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dans0622
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MaryT777
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MaryT777
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None of the application process was online when I did the process which was years ago. Having an online process where you could track where you are in the process is a great idea. Just writing responses to the TONS and I mean TONS of questions about your childhood, your sex life, and on and on was exhausting and time consuming. No stone is left unturned. I realize the importance of it but an online process would be wonderful.
I think that would be a good start. It’s difficult because a divorce is so draining to deal with in and of itself and the huge amount of paperwork, finding witnesses etc can seem overwhelming.
If I had any advice to give it would be to start the process immediately after a divorce while your memory is good and witnesses still remember you, LOL!~
I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut of all on this issue that is seriously affectingt the Church as many Catholics leave the Church that are divorced. It’s a serious issue where your life is hanging on a thread in some ways regarding your future to remarry and remain in good standing in the Church.
Can you even imagine being told if you remarry you can’t Commune? It’s horrifying to even think about as well as the loneliness of then thinking of a life alone. Sure the choice should be apparent but the reality of it was frightening to me.
God bless,
Mary.
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bobcrawford
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A lot of items to discuss, some I will agree with and others disagree.
But after what I learned concerning marriage laws, parental rights, divorce, etc. all I can say is that in our state (as marriage/divorce laws vary by state) that if you are a woman and want to have children, it is better to live with the father and if he strays, becomes abusive, etc. and either leaves on his own or you have to kick him out, you are better off being unmarried. You can still get child support, but the father does not have the same rights as a parent. You can also move away from him with the children and he will still have to pay to support the children. An unwed mother has more options to protect herself and her children if she was never married to the father to begin with. Many states have put women is such a horrible position in divorce even when they are the innocent party. This is due to so-called “no fault divorce.”
Furthermore, for the sake of discussion, even IF the Church were to determine the marriage was valid from the beginning, it is abuse to have a civil divorce, then expect the woman to remain alone and unmarried the rest of her life (or his life if the woman was unfaithful, but it is usually harder on a woman) because of the sins committed by another.
Remember, while Jesus forbid divorce, except in immoral situations as noted in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus also said to Peter (apostolic succession) “what you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven, what you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven” gives the Church the authority to release someone from their marriage vows.
The Church needs to stop punishing one spouse for the acts of another innocent spouse. Is that really want Jesus wants? I don’t think so.
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Rau
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The analogous can happen in a secular, criminal proceeding too. It is not easy to dispense with the principle that evidence needs to be available to be disputed, or the criminal law would have found a solution long ago.
However, annulments happen after divorce which most everyone accepts as ending the partnership of the two. Annulments can also be pursued by one party without the cooperation of the other - is that the case here?? Why the other party should have any right to see testimony in such a situation [divorced + other party not participating in proceedings] is beyond me.
I suppose I can imagine the ‘other party’ choosing to participate in the annulment with a view to frustrating the wife. This creates the difficulty - as per my first paragraph.
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Rau
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Tom, when you put it all in context (by including the red bit), you get his meaning notwithstanding the common language ambiguity of married/divorced. He is referring to the circumstance that by virtue of divorce, they are not living together, their lives are now independent - but that this is no impediment to the man causing the wife grief…Even though they are not married…
Bobcrawford:
How would this be true if they did not get an annulment?
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Rau
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If I may ask…
Did your spouse participate in the annulment because he desired such result (lest he might want to marry another Catholic on day??)
Or did he seek to oppose the granting of annulment to frustrate you?
Were his lies:
a) in pursuit of either of the above goals;
b) directed at saving himself embarrassment;
c) opportunistic and malicious - aimed at hurting you.
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MaryT777
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My spouse knew it was important to me so his lies were a feeble attempt on his part to “ruin it” for me. He said things were fine when we were married and then XYZ lies.
They were also an attempt to hurt me but alas he had hurt me so much with his emotional and verbal abuse during the last two years of our marriage it was like nothing to read that shocked me. I was no treat either then during that time.
