time of our wedding.)

Believe me, life is a lot more complicated now, than it was before - and this is with me knowing what he is thinking, and why.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I have to laugh, Malia - maybe it’ll be me posting that in five years. Your story sounds a lot like mine. Yes, CAF was one of my first steps, too!

That thought often crosses my mind when I see some of your posts

If you ever want to chat about my journey into the faith feel free to PM me… I never mind talking about the best thing to happen to me

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Don’t know if this has been addressed already, but have you and your boyfriend agreed that should you get married, your children will be raised Catholic?

 

[ALLGIRLS]

ABello,

Hi. I just finished reading through this entire (very long ) thread. And, granted, this is just my opinion, (that and $5 will get you a gallon of gas), but here goes:

Has your boyfriend (since he’s been keeping up w/ this thread w/ you) ever seriously thought about and reflected what he really believes, and how that compares w/ what the Catholic Church actually teaches? You said that the two of you have similar beliefs & values, and from what you’ve described it certainly seems that way. It helped that you clarified his beliefs from being “devout”, to “practicing”, to finally “cafeteria”. A couple of things that concerned me was your statement that he “finds peace” in the Mass, and finds the “story” of Christ “meaningful”. Perhaps he finds peace in the Mass because he was raised Catholic and that’s what’s familiar and comfortable to him? And, as someone else mentioned, Muslims, Buddhist, even agnostics can find the story of Christ meaningful. Does he believe Christ is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, True God and True Man, Who was born of a virgin (an actual, physical virgin, not just a young unmarried woman), died &rose from the dead for our Eternal Salvation? That’s the basic essence of Christianity (and Catholicism delves much deeper than even that, as you’ve found!). Does your boyfriend believe that (and btw, one can believe that, w/ all their being, and believe that all other religions are false or deficient, while still respecting other people’s rights to believe in and practice those religions. The Catholic Church teaches freedom of religion, we don’t believe in forcing anyone to be Catholic and that it’s up to God, not us, as to who gets to heaven, but we do believe that the fullness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church)? If so, yes, he’s a Catholic, and you should continue exploring what entering a mixed marriage will mean. If he doesn’t, then perhaps the two of you should (and this is just my opinion, gleaned from your posts about his and your beliefs) look into a Unitarian/Universalist congregation. It may take some getting used to, and he may miss the Mass (it is peaceful and beautiful!) for awhile, but I think that would be the more intellectually and spiritually honest way to go (the way you decided to stop attending Mass w/ him).

Like I said, that’s just my opinion, gleaned from several of your posts. If I’m way off base, I apologize. Good luck to you both!

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[BLUEMOON74]

Hi Bluemoon74. Welcome to the discussion:

“Better to believe in something that is not real”

This didn’t quite sit right with me. I’m not certain that I understand you properly, so please correct me if I’m wrong. It seems a little like you’re advocating bet hedging your salvation. By this logic, I should pick up every organized religion and add it to my roster. One of them’s bound to be the one! This way, I’ll guarantee salvation, and it doesn’t matter that they can’t all be 100% right. Am I following correctly?

Anyone else? Thoughts?

No, no, I just did not want to overwhelm you with Catholic doctrine, theology, and rhetoric. I am confident you have heard it all before; so why insult your intelligence. My point was to keep it short and sweet with you and just tell you that whatever you choose whether it’s to believe in something as opposed to nothing, or if you actually chose a religion even if it’s not Catholic, when you put God at the forefront of your decisions, things have a way of working out. It’s just Christian logic I am giving you. I dont mean for you to go crazy or add every organized religion to your roster. You have to find God first, to decide on a religion. You may not want to be any religion. Just keep the Holy Spirit in your mind, as I can see that you are, or you would not be here. If it leads you to Catholicism then great-- welcome, if not, thats ok too at least you are recongnizing there is a God and that is better than nothing. My dad used to say that he wasnt worried about people that weren’t sure if God exists or the if Bible is true or a man-made concoction, dad said they just havent found Him yet. That’s all I am saying. Good luck with it all, and I sincerely mean that. No cheesy I’ll pray for you ****, just give Him a chance…more than once in your life…more than ten times.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

No cheesy I’ll pray for you ****, just give Him a chance…

** Praying for someone is never “cheesy ****” no matter what the recipient of the intentions think. She could very well think it’s just cheesy lip service but that doesn’t change the power that prayer has. So, whether you do or not, I will certainly be praying for the OP and her boyfriend that they find their way…

