Marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Agnostic

[ABello]

I require some help regarding what the rules are when dealing with a marriage between a Catholic and an Agnostic.

Here are the details of my situation: I am Agnostic, but my boyfriend is a devout Roman Catholic. Lately we’ve been discussing marriage, but we’re unclear on how we can strike a compromise between our very different belief systems. What he wants, is to have a Catholic ceremony in a Catholic church. What I want, is not to have a Catholic ceremony, and not to be in a Catholic church.

Now, here’s the compromises we’re willing to make:

Option 1) We have a Catholic ceremony, outside of a church (say, at our reception venue or outside in a garden)

Option 2) We have two ceremonies. One Catholic ceremony, before our reception date, where we do NOT sign any legal papers, and therefore, are married in the eyes of the church but not the state. Then on the day of our reception, we would have a civil ceremony whereby we become legally married.

My primary issue is that I’m unsure what the Catholic church permits in terms of situations like this one. Can one have a Catholic ceremony outside of an actual church? Is having a religious ceremony without signing papers allowed?

If anyone could shed some light on this situation, I’d be very appreciative.

Much thanks,
-A

 

[Just_Lurking]

See here and here for information on more important questions.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

No, you cannot have a Catholic wedding outside of a church.

You are doing this backward. Some people, for legal reasons or job reasons (military needing to get tandem orders, etc.) have a civil ceremony and sign the paperwork. Then later have the priest bless it and convalidate it (This is presuming you do not cohabit as husband and wife till then.)

Your boyfriend will need to talk to his priest about it.

In this country we have a unique legal arrangement where the civil authorities respect the religious ceremony and priests are delegated authorities to legally witness a marriage.

My question is what kind of pre-marital counselling you have had because you cannot even agree on a ceremony. You seem very hostile to Catholicism. He is devout. And right now that is great because you’re “in love.” But what about when the children come. Love doesn’t conquer all when there are angry disagreements and a mother or father is refusing to have children baptized or educated as Catholics and the family is fractured and one spouse is taking children to Catholic Mass. It’s a disunity through the heart of the family.

Your belief systems are very different. And your wedding reception is the least of the things you will spend a lifetime trying to compromise on.

The Catholic Church will not allow him to compromise on certain things if he wants to live in peace with his conscience.

Good luck. Be sure you both are very clear on what you are trying to do here. It doesn’t often end well. Marriage is hard enough without entering it from two opposite belief systems.

 

[Rawb]

1. We have a Catholic ceremony, outside of a church (say, at our reception venue or outside in a garden

)

This technically possible, but highly unlikely. You’d have to apply for a dispensation from your Bishop, and these are rarely granted. The fact is marriage is a religious ceremony in the Catholic Church, it is a Sacrament, and Sacraments must take place in a suitably sacred space, which by default generally means a Church.

We have two ceremonies. One Catholic ceremony, before our reception date, where we do NOT sign any legal papers, and therefore, are married in the eyes of the church but not the state. Then on the day of our reception, we would have a civil ceremony whereby we become legally married

I don’t know about this, but I doubt it would be allowed because, barring extreme circumstances of unjust laws, legal and Sacramental marriage must coincide, if I recall correctly. Thus I don’t think you would be allowed to do this.

It is also worth noting that unless your Fiance’s marriage takes place in a Catholic ceremony, it is invalid form for him. A Catholic must abide by the laws of the Church, especially in reception of Sacraments. Have you thought about what will happen when he wants to have the children baptised? Confirmed? Enrolled in CCD? Wants to go to Mass on Sunday, Christmas, or Easter? If he’s not devout now what happens if he becomes so later? If he wants to give money to the Church?

 

[jmcrae]

If the wedding is this complicated, what are you going to do when it comes to deciding how many children to have, whether or not to have them baptized, where to send them to school, and whether to send them to Sacramental Preparation and CCD classes?

