Marriage/divorce in protestantism

[happygal]

Yes, the church my wife grew up in follows the Bible closely. Remarriage is only allowed upon the death of a spouse. Divorce is only allowed when one spouse commits adultery, and the divorcing spouse must attempt reconciliation until the divorced spouse dies. Then and only then can the divorcing spouse remarry.

This isn’t some small local church, but a large church with congregations in about 30 countries. I do not want to call the name of it for personal reasons.

My church practise that as well, there is no other reason to file for divorce to marry somebody else if the reason you give is character indifferent, also in my church both need to be Christian to have a church wedding , else the couple can only opt for a civil marriage ceremony outside the church

 

[Eliza10]

Just so we are all clear here. The other poster simply asked if my former spouse was just being spiteful or believed that we were validly married. I was the one that said she was being spiteful. This is not an just my opinion or judgment. She has told me that she does not beleive that we are married but that she will do everything in her power to prevent a nullity from ever being granted. If that does not define spiteful I do not know what does.

Hi, I lost this trhread, and just found it now. Yes, that sounds spiteful!

 

[RWMorris]

How does this support the 93% number exactly. This is the 20 year old opinion of one person that 90% of divorced Catholics Could obtain annulments. This does not support the 93% number claimed by another poster at all.

If people are going to make claims and show numbers they should be able to back those numbers by something other than someone’s opinion.

My 2nd source in that post claims a much higher number:

“A high percentage of cases that are tried end in a declaration of nullity. From 1984 to 1994 it was 97% for First Instance trials. All cases however have to have a second trial. The percentage of decisions overturned in the United States is 4/10 of 1%. “What the picture reveals is that mandatory review, and appeals leading to retrials at Second Instance, have done very little to tarnish America’s reputation as the annulment capital of the universe.””

• Fr. Leonard Kennedy, The Annulment Crisis in the Church, Catholic Insight, March 1999 (catholicinsight.com/online/ch…/c_annul.shtml))
  Also if you go to this website you’ll see that this article was updated in January 2006. The article is not foot-noted so I guess it isn’t authoritative in nature either.

The Diocese I live in says that the 10 year average for successful annulments is about 95%, but since I can’t document those numbers I guess that is hearsay also.

 

[RWMorris]

well I know alot of people are up in arms about the whole thing because they think it makes too easy for people to get remarried.I’m not even catholic yet so I never heard of any restriction on getting remarried till 4 months ago.my ex was an adultress so I thought I had total justification.I apologize I though my numbers from these catholic websites were acurate but maybe not.but the 90 percent nulity rate is a fact I have read in many places.I personell think its more of a problem about the marriages not the process.

It’s a terrible situation for the Church to be in. On the one hand we need “tough love”, and for divorce to be hard to obtain. On the other hand the Church needs to be forgiving. A Catholic friend of mine complained to me that it would be easier to just kill his ex-, confess it, do penance, and get remarried in the Church. He was just kidding of course, but it does illustrate a point, even though the means is logically invalid and morally reprehensible (sp?).

 

[Aesq]

My 2nd source in that post claims a much higher number:

“A high percentage of cases that are tried end in a declaration of nullity. From 1984 to 1994 it was 97% for First Instance trials. All cases however have to have a second trial. The percentage of decisions overturned in the United States is 4/10 of 1%. “What the picture reveals is that mandatory review, and appeals leading to retrials at Second Instance, have done very little to tarnish America’s reputation as the annulment capital of the universe.””

• Fr. Leonard Kennedy, The Annulment Crisis in the Church, Catholic Insight, March 1999 (catholicinsight.com/online/ch…/c_annul.shtml))
  Also if you go to this website you’ll see that this article was updated in January 2006. The article is not foot-noted so I guess it isn’t authoritative in nature either.

The Diocese I live in says that the 10 year average for successful annulments is about 95%, but since I can’t document those numbers I guess that is hearsay also.

The article is not actually really an article it is more of a book review of a book written in 1998. It was written in 1999 the website was updated in 2006 there is no reference to the article/review being updated.

Why can’t you document those numbers. What Diocese are you refering to? If they will give you those numbers I am sure they would provide them in to anyone.