I just have to add that the more I think about it the more disrespectful it sounds. And I bet the OP wouldn’t think it would be cheesy for you to offer to pray for her…she sounds much more open minded than that. If I had a Buddhist friend wish that I become reincarnated as a higher being (can you tell I’m just making this up?) I would appreciate the thought. I don’t have to believe in something to believe that other people may want to help me.
**

 

[BLUEMOON74]

** Praying for someone is never “cheesy ****” no matter what the recipient of the intentions think. She could very well think it’s just cheesy lip service but that doesn’t change the power that prayer has. So, whether you do or not, I will certainly be praying for the OP and her boyfriend that they find their way…

I just have to add that the more I think about it the more disrespectful it sounds. And I bet the OP wouldn’t think it would be cheesy for you to offer to pray for her…she sounds much more open minded than that. If I had a Buddhist friend wish that I become reincarnated as a higher being (can you tell I’m just making this up?) I would appreciate the thought. I don’t have to believe in something to believe that other people may want to help me.
**

No disrespect meant, you may be surprised to find that a lot of people really hate that saying. Check the recent posts. They take it as a sarcastic, you need help loser so I’ll pray for you cliche. I pray for a lot of people and myself included. I understand your point. I am a very open-minded person that can usually see other peoples view points. That was my point to her. The original post was about her future marriage, but she also addressed being agnostic and not being 100% sure if God even exists; so I addressed that. You know when someone is pondering the truth the last thing they want to be told is something like that or Bible beaten. Those are the types of things that make a person run when they are struggling with faith bc they’ve heard it all before, have the T-shirt, they are searching for a reason to believe, not a lecture. I just told her to keep her heart open and give it another shot. Ultimatley its her choice, she is going to believe what she wants to believe. You know when I hold the door open for my dog he stares at me confused, when I tell him well its real hot outside and walk away he comes running inside. You get my point? Sometimes its better to guide them in the right direction and let them pick their own path, then pray for them in private to make the right choice, not make a proclamation of prayer for a gold star or a cookie and embarriss them with your good intentions.

 

[ABello]

Hi Feanaro’s Wife.

Just above Toronto, born and raised! Looks like we’re a lot more similar than anyone could’ve thought. Just as an aside, I’d like you to know that you talk (or rather, type) with a very non-judgmental quality about you, and I really appreciate that.

“I didn’t choose Catholicism to make my life/marriage easier. I didn’t choose it to please my extended family. I didn’t choose it to gain a sense of belonging.”
I’m glad to hear this. Those certainly would not have been very sound reasons.

“If I have any advise for you it is to not rush into marriage…”
I agree. I’m still at least a few years away from marriage. I know I’m still young, and I know, that within certain parameters, people can certainly change.

“Becoming Catholic has only added to my “me-ness”.”
Another thing I’m glad to hear. Who knows, maybe sometime down the road I’ll end up standing where you stand now; seems you’ve already stood where I do. It’s hard for me to say that quite yet. I’m not closed to possibilities, but considering myself as a full-blown Catholic in the future seems miles away to me, because I’m currently comfortable with my faith. I’d imagine if you ask anyone on the forum if they see themselves as a Muslim or Jew anytime soon, it would feel just as distant to them.

To Just wondering:
It’s comforting to know you’re in a bit of the same boat. Your explanation of what Bluemoon has said now makes more sense to me.

To Jaden(name removed by moderator):
You’ve given me quite a chuckle. Are you sure you’re in the right place? How do I put this…your post stuck out a little from the other members

To Miles Mariae:
“Don’t know if this has been addressed already, but have you and your boyfriend agreed that should you get married, your children will be raised Catholic?”
The answer isn’t quite a simple “yes” or “no.” I’ve posted a little bit about this earlier and you can take a look if you’d like, but in general, our children would be raised as Catholics who are permitted to question and decide for themselves what to believe.

To AllGirls:
I’d love to answer all your (very good) questions, but this will have to wait until I can discuss this with him or he can write his own reply (likely tomorrow). I desperately want to avoid misrepresenting him.

To Bluemoon 74 and Feanaro’s Wife (again!):
Since you were both lightly discussing the notion of praying for a non-believer, I decided I’d throw my two cents in. Here’s how I view prayer: you can pray for me or not pray for me, and in actual fact, it doesn’t make a difference to me in terms of outcome, or net result. BUT, I recognize that prayer is very important to people and is a very “real” force. Malia, in that respect, I think your Buddhist analogy was correct: you may not believe in reincarnation, but having someone involve you in something that it so important to them is in a way, an honour.
On the flipside, Bluemoon74, I appreciate that your intention was good. I agree with you somewhat, in that the phrase “I’ll pray for you” can be misinterpreted and sound almost condescending at times.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I agree with you somewhat, in that the phrase “I’ll pray for you” can be misinterpreted and sound almost condescending at times.