Other issues that are going to come up include the celebration of Christmas - whether to do so, in the first place, and how to do it, if you decide to do it. (Christmas is a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics; I am assuming that as an agnostic, you don’t normally celebrate it at all).

Ditto for Easter.

What I would suggest is sitting down with your beloved and have an open and honest talk about your expectations and his - lay out what assumptions you are making with regard to the day to day details of married life, and have him lay out his assumptions. Be as specific as possible. He might be assuming that “everyone” goes to Mass on Sundays, and has an 8:00 Rosary at home every evening - now would be the time to find out about this, and to make it clear what you assume you will be doing at those times, as well as at Easter time, Christmas time, and summer holidays.

 

[KCtheMommy]

You might want to reconsider the whole idea of getting married to a practicing Catholic. Trying to figure out where to have the marriage ceremony performed, and HOW, is only the first “compromise” in a very LONG LINE of compromises neither one of you are going to like, meaning having to compromise at all. Once children are involved, oh brother, brother, brother.

You might want to read a little bit more about our faith, the requirements of the faith for it’s members, and the Sacrament of Marriage. As an agnostic – is your view of marriage joining with the man you love, creating a partnership, a home, a family? For him, marrying is a SACRAMENT and that’s a big deal. Bigger than just “gettin’ hitched” as God calls us to marriage with the idea of procreating and propagating the faith. Onto that, how are you going to feel about your children being raised Catholic? It’s very hard to comprehend it before the children are even here. Some people (read both men and women) go into marriage with a Catholic making the promise to raise their children Catholic. Then they recant once the kids are here. That’s not fair to the Catholic partner, essentially it’s a broken promise, and a big promise at that. So if you can honestly say your children will be raised catholic, that YOU will not only allow it, but encourage it, by all means – go forth. If not, please reconsider.

I just want to say I appreciate you asking these questions, and forgive me for answering you in a manner of which you did not ask. Apparently you two have not discussed marriage plans with his priest or you would know some of the answers. Onto what you DID ask:

There are a BUNCH of rules regarding the Sacrament of Marriage, and it gets even more confusing with a mixed-faith marriage. Priests will NOT do a ceremony outside of the church as the Sacrament of Marriage is performed as a Mass. Meaning it is performed like a regular Mass (except there is a special Mass for Matrimony), the Host is Blessed, and attending Catholics receive the Eucharist.

You can have a dispensation granted to allow you to be married in a place other than the church, and that will have to be in place if your future husband wants to take communion after marrying you in a place other than the church. Otherwise you’ll have to have your marriage blessed in the church for him to continue to receive. (That’s asking a lot) Know that if you get the dispensation you will probably have to attend the marriage classes that the Catholic Church requires of all it’s members who are discerning marriage. These are good classes, and very helpful, also very introspective. They help determine readiness for the Sacrament of Matrimony.

As far as a civil ceremony – why? If you get married in the church it’s valid – no need for another ceremony. I can’t assume what a priest will say, but I am curious to know what the response to that might be.

I wish you the best. I hope you two can come to a very wise decision on what to do, and really, REALLY discern the future and the impact of these two different belief systems may have on each of you. I hope your boyfriend has a good understanding of what you believe (as in are you just a plain and simple agnostic, or are you more like a Universalist Unitarian? Do you think all Gods/Religions are nearly the same, etc?) and that you learn a bit more about our Faith. AGAIN: if you ask him to marry outside the church without a blessing, you are essentially asking him to give up a lot more than a simple “marriage blessing.”

I suggest you get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. Not that you are a “dummy” it’s just a really good, concise, simple yet super-informative book on our Faith. Kind of like “Cliff Notes!”

If you do wed, I hope you’ll come and update us on how you two worked it out. Good LUCK!

 

[KCT]

What he wants, is to have a Catholic ceremony in a Catholic church. What I want, is not to have a Catholic ceremony, and not to be in a Catholic church. -A

Beliefs are core . . . you’re against something important to him and he’s against something important to you.

