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Melchior_1
Guest
This. You can count on me to teach you about the faith, I’m certainly not going to teach any Canon Law classes
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Phemie
Guest
Let’s just say that that varies greatly between dioceses and between parishes. Many dioceses make Catholic adults preparing for Confirmation go through the same RCIA process as non-Catholics preparing to come into full Communion. Hardly seems fair but, if they’re not catechized at all, they need pretty much the same information and it becomes too cumbersome to run multiple programs. Heck we can rarely find a parish that offers different programs to the non-baptized from what they offer to the catechized baptized.
No but canon law says they should be confirmed before they marry “if it can be done without grave inconvenience.” How that canon is dealt with varies from pastor to pastor. There seems to be a wide variety of interpretations of the term ‘grave inconvenience’.
I second that advice.
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rayne89
Guest
I would think not having relations with your legal and non-Catholic husband who, most likely would be less than thrilled that can not be intimate with the woman who in his eyes is his wife, would be a grave inconvenience.
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Vico
Guest
The prep is canon 1125.3.
I expect it will be a convalidation with dispensation for lack of form and dispensation for disparity of cult. The valid marriage only begins with the consent given in the convalidation. Catholic matrimonial consent is different than Baptist.
Latin Church canons 1983:
Canon 1160 For a marriage which is invalid because of defect of form to become valid, it must be contracted anew in the canonical form, without prejudice to the provisions of Canon 1127.3 [4].
Canon 1124 Without the express permission of the competent authority, marriage is prohibited between two baptised persons, one of whom was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act, the other of whom belongs to a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the catholic Church.
Canon 1125 The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:
Canon 1125.1 the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;
Canon 1125.2 the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party.
Canon 1125.3 both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.
Canon 1126 It is for the Episcopal Conference to prescribe the manner in which these declarations and promises, which are always required, are to be made, and to determine how they are to be established in the external forum, and how the non-catholic party is to be informed of them.
Canon 1127.1 The provisions of canon 1108 are to be observed in regard to the form to be used in a mixed marriage. If, however, the catholic party contracts marriage with a non-catholic party of oriental rite, the canonical form of celebration is to be observed for lawfulness only; for validity, however, the intervention of a sacred minister is required, while observing the other requirements of law.
Canon 1108.1 Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local Ordinary or parish priest or of the priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who, in the presence of two witnesses, assists, in accordance however with the rules set out in the following canons, and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112.1, 1116 and 1127.2-3.
Canon 1108.2 Only that person who, being present, asks the contracting parties to manifest their consent and in the name of the Church receives it, is understood to assist at a marriage.
Canon 1127.2 If there are grave difficulties in the way of observing the canonical form, the local Ordinary of the catholic party has the right to dispense from it in individual cases, having however consulted the Ordinary of the place of the celebration of the marriage; for validity, however, some public form of celebration is required. It is for the Episcopal Conference to establish norms whereby this dispensation may be granted in a uniform manner.
Canon 1127.3 It is forbidden to have, either before or after the canonical celebration in accordance with 1127.1, another religious celebration of the same marriage for the purpose of giving or renewing matrimonial consent. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the catholic assistant and a non-catholic minister, each performing his own rite, ask for the consent of the parties.
Canon 1108.2 Only that person who, being present, asks the contracting parties to manifest their consent and in the name of the Church receives it, is understood to assist at a marriage.
Canon 1127.2 If there are grave difficulties in the way of observing the canonical form, the local Ordinary of the catholic party has the right to dispense from it in individual cases, having however consulted the Ordinary of the place of the celebration of the marriage; for validity, however, some public form of celebration is required. It is for the Episcopal Conference to establish norms whereby this dispensation may be granted in a uniform manner.
Canon 1127.3 It is forbidden to have, either before or after the canonical celebration in accordance with 1127.1, another religious celebration of the same marriage for the purpose of giving or renewing matrimonial consent. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the catholic assistant and a non-catholic minister, each performing his own rite, ask for the consent of the parties.
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PolishK
Guest
I agree with everyone else. I am definitely going to call up the Parish and ask to speak to the Priest. I’m hoping he can give me better answers.