**
Of course it can. But so can anything. Ever see “have a nice day” misused? Doesn’t mean people who really want to wish you a good day should not do it in case their intentions are questioned I know you already understand this, I’m not arguing…just expounding on my original thought (I hope you don’t mind).

I am going to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow after I’ve had some sleep! Have a good night (meant with all sincerity of course!)

**BLUEMOON74: **When I was in the OP’s type of situation I tended to view the “I’ll pray for you” comments as hollow and insincere…especially in a debate type of thread. But NOW I appreciate them. So even though I was interpreting them wrongly doesn’t mean they aren’t important to me now. And they very well could have had a hand in my eventual conversion:thumbsup:
**

 

[BLUEMOON74]

**
Of course it can. But so can anything. Ever see “have a nice day” misused? Doesn’t mean people who really want to wish you a good day should not do it in case their intentions are questioned I know you already understand this, I’m not arguing…just expounding on my original thought (I hope you don’t mind).

I am going to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow after I’ve had some sleep! Have a good night (meant with all sincerity of course!)

**BLUEMOON74: **When I was in the OP’s type of situation I tended to view the “I’ll pray for you” comments as hollow and insincere…especially in a debate type of thread. But NOW I appreciate them. So even though I was interpreting them wrongly doesn’t mean they aren’t important to me now. And they very well could have had a hand in my eventual conversion:thumbsup:
**

Totally understand, totally agree. I always appreciate prayers, but I didnt want to take it for granted that she would feel the same way.

 

[chevalier]

To chevalier:
Thank you for your post. You’re quite sweet.

Thank you.

I like this question….but certainly not because I think it’s easy! I think every child should have a certain degree of choice, but it should be tailored to their age and abilities. What I’m saying is that by slowly allowing our children to think for themselves, we’re teaching them to be self-sufficient adults. Please understand that I DON’T mean we should throw them into the Catholicism-Agnostic pool of confusion and see if they can swim. What my boyfriend and I would both like is for our children to be raised with strong morals and values, and to understand the important message that the story of Christ holds. As they age and become more inquisitive, we can answer their questions appropriately.

But what with baptism and other sacraments then? What with early religious education?

Once they’re older, they can decide if the story of Christ is more metaphorical or literal, or if they’d rather adopt a whole new belief system all together. I find that a lot of people have expressed concern over “confusing” the children. Children will only be confused if you allow their religious upbringing to be confusing. What I hope to get across here is that with careful parenting, I have no doubt that our children will be well-adjusted.

Still, as you cannot combine mutually exclusive beliefs, nor can you have children suspend their judgement, are they going to be Catholic with the option to become agnostic freely without opposition from the parents, or are they going to be brought up with knowledge of Christianity but not as Christians at such a point at which they can decide if they want to be Christian or not?

God’s there if you believe He is

It is only an idea which exists because I have it. A person’s existence is in no way affected by my perception and my will has no power to change reality.

**

To KCT and others:

There has been a fair amount of concern regarding what happens if he “changes his mind” about how “Catholic” he really is. Apparently many people have seen this.**

I have experienced it. I cannot judge my heart or mind, but my actions several years ago and my actions now are not on the same page. With relationships coming and going, my resolve to live the Catholic way has strengthened, not weakened. I made many mistakes and yet I decided not to make them again. I was taught by experience that deviating from the path does not lead to the proper destination.

But more of this later.

 

[chevalier]

Here is the reference for my statement, found in a Wikipedia article (see here):

Can. 87, §1

AAS, v. 77 (1985), p. 771

Diocesan bishop cannot dispense from canonical form for the marriage of two Catholics.

Ooops, seems so. My bad. Looks like the dispensation from form in mixed marriages may be given by local ordinaries, while in other cases there is no such power given. Wouldn’t have known if you hadn’t told me.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**OK, I don’t have much time because I’m off to do bath and bedtime for our 2 year old

But I just have to put this thought out there.

We have all focused so far on “what if your boyfriend changes/comes back to the faith fully?”. But I think it is equally possible that is is YOU who may change. You are a baptized Catholic and lots of them end up reverting to the Church sometime in this long life.

What if YOU become a 100% faithful devout Catholic and your then hubby does not? That can cause a lot of friction since he will see you as “superior” to him and like you think you’re better than he is. He may be entirely happy with his brand of faith right now but I can guarantee he wouldn’t like it if his previously “agnostic” (for lack of a better description) wife was suddenly more Catholic than he…

not to mention that if you had a reversion and embraced the Church with your entire heart and soul it would be hard to respect a husband who decided to pick and choose what suited him. Lots of posts on this board like that too…

Just something for you to ponder as I go do my mommy duties…be back later!!!**

 

[JadensMom]

To Jaden(name removed by moderator):
You’ve given me quite a chuckle. Are you sure you’re in the right place? How do I put this…your post stuck out a little from the other members

Thanks.