Good luck.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

My question is the same as others,

In what faith are you going to raise your children???

I think you both need to figure that out before you start planning the wedding.

 

[ABello]

Wow. First off, thank you very much to everyone for your speedy replies. It may have been slightly overwhelming, but it’s certainly been informative and appreciated.

I just wanted to clear up a few things that I may have not been clear about in my first post, in the interest of being brief.

**To Liberanosamalo: **
“My question is what kind of pre-marital counselling you have had because you cannot even agree on a ceremony.”
We have not had marriage counseling because we are not yet engaged. We cannot yet agree on a ceremony because we’re not certain what our options are.

You seem very hostile to Catholicism.
As for your comment that I’m hostile to Catholicism, I really don’t know what it is I said that insinuated that, but I assure you that it’s far from the truth. I was baptized, had my communion, and was confirmed as a Catholic, and I’ve attended Catholic school for my entire life. My entire family and most of my friends are Catholics (even if they’re not all practicing) and I have the utmost respect for them.

**To KCtheMommy: **
Regarding what you’ve said about my views of marriage, I assure you that my boyfriend and I have the same views on what marriage means. Our morals, values, and beliefs are also very much in line– it’s the dogma that we seem to disagree on.

As far as a civil ceremony – why?
Regarding why I would like a civil ceremony, it’s difficult for me to explain properly, but I’ll try my best anyhow. I’ll try an analogy here: if you only speak French, would you feel comfortable if your wedding was done entirely in Spanish (your groom’s mother-tongue)? I think most people would try to strike a compromise here, with a blend of both languages in the ceremony. Alternatively, say, if you both speak English, perhaps an English ceremony would be a possibility. Ideally, that’s what I’d like to do with religions instead of languages. Somehow find a neutral ground for a ceremony (i.e. a civil ceremony) while still including my boyfriend’s “Spanish” (Catholic faith) And yes, I understand that a religion is much deeper than a language so my example isn’t perfect, but I hope that helps a little.

“I hope your boyfriend has a good understanding of what you believe (as in are you just a plain and simple agnostic, or are you more like a Universalist Unitarian? Do you think all Gods/Religions are nearly the same, etc?)”
I don’t typically associate myself with a particular “title,” but I assure you that my boyfriend understands all the intricacies of my beliefs.

“I suggest you get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies.”
I certainly will. That’s good advice, and I know no offence was intended J

To everyone:
I see there is particular concern regarding raising children. Please don’t think for one moment that I take this subject lightly. I believe that raising children is one of the most important thing that a person can do in their life, and I understand that we need to heavily discuss this issue beforehand. We’ve talked about it lightly, and luckily for us we agree on basics like parenting strategies, morals, and general beliefs. We’re both very level-headed and communicative persons so I don’t think we’ll be unable to reach ground that everyone is happy with. However, don’t be surprised if you see me on this forum sometime again to seek some more advice anyways.

And finally…
No, I will not reconsider marrying a practicing Catholic because it will be too much compromise or it will simply be too hard. I would not reconsider marrying him simply if we were different of races or ethnicities, voted for different political parties, or were in different tax brackets. I would certainly never discriminate against him merely because of his religion. Sure, if I married someone with EXACTLY the same belief system as myself, it might be easier, but it would just be the easy path (and I prefer the path less traveled, you know, with bushes and boulders and such).

Have a little faith in me.
-A

 

[jmcrae]

And finally…
No, I will not reconsider marrying a practicing Catholic because it will be too much compromise or it will simply be too hard. I would not reconsider marrying him simply if we were different of races or ethnicities, voted for different political parties, or were in different tax brackets.