The woman who does the RCIA class is a Catholic-convert so realistically, she may not know what the process would be like for me, who was “born” and raised Catholic.
I don’t mind doing the RCIA classes, but I do mind having to wait so long for my marriage to become valid. I keep praying to find out some good news.
In response, I’ve been married to my husband for a year and a half.
We were first married by a JOP and then had our wedding two months later in his Baptist Church.
Now let me explain this because I don’t know if it will make a difference or not.
My husband and I dated for 3 years and during the last few months of dating he was at his Officer Training for the Air Force.
I went to visit him one weekend at his training and he proposed to me. This was in March 2009. He was to graduate in April and then get stationed somewhere else (we didn’t know where).
The only weekend he would be allowed to come home for a wedding would be the weekend of June 20th.
Unfortunately, that was the busiest wedding day of the year. We didn’t want to get married in his Church, but all the other ones we called were already booked.
I never called a Catholic Church because I always thought BOTH parties had to be Catholic in order to do so.
Anyway, once my husband received his orders (to Texas) from the military, we found out I would not be moved with him or get any type of benefits if we weren’t married BEFORE the date of his orders (April 15th). Therefore, we decided to do a JOP on April 10th while I was in town for his graduation from Officer Training. We then moved out to Texas together and flew to his home state of Florida for a wedding in June and were married in his Church.
I don’t know if that makes any sense, but if anyone knows if that changes anything - please let me know.
And, also, we were required to go through marriage preparation with his Church.
THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!!
Goodnight and God Bless!!
The woman who does the RCIA class is a Catholic-convert so realistically, she may not know what the process would be like for me, who was “born” and raised Catholic.
I don’t mind doing the RCIA classes, but I do mind having to wait so long for my marriage to become valid. I keep praying to find out some good news.
In response, I’ve been married to my husband for a year and a half.
We were first married by a JOP and then had our wedding two months later in his Baptist Church.
Now let me explain this because I don’t know if it will make a difference or not.
My husband and I dated for 3 years and during the last few months of dating he was at his Officer Training for the Air Force.
I went to visit him one weekend at his training and he proposed to me. This was in March 2009. He was to graduate in April and then get stationed somewhere else (we didn’t know where).
The only weekend he would be allowed to come home for a wedding would be the weekend of June 20th.
Unfortunately, that was the busiest wedding day of the year. We didn’t want to get married in his Church, but all the other ones we called were already booked.
I never called a Catholic Church because I always thought BOTH parties had to be Catholic in order to do so.
Anyway, once my husband received his orders (to Texas) from the military, we found out I would not be moved with him or get any type of benefits if we weren’t married BEFORE the date of his orders (April 15th). Therefore, we decided to do a JOP on April 10th while I was in town for his graduation from Officer Training. We then moved out to Texas together and flew to his home state of Florida for a wedding in June and were married in his Church.
I don’t know if that makes any sense, but if anyone knows if that changes anything - please let me know.
And, also, we were required to go through marriage preparation with his Church.
THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!!
Goodnight and God Bless!!
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PolishK
Guest
Haha…I agree! I can’t imagine how my husband would react to hearing me say, “Oh, gee, honey…turns out we can’t have sexual relations for a year. In fact, we can’t have ANY marital relations for a year. So, just pretend your single now.”
He would NOT be okay with that…and neither would I.
I think that could turn a good marriage into a bad one really quick!!
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
I really do not trust most RCIA instructors today because it seems they do not know what they are talking about. IF your husband refuses to have the marriage blessed and will not sit through marriage prep classes that should not be your fault. I would go to the archdiocese of where you live to get a straight answer.
Wow, Eric, that sounds like it was quite easy for you then!
I was told we would have to go to marriage preparation, which is silly because I’m not going to sit there and have someone talk to me as if I’m not married and ask if I’m sure this guy is who should be with…etc…
Now, when I spoke to my RCIA director, she said “Oh yes, we’ll just have the marriage blessed after your Confirmation”.
She didn’t seem like she thought I would have to do any marriage prep. (I’m telling you right now, my Baptist husband will NOT go to a 6-month long marriage course when we’re already married. Especially because he is in pretty intense flight training with the AF right now).