Why do you want to take a sarcastic tone? All I am asking is that if poeple are going to cite numbers they should be able to provide their sources. You have provided your sources. Now people can evaluate that information in light of the source. There is no reason to get upset about being asked to provide a source for your numbers.

 

[Eliza10]

The article is not actually really an article it is more of a book review of a book written in 1998. It was written in 1999 the website was updated in 2006 there is no reference to the article/review being updated…

Yes, and I thought this quote from that review is something to consider,

“…The author of this book is a sociologist. After he had been married for fifteen years, he was notified that he was the respondent in the case for annulment of his marriage, which he was perfectly sure had been valid. In order to oppose the annulment he had to spend all his spare time reading about annulments and fighting to save the validity of his marriage…”

Clearly he was driven! Was he as driven in understanding his own role in his failed marraige? And is he driven for truth, or, is he driven to prove himself right, and/or driven to prove that that “public enemy”, the Catholic Church, is wrong? (and theres always a pile of money for a new book on that!) And if so, was he as driven to understand where the Catholic Church is coming from?

He had a bias. Was that a handicap?

I don’t know the answers, but those are some questions.

…Why can’t you document those numbers? What Diocese are you refering to? If they will give you those numbers I am sure they would provide them in to anyone.

Why do you want to take a sarcastic tone? All I am asking is that if poeple are going to cite numbers they should be able to provide their sources…

I appreciate your taking RWMorris to task for his figures, and his sarcastic tone as well. It is difficult enough to be saddled with the tag “divorced” for the rest of your life, even though for so many of us it was completely beyond our control. Then now to see the whole annulment process cast in a scandalous light as well. Lets make sure the truth is spoken on this topic, not just judgments from those who haven’t been in these shoes.

And I think the divorce and annulment rates are largely a reflection of our sin-sick society. Not something that can be solved by the Church blanketly telling everyone they just have to stay put.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

The Orthodox allow divorce and remarriage in certain circumstances, and have done so since the days of the united Church. I’m not saying I agree with their position, but I just I’d put that info out there…

God bless!

 

[jmcrae]

It’s a terrible situation for the Church to be in. On the one hand we need “tough love”, and for divorce to be hard to obtain. On the other hand the Church needs to be forgiving. A Catholic friend of mine complained to me that it would be easier to just kill his ex-, confess it, do penance, and get remarried in the Church. He was just kidding of course, but it does illustrate a point, even though the means is logically invalid and morally reprehensible (sp?).

Actually he would never be allowed to get married in the Church if he murdered his previous spouse, because he would not be considered “properly disposed” for the Sacrament.

That’s also another consideration in the annulment process. Just because you receive a Declaration of Nullity doesn’t automatically make you free to remarry.

If they look at the circumstances of the previous putative marriage and the divorce, and find that you were at fault, then you might not be ever allowed to get married again, even if you have never been validly married before, because they would look at your disposition, as well as whether you had received a Declaration of Nullity.

 

[RWMorris]

The article is not actually really an article it is more of a book review of a book written in 1998. It was written in 1999 the website was updated in 2006 there is no reference to the article/review being updated.

Why can’t you document those numbers. What Diocese are you refering to? If they will give you those numbers I am sure they would provide them in to anyone.

Why do you want to take a sarcastic tone? All I am asking is that if poeple are going to cite numbers they should be able to provide their sources. You have provided your sources. Now people can evaluate that information in light of the source. There is no reason to get upset about being asked to provide a source for your numbers.

I’m sorry, I’m not the one who originally quoted the numbers, I was only trying to help because I had heard likewise.

The Diocese I was refering to was the Diocese of Oklahoma. The citations I gave you were legitimate sources, but they were not primary sources. I had no intention of sarcasm in my reply to you. God bless you.

 

[RWMorris]

I appreciate your taking RWMorris to task for his figures, and his sarcastic tone as well. It is difficult enough to be saddled with the tag “divorced” for the rest of your life, even though for so many of us it was completely beyond our control.

Those figures were not originally quoted by me, as I said before, I was attempting to help in the discussion. I apologize that my attempt at humor was poor.