Shortly after our divorce he married another divorced Catholic and they married in the Lutheran Church and later baptized their two children they had in the Lutheran Church.
She was a divorced Catholic without a decree of nullity so they could not marry in the Catholic Church.
You bring up an interesting point. I never thought he could have been seeking to avoid embarrassment but by golly I think that was a great part of it in retrospect. We were married 10 years and trust me on this one, neither of us were a shining example of anything remotely close to the behavior of a spouse in a sacrament marriage those last two years. That said I was willing to “admit” to it and he was not. Good point.
I might add if one spouse is willing to work with the process and answer all the ?'s honestly, openly and to the best of their ability, that in my opinion the Tribunal can work with that with little or no (name removed by moderator)ut from the other spouse. My spouse wrote just a 2 page letter and told me he shredded the rest.
May God bless those seeking a decree of nullity with whatever needs their intentions might reflect.
If you are ever in the position of having to be a witness please do so and also please learn about the process. Many witnesses also don’t understand it’s not a he did/she did rendition of the marriage. It’s was it valid at the time of the vows and I think more could be done to help witnesses understand this and then they would be enabled to give more valuable testimony.
Mary.
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dans0622
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Can anyone give some practical suggestions as to how technology could be used to make the “annulment process” more efficient?
I think someone mentioned the idea of a Party being able to check the status of a case online. While convenient, I doubt this would ever be done and I don’t think it would make the process more speedy.
Dan
I think someone mentioned the idea of a Party being able to check the status of a case online. While convenient, I doubt this would ever be done and I don’t think it would make the process more speedy.
Dan
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MaryT777
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I think it would be of great help if the ?'s for witnesses, the ?'s for the respondent and petitioner were online. It’s much easier to type than to write and this is extensive. It is not just a few ?'s and voila! It is PAGES AND PAGES of testimony. I also think it would help
with witness cooperation if it was simplified to an online procedure.
Yes, while you are waiting for 1.5 years as I did for your decree of nullity to be evaluated I would definitely check online. It would be so reassuring to know it’s “being processed” at the first instance court or sent to the second instance court and being evaluated etc.
Mine went to two courts and I received a letter about once every 6 months if that.
Only other correspondence I received was one of my witnesses could not be used because she did not speak to the validity of the marriage in ways the tribunal needed.
It’s insane in my opinion to think witnesses, even Catholic witnesses, know what the tribunal is looking for in testimony. As I noted, it’s not “who did what to who” after the marriage was years in. Most don’t understand that.
There needs to be clear written instructions given to all parties as to what exactly a decree of nullity is, what type of testimony is needed, etc, so people (especially those that are not Catholic) have a clue as to what the issue for the Church is exactly.
May God bless all those witnesses that currently try their best to give testimony albeit in my opinion few have a clue about what the Tribunal is evaluating.
Anything online that provides any info even a processing time line where it sits months in waiting as it does in one court or the other would be helpful and I can guarantee you utilized for those that wait 2 YEARS or more for a decision.
When I started my proceedings in Omaha, NE, I truly had to sign a paper that said I would not “sue” anyone until the proceedings were done. That was because there was a big lawsuit that got to the courts in Omaha where someone declared their spouse had defamed their character by lying to the Tribunal in their testimony. Not that reassuring.
Not only that I have been told that someone now can request their testimony be held in private. What a bunch of Be-Loney that is. The testimony of everyone should be open for both the petitioner and respondent (if I remember the correct terms) to view and refute if necessary. That just opens the procedure to those that lie for whatever reason they choose to.
I can only hope now this is not the case anymore. “Secret” testimony is frightening. Why need it be secret in any circumstance. The only circumstance I can imagine is the safety of one party or the other and one might hope if someone is that dangerous and could be “pushed off the deep end into committing harm to another” based on a testimony to a tribunal their marriage be immediately dissolved as this person would have to be highly unstable and I would imagine that did not just happen overnight.
JMO
Mary.