So, my Confirmation should be in May 2011 which would be almost a YEAR. Why, if we are supposedly sinning against the Church, would they make me wait a year?
I’m just baffled. I know I need to just go talk to the Priest and I will, but until then I’m going to sit here in complete puzzlement.
Thanks for all the responses!!!
God Bless!
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
And this is exactly what I had to do when I came back to the Church at the age of 33!
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Blairamir
Guest
Years ago I got married in an Armenian Orthodox service, at my wife’s church, and without receiving the dispensation beforehand. Then a year later I entered a Confirmation track for adults and found out that my marriage was ‘illicit’ yet valid, since the Church recognizes Armenian Orthodox sacraments. I, um, sorta ‘pressured’ my wife into a meeting with my parish priest (a very friendly one) who asked her all sorts of questions and filled out the required forms to get my marriage sorted out. This whole process strengthened our marriage, and my faith, so I recommend you pursue the dispensation as you seem to be. 
God Bless
God Bless
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Vico
Guest
It makes no difference, since you are baptised Catholic and did not formally defect, you have to get approval of the Church.
This question is on a convalidation application:
“I realize that this is not merely a blessing of our existing marriage, but is actually a new mariage in the Catholic Church.”
If your Baptist betrothed will not cooperate, or either of you do not believe that the above is true, then, a retroactive convalidation (a.k.a. radical sanation) would be needed, which means you use the original consent rather than new consent.
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PolishK
Guest
Oh no, I never meant to imply that my husband is refusing to cooperate. He totally understands that we will need to have our marriage blessed or validated. What I mean is that he will NOT understand having to do a 6-month (or longer) preparation course in order to do so. My husband flies C-130s for the Air Force and is in intense training right now that requires 70-80 hour work weeks. There is no way he even has time to do that.
I don’t mind myself having to do anything, all I mind is the Church making me wait a YEAR and telling me for that YEAR I am not “married” and cannot have any type of marital relations with my husband.
I don’t mind myself having to do anything, all I mind is the Church making me wait a YEAR and telling me for that YEAR I am not “married” and cannot have any type of marital relations with my husband.
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Vico
Guest
OK, I did not assume that, just being as complete as possible.
One Latin pastor where I live said he gives a 45 minute class to satisfy the instruction requirement.
I guess I wanted to emphasise something that I did not know till I read various documents and forms for convalidation, and that is: it is actually a new marriage from the moment of the Catholic celebration of it (convalidation) or from the moment of the grant of the retroactive convalidation (radical sanation). The time from the original attemped marriage till that is not a Catholic marriage. That is a hard for some people to accept, and that belief can invalidate a simple convalidation.
For Simple Convalidation, Canon 1157: The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.
That is why that question is asked on the bride and groom application for convalidation. If the couple do not both have that understanding, then the retroactive validation can be persued instead.
You can see the convalidation instructions and forms used at one site I found:
archatl.com/offices/tribunal/clergy/index.php3
The forms show the various questions asked, and the document on simple convalidation and radical sanations is a good description but does not go into every detail that is on the forms or why.
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Phemie
Guest
Actually, with a radical sanation the marriage is healed at the root and the marriage is considered to have been valid from the time of the legal marriage.
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Vico
Guest
True, or close, it’s actually valid from the moment of valid consent was given in the past which could have been after the celebration (a fine point). The historical origins are that the canonical effects were retroactive to legitimize bastard children (that lost rights to succession).
The legal and spiritual are different issues.
The spiritual effects begin at the moment the radical sanation is granted (for the baptised), not at the moment of the original consent (that time has passed already without spiritual effects). So it becomes valid in the past, and is presumed to be valid and a sacrament (for the baptised) from now on, unless it turns out later to be annulled.
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Vico
Guest
Phemie, this is the canon law for the previous post. Canonical effects only, are retroactive. The validity does not refer back (note the adverb “however” used in §2) but validity is from the moment of the grant. (Canonical effects could be e.g., filiation, financial regime, the right of inheritance, legitimacy of children. Note that some countries may use Church law as civil law.)