I, too, am saddled with the tag “divorced” for the rest of my life. I am in the process of obtaining an annulment and am keenly interested in the discussion. God bless you.

 

[RWMorris]

Actually he would never be allowed to get married in the Church if he murdered his previous spouse, because he would not be considered “properly disposed” for the Sacrament.

That’s also another consideration in the annulment process. Just because you receive a Declaration of Nullity doesn’t automatically make you free to remarry.

Good point, and one that I was not aware of.

On the second point, I have a question for you. What happens if the divorce one is seeking an annulment for took place 25 years ago, and one is remarried with 4 children and grand children, and the Church grants an annulment but decides that they will not grant permission to remarry? Ouch! God bless.

 

[jmcrae]

Good point, and one that I was not aware of.

On the second point, I have a question for you. What happens if the divorce one is seeking an annulment for took place 25 years ago, and one is remarried with 4 children and grand children, and the Church grants an annulment but decides that they will not grant permission to remarry? Ouch! God bless.

I suppose there would be some kind of a “pastoral solution” if that problem were to arise. I can’t imagine how it would, though - the Tribunal is thorough, but it’s not robotic.

 

[frnate]

The Orthodox allow divorce and remarriage in certain circumstances, and have done so since the days of the united Church. I’m not saying I agree with their position, but I just I’d put that info out there…

God bless!

After reading some of the posts here I was about to mention this very fact. A good friend of mine is an Orthodox priest and he informed me that the rule of thumb in Orthodoxy is no more than FOUR marriages. I guess they have to draw the line somewhere.

On the other hand, I think this subject is where the magisterium goes way over into the deep end of western rationalism and nit-picks this to death. Perhaps even to the damnation of people who have clearly made a mistake and really just need to be ministered to by their Church. At a time in their lives when they need them the most, they are denied the lifegiving benefits of the Sacraments.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[Contarini]

I’ve been involved for some time in an apologetics discussion, and as we were discussing the consistency of church teaching, this came up, and I thought it should give pause to Bible Christians.
Has anyone ever heard of a protestant church denying two people marriage because they were previously married to another? Scripture is abundantly clear, even in the NT for anyone who thinks the 10 Commandments are old news, that marriage is sacred in the eyes of God, and that He despises divorce. Yet, somehow the Catholic Church (correct me if I’m wrong) seems to be the only institution that takes this seriously, refusing to marry two people if one or both have been married before.
Anybody?

Of course. Conservative Mennonites, strict Holiness folks, and some regular old fundamentalists consider all remarriage after divorce to be adultery. And there are no annulments–so unlike the Catholic Church they really do refuse to marry anyone who has been married before. They don’t play games with what is “real” marriage.

Many of the more moderate holiness/Pentecostal groups refuse to allow divorced/remarried people to function as clergy.

Traditional Calvinists believe that divorce and remarriage are legitimate if the spouse commits adultery, apostasizes (among the really strict folks this could include conversion to Catholicism, as people familiar with the story of Scott and Kimberly Hahn will remember), or abandons the innocent spouse. But they are certainly not legitimate for “incompatibility” or nonsense like that. Many other conservative Protestants hold similar views, and I think this position can be defended from Scripture. Probably more easily than the current Catholic understanding of annulment, which really looks like a blatant attempt to twist traditional teaching to make it conform to the spirit of the age. An honest recognition that there are grounds for divorce is, IMHO, more Biblical and more moral, as well as more compassionate. If you really want to be strict, you should take the position of the really conservative Protestants that any public declaration of marriage is binding (assuming that the spouses weren’t married before, of course).

I remember someone my folks talked to who basically got up in the middle of the night and left her (second) husband because she was convinced she was living in adultery. I’m not sure this was the right thing to do–I don’t think the solution to divorce is another divorce–but frankly I’ve never heard of a contemporary Catholic doing this. I was in RCIA quite a bit, and all the divorced couples seemed to expect as a matter of course that their annulment would “come through” at some point. I certainly saw no signs that they were abstaining from sexual relations in the meantime, and I never heard anyone suggest that they should. (If this is poor catechesis, why did the Pope endorse it? He suggested a year or so ago that divorced and remarried couples should view abstention from the Eucharist as a spiritual discipline. He didn’t say that they should avoid having sex, as far as I remember–presumably if they did that they wouldn’t have to abstain from the Eucharist.)