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Joe_5859
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Bob, I definitely sympathize with what your friend is going though. It’s terrible.
However, let us think about what would happen in the case where the woman was the deceitful one who wants to obtain an annulment just to hurt her ex. She gives her testimony saying that her ex-husband had all these affairs. She produces email “evidence” of these affairs that she manufactured through fake email accounts.
How would the Marriage Tribunal office differentiate between your friend’s situation and the hypothetical situation above? On the surface, they would look nearly identical based on the one person’s testimony alone.
If your friend has concerns about safety, she needs to mention that. I would venture to guess that the Tribunal office would know how to handle a situation like that. They’ve seen a lot.
However, let us think about what would happen in the case where the woman was the deceitful one who wants to obtain an annulment just to hurt her ex. She gives her testimony saying that her ex-husband had all these affairs. She produces email “evidence” of these affairs that she manufactured through fake email accounts.
How would the Marriage Tribunal office differentiate between your friend’s situation and the hypothetical situation above? On the surface, they would look nearly identical based on the one person’s testimony alone.
If your friend has concerns about safety, she needs to mention that. I would venture to guess that the Tribunal office would know how to handle a situation like that. They’ve seen a lot.
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dans0622
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Hello,
Thanks for the reply. On this point, I meant that I doubt a tribunal would ever set up such a system, not that people would never check it, if available.
In my opinion (as a tribunal person, not petitioner/respondent), a better way to check the status of a case is to call. Not only would information be given but it is also an opportunity, in a subtle way, to tell the Tribunal to keep things moving.
Dan
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kozlosap
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Bob - your posts in this forum have been thoughtfully written and hold many truths!
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bobcrawford
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From a civil perspective.
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MaryT777
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I was never encouraged to call the Tribunal once the paperwork was completed but to “wait” for the letters. The tribunal is too busy in most places to man the telephone calls most likely of frustrated “waiting in the wings” parishioners.
Mary.
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bobcrawford
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I am sure things similar happen. In the situation I am referring to, the emails have pictures, some a bit explicit if you know what I mean, and they were provided by the spouse of the person her husband was cheating with and the other affected spouse is also a police officer. So I think the evidence is overwhelming with proof.
No, we have discussed all this with the Tribunal office and they are steadfast about making sure the cheating spouse has access to the testimony. Their process is more important than the safety and on-going “relationship” of the two ex-spouses who have to deal with each other for the sake of the children.
But I had a talk with her the other day to have her start moving forward with the annulment and emotionally she is just not there. The civil proceeding was well over a year, put her in the hospital numerous times, and she said she is just not ready to go through yet another divorce through the Church.
What the Church puts people through in these cases is just awful. They just do not understand the emotional toll it takes on some people. They really do not care.
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bobcrawford
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The more I talk to people about the process, the more I think it is easier to deal with the IRS than it is the Catholic Church
Maybe it would be better to have the parish priests be able to sit down with the divorced spouses privately and determine if they think the annulment should be granted. Usually the priest knows the people better than any Tribunal and can surely make a more informed judgement.
I just wonder if Jesus wanted a Church with Tribunals, Laws, Courts, etc…was it really supposed to be this complicated?
Seems Scripture is pretty clear. No divorce unless there is immorality. Serial cheating is immorality. Annulment granted. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
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MaryT777
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The whole process is a nightmare in my opinion. People you never even meet in First and Second instant courts making decisions that determine your life course.
Mary.
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MaryT777
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Good point, indeed.The more I talk to people about the process, the more I think it is easier to deal with the IRS than it is the Catholic Church
Maybe it would be better to have the parish priests be able to sit down with the divorced spouses privately and determine if they think the annulment should be granted. Usually the priest knows the people better than any Tribunal and can surely make a more informed judgement.
I just wonder if Jesus wanted a Church with Tribunals, Laws, Courts, etc…was it really supposed to be this complicated?
Seems Scripture is pretty clear. No divorce unless there is immorality. Serial cheating is immorality. Annulment granted. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Mary.
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