What you fail to grasp is that, unlike one’s religion, these things don’t really have much of an impact on day to day living. Someone of a different race or ethnicity who is an agnostic like you will have the same attitudes toward marriage (definitely, JP ceremony on the beach with dinner and dancing to follow ), children (one boy and one girl, with French immersion science school all the way ), and money (trips, cars, toys, big house, and post secondary education for the kids )

As for your tax bracket, when you get married, you both go into the same one. Some people treat their political party as if it were part of their religion, so I won’t get into that.

I would certainly never discriminate against him merely because of his religion.

His religion isn’t like a skin colour or foreign accent, though. It’s something that’s going to affect your life, every single day of your life, from Matins at 6:00 am right through until Rosary at 8:00 pm.

Sure, if I married someone with EXACTLY the same belief system as myself, it might be easier, but it would just be the easy path (and I prefer the path less traveled, you know, with bushes and boulders and such).

You’re young - the bushes and boulders seem exciting to you, right now. Believe me, they will come anyway, even if you are both of the same religion - and one reaches an age when it’s nice not to have too many of them.

A bit of a challenge is nice - it makes you feel alive - but do you really want to be feeling like you’re doing a final exam that you haven’t studied for, every moment of every day for the rest of your life?

Have you got any idea how long that is?

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

ABello, you are an interesting person- good thing ^^

First of all, I’m devout Roman Catholic and my boyfriend’s a deist. So I know the drill more or less.

Second… you’re technically Catholic. You were baptized, Confirmed- had your Sacraments of Initiation. Unless you formally left the Church through the procedure that’s given for this, you’re Catholic. Not practicing, but you’re still bound by the marriage laws. Even if your boyfriend was an agnostic as well, perhaps never raised religiously, you would have the obligation of being in a Catholic wedding ceremony.

You should brush up a bit on Catholicism, but it shouldn’t be very hard. Raised Catholic and went to Catholic school- some of this at least you should know.

There are tons of rules to a Catholic wedding. And honestly I’m thinking how it would work in your case. Again, technically Catholic, which changes the scenario. First of all, your marriage would be Sacramental which is good… yeah, there’s a lot to this. I’d advise to go have a chat with a good priest at some point. We can offer advice, but that’s about it.

As for my views on interfaith couples- I think some people can’t do it. It’s quite hard, people might not put up with it, or give shaky answers like they’ll let the kids choose the faith when they grow up. But I generally hope that it can be done, 'cause I’m very into romanticism and the belief that with proper love people can do most things.

And before the onslaught of people saying that love isn’t enough- God is Love, and so I quite like my belief that with proper, sacrificing, true love things will work out.

 

[stbruno]

foryourmarriage.org/interior_template.asp?id=20398739

This is a wonderful website that may offers insights in whether you are even ready for marriage.

Believe me, if your partner’s faith is a stumbling block now…something that is a non-negotiable, it will be something you will have to deal with on a daily basis…and you may need help that only premarital counseling can shed light on. I suggest exploring this entire website. It’s a great tool for any couples contemplating marriage, are married or would some day like to be married. I highly recommend it as someone who works on a daily with preparing couples for marriage. Also smartmarriages.com or . All worthy sites for exploring.
growthtrac.com/
foryourmarriage.org/interior_template.asp?id=20398742

 

[jmcrae]

ABello, you are an interesting person- good thing ^^

First of all, I’m devout Roman Catholic and my boyfriend’s a deist. So I know the drill more or less.

Second… you’re technically Catholic. You were baptized, Confirmed- had your Sacraments of Initiation. Unless you formally left the Church through the procedure that’s given for this, you’re Catholic. Not practicing, but you’re still bound by the marriage laws. Even if your boyfriend was an agnostic as well, perhaps never raised religiously, you would have the obligation of being in a Catholic wedding ceremony.

This does change things - I didn’t know that. I thought she was an unbaptized and unchurched person.

I have higher hopes for the marriage, then, because she grew up in a Catholic home, and knows what goes on - and probably still has some left-over Catholic habits, such as celebrating Christmas and Easter.