From the standpoint of really conservative Protestants, you guys are wimps. I can’t see that your stance is really all that strict.

Edwin

 

[jmcrae]

I was in RCIA quite a bit, and all the divorced couples seemed to expect as a matter of course that their annulment would “come through” at some point.

As an RCIA leader, what’s going on behind the scenes is that those that aren’t likely to aren’t encouraged to come to RCIA.

I certainly saw no signs that they were abstaining from sexual relations in the meantime, and I never heard anyone suggest that they should.

Again, a private conversation that you would not have been part of. They are not supposed to be having sex, and the reason they are not supposed to be receiving Holy Communion (referring to the Catholic party) is because they are living together. That by itself is a scandal - they don’t have to be having sex. (The fact that you were assuming they were shows why.)

From the standpoint of really conservative Protestants, you guys are wimps. I can’t see that your stance is really all that strict.

Edwin

I’ve never thought it was all that strict either - but compared to what people are used to in the secular world (anything goes) it probably seems strict, when they first encounter it.

 

[tealblue]

I have heard of several people getting married in a catholic church who have prior marriages without an annulment.I have no idea what kind of catholic church is doing this.A friend of my wife who is catholic married a mormon who was once married.they first explored an anulment but decided it took too long and married in some other catholic church.I’m basically a protestant who is entering rcia tommorow.my wife recieved her annulment last week after 3 weeks because she is catholic and married by a justice of the peace.I was also married by the judge but I’m not catholic so mine is still up in the air.no one as of yet told us that we are commiting adultry,i’m doing rcia by myself so I’m not sure if it will come up. I don’t like the fact that after 2 years of marriage I’m just finding this out.Its like asking someone to put their marriage on hold.if I would have discovered the faith long ago I don’t think I would be in this situation.I can look back to all my bad misfortunes and can atribute them to sin.

One question I would like to know is what happens to people who can’t get annulments but are already married and have kids and stuff.I guess either go to the orthodox faith or something else

 

[jmcrae]

I was also married by the judge but I’m not catholic so mine is still up in the air.no one as of yet told us that we are commiting adultry,i’m doing rcia by myself so I’m not sure if it will come up.

Bring it up with your RCIA leader, and get the proceedings started. You won’t be able to become Catholic without a Declaration of Nullity and a valid marriage ceremony with your wife. Don’t wait to “spring” this on your RCIA leaders five minutes before the Easter Vigil. (Your other alternative is to become single, but for pastoral reasons, no one is going to recommend that, since it would be unfair to your current family. Find out right away what you have to do to get going on a Marriage Tribunal investigation into your previous marriage.)

One question I would like to know is what happens to people who can’t get annulments but are already married and have kids and stuff.I guess either go to the orthodox faith or something else

What a lot of people in this situation do is they live the Catholic life (come to Mass and participate in social activities) without participating in the Sacraments (not receiving Holy Communion, etc.) - until something in their situation changes - for example, if the ex-spouse dies, they could become free to be married in the Church.

My father-in-law was in this situation (my MIL was Protestant, and they were married in the Protestant church without a dispensation; my FIL was excommunicated because of that), and what happened with him was that when he became very old, he was reconciled to the Church, and received the Sacraments on his death bed.

 

[tealblue]

sorry if I mislead you what I meant by up in the air is that I have a while to wait for mine.my anullment was accepted sep 1 to be investigated. but still no guarenties.my mariage tribumal said she will try to get this done before easter vigil.

 

[jmcrae]

sorry if I mislead you what I meant by up in the air is that I have a while to wait for mine.my anullment was accepted sep 1 to be investigated. but still no guarenties.my mariage tribumal said she will try to get this done before easter vigil.

Oh, I see.

Yes, there can be no guarantees about anything, at this point, but at least the process is underway, and you will find out your status one way or the other.