CIC Can. 1161:
§1 The retroactive validation of an invalid marriage is its validation without the renewal of consent, granted by the competent authority. It involves a dispensation from an impediment if there is one and from the canonical form if it had not been observed, as well as a referral back to the past of the canonical effects.
§2 The validation takes place from the moment the favour is granted; the referral back, however, is understood to have been made to the moment the marriage was celebrated, unless it is otherwise expressly provided.
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PolishK
Guest
Hi all!!
I would like to let everyone know what happened when I spoke with my Priest today.
After Mass, I talked with him and my RCIA director together.
HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS:
Because I AM NOT CONFIRMED, my marriage is considered valid.
Since I did not reach the confirmation level in the Catholic faith I am not subject to the laws that were never taught to me.
I do have to have my marriage BLESSED, however. I will be setting up an appointment with the Fr. this coming week.
I have to have the marriage blessed BEFORE my Confirmation. If I do not have a blessed marriage that will create an impediment in my Confirmation.
So, to sum it up - I am okay to have my husband be my HUSBAND!
I will begin my RCIA on August 23rd and will then transfer to an RCIA program in Japan in 6 months (where I’ll be moving). My Priest has already said he does this sort of thing all the time.
I wanted to post this information here because, with all the different opinions and advice, I want others in a similar situation as mine to know what process they should have to go through.
Also, I want to say a BIG thank you to everyone who has offered their help on the topic. Whether accurate or not, I believe everyone who provided information did so with the best intentions.
Take Care and God Bless!!
I would like to let everyone know what happened when I spoke with my Priest today.
After Mass, I talked with him and my RCIA director together.
HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS:
Because I AM NOT CONFIRMED, my marriage is considered valid.
Since I did not reach the confirmation level in the Catholic faith I am not subject to the laws that were never taught to me.
I do have to have my marriage BLESSED, however. I will be setting up an appointment with the Fr. this coming week.
I have to have the marriage blessed BEFORE my Confirmation. If I do not have a blessed marriage that will create an impediment in my Confirmation.
So, to sum it up - I am okay to have my husband be my HUSBAND!
I will begin my RCIA on August 23rd and will then transfer to an RCIA program in Japan in 6 months (where I’ll be moving). My Priest has already said he does this sort of thing all the time.
I wanted to post this information here because, with all the different opinions and advice, I want others in a similar situation as mine to know what process they should have to go through.
Also, I want to say a BIG thank you to everyone who has offered their help on the topic. Whether accurate or not, I believe everyone who provided information did so with the best intentions.
Take Care and God Bless!!
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Vico
Guest
Glad to hear you have a solution!
Marriage “blessing” is a convalidation, which means you give new marriage consent or use prior consent (retroactive).
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Phemie
Guest
Which makes absolutely no sense because why would you have to make valid something which already is?
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PolishK
Guest
Well, that’s apparently the way the Diocese here works.
They told me it was not a convalidation.
They told me it was not a convalidation.
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Vico
Guest
I believe you, that Father said it was not a convalidation, but there is no such thing called a marriage blessing in canon law, so it must have another name, which I suspect is radical sanation, because that uses the prior consent of your Baptist marriage and dispenses the required Catholic form of marriage. When you fill out the paperwork out with Father you may find out. If it is a radical sanation, then they will write a letter similar to this, but I don’t know if they will show it to you, unless you ask.
Pursuant to canons 1161-1165 of the Code of Canon Law, I respectfully request a radical sanation of the marriage of ______ and __________ entered into on ___________ at ___________.
Enclosed please find a copy of the certificate of marriage, and a recently issued certificate of baptism/profession of faith of the Catholic party.
The reasons for this request are that ___________ and ____________ were married in a Baptist ceremony although ______________ was Catholic at that time. While their consent continues and both are free to marry, they both believe that the original marriage was valid, so simple convalidation would be defective.
The requisite consents, present from the beginning, continue and appear to be free of any defect. The conditions of canon 1125 have been fulfilled, and the Catholic party wishes to return to the full practice of the faith. Therefore, this petition is requested for the spiritual welfare of the parties concerned.
*Signature *
(Priest or Deacon Name typed)
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