I would say, go full out with the Catholic wedding, then. Forget the civil ceremony, and do whatever you want for the reception.

By the time the first baby is born, she’ll most likely be the one insisting on a baptism, and picking out a good Catholic school.

 

[1ke]

Regarding #1. The Catholic form of marriage is in a Catholic Church. The relevant canons are:

*Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Can. 1115 Marriages are to be celebrated in a parish where either of the contracting parties has a domicile, quasidomicile, or month long residence or, if it concerns transients, in the parish where they actually reside. With the permission of the proper ordinary or proper pastor, marriages can be celebrated elsewhere.*

To be married to a non-Catholic and to be married somewhere other than a Catholic Church he will need to apply for a dispensation from disparity of cult if you are not baptized. If you are, he will need a permission for a mixed marriage. He can apply for a dispensation from the Catholic form, and if he receives that you could have a marriage ceremony elsewhere-- but it would not be a Catholic marriage ceremony.

And, to receive permission to marry a non-Catholic the Catholic promises to baptize and raise children of the marriage as Catholics and to remove all impediments from the practice of their own faith. The relevant canons are:
Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.*
*
Can. 1126 It is for the conference of bishops to establish the method in which these declarations and promises, which are always required, must be made and to define the manner in which they are to be established in the external forum and the non-Catholic party informed about them.

§2. If grave difficulties hinder the observance of canonical form, the local ordinary of the Catholic party has the right of dispensing from the form in individual cases, after having consulted the ordinary of the place in which the marriage is celebrated and with some public form of celebration for validity. It is for the conference of bishops to establish norms by which the aforementioned dispensation is to be granted in a uniform manner.*

Regarding #2. A Catholic may not participate in multiple wedding ceremonies. In the US, the priest/deacon is also the civil officiant. So there is no such thing as being married “only” in the eys of the church and not the state. The relevant canon is:

§3. It is forbidden to have another religious celebration of the same marriage to give or renew matrimonial consent before or after the canonical celebration according to the norm of §1. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the Catholic who is assisting and a non-Catholic minister together, using their own rites, ask for the consent of the parties.

 

[Just_Lurking]

If anyone could shed some light on this situation, I’d be very appreciative.

Based on everything you’ve written, there are two options:

Option A) Follow the rules and regulations of the Catholic Church.

Option B) Disregard the rules and regulations of the Catholic Church.

Option A means going through Catholic marriage preparation, having a Catholic wedding in a Catholic church with Catholic priest or deacon presiding as your only marriage ceremony.

Option B means doing whatever you like as far as the wedding is concerned, but having the Catholic Church view your marriage as invalid, so both of you would be barred from the sacraments unless and until you remedied the situation by having your marriage convalidated in the Catholic Church. Many parishes will not convalidate a marriage until at least one year after the civil ceremony.

 

[1ke]

In another post you wrote:

I was baptized, had my communion, and was confirmed as a Catholic, and I’ve attended Catholic school for my entire life

That changes EVERYTHING.

You are a Catholic.

That means you are BOTH bound by the Catholic form of marriage and the laws of the Church.

The canons regarding dispensation do not apply. However, the canon regarding multiple ceremonies certainly does.

 

[KCtheMommy]

In another post you wrote:

I was baptized, had my communion, and was confirmed as a Catholic, and I’ve attended Catholic school for my entire life

That changes EVERYTHING.

You are a Catholic.

That means you are BOTH bound by the Catholic form of marriage and the laws of the Church.

The canons regarding dispensation do not apply. However, the canon regarding multiple ceremonies certainly does.

That does change everything.

You know the rules on Communion, so you know if you ask your boyfriend to marry outside of the faith that he’ll not be able to receive.

You are obviously very intelligent and creative (liked your language analogy, but I digress. I can’t apply the same analogy to the roles of Faith in our respective lives. If I married a man in a spanish ceremony and it was bound in faith – and would be a sin to do again – I would do it whole-heartedly and with love. If I could not – I would not marry him, in Spanish, English, French, on a plane, on a train, in a boat or on a goat, in a tree – you get my point.) but the question is – how comprising are you? Or rather how selfless?