But I assure you, I’m a church-going cradle Catholic married to another cradle Catholic (my DH’s views are getting more and more agnostic these days, though.) We have a dear little son who’s getting ready to make his First Communion as well.

One thing I’ve noticed is that any time someone posts about mixed marriage on this board, is that a whole chorus of “Do not be unequally yoked!” all of a sudden springs up, as though a couple needs a perfect Vulcan-mind-meld of agreement regarding every aspect of religion in order to love each other. I think it’s not very welcoming to advise young couples of different religions to instantly break up over religious differences rather than help them to make their relationships work.

My husband’s pretty much agnostic these days, and we’re still happy as a couple of bugs in a little bug rug. (Love may not conquer all, but love, respect, and consideration do count for a lot!) He’s still just as excited about our little boy’s coming Sacrament as I am, and we don’t fight about raising the children Catholic at all.

 

[ABello]

To chevalier:
"But what with baptism and other sacraments then? What with early religious education?”

On early religious education: like Sunday school? Neither of us is a fan.

My boyfriend and I agree on baptism and confirmation. By the time confirmation comes along, children of this age can make their own decision. After all, that’s what confirmation means…making your own choice. For baptism, my boyfriend is highly for it, and I’m only mildly against it. That being said, knowing how much it would mean to my boyfriend to have our children baptized, this is a sacrifice I would be comfortable making. Baptism means a lot to him…for me, (and I KNOW you’re all not going to agree) …it’s really just another swimming pool.

Communion is a little bit of a sticky sacrament. It comes at an age where it’s a little debatable how much decision-making abilities children have (yes, they can choose peas vs. broccoli and what socks to wear…but can they choose to accept the body of Christ?) My boyfriend and I feel that we should gently encourage that our child accept communion at the usual age, but at any sign of doubt on the part of the child, best to postpone it. After all, religion isn’t a race, and there’s plenty of time to have a first communion later in life. We both feel that it’s OK to wait, and something like a first communion doesn’t have to be done whenever “everyone else” is doing it.

“…are they going to be Catholic with the option to become agnostic freely without opposition from the parents, or are they going to be brought up with knowledge of Christianity but not as Christians at such a point at which they can decide if they want to be Christian or not?”

They would be brought up with the teachings of the Catholic faith and with their sacraments, AND with the ability to question freely. Is that Catholic or Agnostic? I suppose you can label it as you choose.

To Feanaro’s Wife:
“What if YOU become a 100% faithful devout Catholic and your then hubby does not?”

First and foremost, I’d like to state that I think this is a very unlikely scenario, but we’ll play it through anyways. Let’s say I become a “devout” Catholic. I have some characteristics about myself and my faith…my “me-ness” as I’ve called it. These are things that my boyfriend admires about me, and always will, no matter which religion my strong convictions may lead me to. So let’s say I’m a fiery agnostic…if I was Catholic, then I’d just be a fiery Catholic. It’s not what I believe, it’s how I believe it.

There’s also an assumption that you’re making that’s gravely wrong – that there’s some kind of “heirarchy” of religion. Many people may feel there is one, but between Andrew and I, this isn’t the case. He doesn’t look down on me now as a “lesser Catholic,” and I don’t think he’d be looking up at me later on down the road as a “superior Catholic.” And yes, I know I can’t say for certain. I don’t have a crystal ball. I suppose one could look to “Jaden(name removed by moderator)” for how it can work…she seems pretty content with her husbands changes in faith.

Now, to Jaden(name removed by moderator):
First off, congrats on your son’s Communion. My little cousin will be making hers soon too.

“I think it’s not very welcoming to advise young couples of different religions to instantly break up over religious differences rather than help them to make their relationships work.”

I think you’ve summed up how I feel quite nicely. I don’t throw out broken things…I try to fix them, and I CERTAINLY don’t throw out things that aren’t even broken yet, but run the risk of breaking. For this reason, I’d like to do everything I can now to “reinforce” the relationship I have with my boyfriend, so we won’t break, and so I don’t end up having to chuck him in the trash!

 

[1ke]

By the time confirmation comes along, children of this age can make their own decision. After all, that’s what confirmation means…making your own choice.

Actually, that is not true at all. That is not the Catholic understanding of the Sacrament of Confirmation.