YOU are bound to marry in a Catholic ceremony as stated, and if you do not, even if you don’t care to receive the other Sacraments, your prospective DOES.

I guess the question isn’t where or how to get married. It’s: “can I do this for him? If only that he may be right with the Church as his choice of free will and faith commands, and that he can partake fully in the sacraments?” For a devout Catholic there is NO compromise in the sacraments.

You have a lot to think about – good luck!

 

[ABello]

…you folks are replying faster than I can keep up! Here’s what I’ve managed so far:

To jmcrae:
You raise some good points. The analogies I’ve used aren’t quite like religion, and you’re right there. Religion means so much more than superficial differences like skin colour, so I’ll try and explain how in MY particular situation, my boyfriend and I are more alike than different in terms of beliefs. In essence, our differences in religion are more “superficial” that you might initially expect.

First off, I’ve realized that when I used the word “devout” to describe my boyfriend, I made a huge error. Things like 8pm rosary do not occur in his life. Let’s switch to the more accurate word “practicing.”

Now, here’s how we’re similar, in terms of beliefs, values, and all that sort:

• My boyfriend and I (his name’s Andrew, by the way) are both University educated in a Science discipline, and we both agree on how the earth came to be.
• We both obey (more or less), the 10 commandments.
• We both believe in constantly questioning, reevaluating, and probing the world around us. We’re both insanely curious people and we love to argue about things we can’t ever prove, just for sport.
• We both share the same opinions about abortion, sex before marriage, drug and alcohol use, and how you should treat others (as you would like them to treat you, of course!)

And here are the differences:

• Andrew goes to church every Sunday morning. I do not. We both, however, agree on the fact that we’re happy with this arrangement.
• Andrew believes we’re all connected. So do I. He calls this “God,” while I call it the greatest and most intriguing mystery we’ve ever encountered, and ever will.

So what I’ve hoped to show here is that our different religions won’t tear apart our lives. We’re not that different at all. I know this is huge tangent from my original question, but it seems the topic has changed somewhat (an evolution, so to speak ).

To everyone who thinks because I’m “technically” Catholic, everything’s OK:

I know I’ve got all the parts to be able to call myself “Catholic,” but I don’t consider myself as such and I don’t consider myself as being bound by their marriage laws. The way I see it, I’m like a can of soup. Although the label may say “Campbell’s Chicken Noodle” if you look inside and there’s Cream of Broccoli, can you still call it Chicken Noodle soup? I personally don’t think so. I don’t believe in a God, nor do I practice Catholicism in a church, so ignoring the technicalities, I don’t consider myself to be truly Catholic. That, in my opinion, is a title reserved only for people who have their whole heart in it. Also, (and I’m not sure about this), but isn’t it somewhat insulting to the Catholic Church for me to be married in it, without truly believing?

p.s. I very much like what Pro-Life_Teen has written about love, and I’m also quite attracted to Just Lurking’s no-nonsense take on the situation.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Well, we STILL consider you Catholic! :tiphat: Even if you smell like Cream of Broccoli Soup!

 

[ABello]

KCtheMommy, you’re quite a vibrant individual, and I think I’m really warming up to you. You’ve help put things in perspective. Perhaps I didn’t quite realize how much I would be asking my boyfriend to give up, and that’s certainly something to think about.

The fact of the matter is that we’re both willing to compromise. If it really came down to it, I’d be willing to get married in the Catholic Church, and he’d be willing to get married outside of it. It would have been nice to try and find some middle ground where we both only have to compromise a little bit, but it seems that Catholic marriage laws are a little more unforgiving than I originally thought.

Thank you to everyone, you’ve all been very helpful. While my inital question has been answered, feel free to comment more if you think there’s still more to be said.