"Marriage is Not Consent"

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J_Peterson said:
So if a person believes the reason isn’t “serious” enough then they can go ahead and have sex anyway. What if they have to hold their spouse down in order to have sex, is that within Catholic teaching? I don’t mean to get graphic here but what exactly are you condoning? My God, talk about legalism 😦

ETA: Being dead serious, if I believed that Christ condones marital rape I would leave the Church in a second and become her biggest enemy. Good thing I can’t imagine Christ siding with a baby of a man that can’t control their desires. This thread is disturbing to me. If your that weak go and masturbate and keep your sin to yourself. At least your only hurting yourself with that.
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I agree. I too find much of what is being said here incredibly disturbing. It also seems that much of what is being said tacitly assumes that a woman will withhold and she should submit to a man. HORRIFYING.
 
Dan_Grelinger said:
But the Catholic Church teaches that for married couples, consent has already been given, and ‘no’ is withdrawal of consent, and a grave sin.
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Would you please link a source from the Catholic Church for what you are saying. You seem to know where you read this.

By the way, your first post should have a link to a news source to begin a thread in the World News forum. You may be taking things out of context. Would be helpful to read the article ourselves.
 
BoomBoomMancini said:
It works just as well when turned around. Making sacrifice on behalf of the other person is great. Maybe that sacrifice should be the spouse desiring sex accepts the demurral gracefully without pouting or badgering the other person.

I think a lot of this hinges on reasonableness. If one partner is generally receptive, but occasionally says “Not tonight, honey.” I think that’s totally fine. And if the desiring spouse tries to wring sex from them like a bar rag, I think that’s extremely selfish.

If, on the other hand, one of the spouses is saying “not tonight” every night for a long period of time, then I think there is a stronger case that they are not fulfilling their marital duties.
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Exactly.
 
BoomBoomMancini said:
It works just as well when turned around. Making sacrifice on behalf of the other person is great. Maybe that sacrifice should be the spouse desiring sex accepts the demurral gracefully without pouting or badgering the other person.

I think a lot of this hinges on reasonableness. If one partner is generally receptive, but occasionally says “Not tonight, honey.” I think that’s totally fine. And if the desiring spouse tries to wring sex from them like a bar rag, I think that’s extremely selfish.

If, on the other hand, one of the spouses is saying “not tonight” every night for a long period of time, then I think there is a stronger case that they are not fulfilling their marital duties.
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👍

Also would just want to remind that if someone (usually wife) is saying no for a long time, there’s probably a darn good reason why. Does she find it painful?? Or do you just suck at it? Any loving spouse would try to find out instead of pulling out the “it’s a sin” card. In fact, I don’t even know how that would turn out if he did. She feels forced into having sex and then what happens? She lays there while her spouse does his thing? That idea is so distressing.
 
Dan_Grelinger said:
But the Catholic Church teaches that for married couples, consent has already been given, and ‘no’ is withdrawal of consent, and a grave sin.
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That is one of the most bizarre assertions that I have ever read.
 
Dan_Grelinger said:
But the Catholic Church teaches that for married couples, consent has already been given, and ‘no’ is withdrawal of consent, and a grave sin.
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What. in. the. HELL.

That’s consent to marriage. Not to sex on demand!!!

You think you can rape your wife because you married her?

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Please stay far away from women.
 
Irishmom2 said:
Not to get off topic, but that’s hardly a “reason.” :rolleyes:
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Yes true 😃 but my point is that a decent spouse should find out the reason why and both should find a solution, as opposed to just demanding sex. This is an obvious point, but it’s still important enough to bring it up since there are messed up opinions on this topic
 
Lea101 said:
👍

Also would just want to remind that if someone (usually wife) is saying no for a long time, there’s probably a darn good reason why. Does she find it painful?? Or do you just suck at it? Any loving spouse would try to find out instead of pulling out the “it’s a sin” card. In fact, I don’t even know how that would turn out if he did. She feels forced into having sex and then what happens? She lays there while her spouse does his thing? That idea is so distressing.
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This is a very good point. Talk to your spouse if there’s an issue. A while back we had a bit of a dry spell and I was getting cranky. Because I didn’t talk to her directly and held it in we ended up fighting. After that she was more cognizant of it and I made sure to let her know if I feel neglected and there weren’t any more issues. When she went off birth control things got A LOT busier if you know what I mean. I didn’t know that they could affect the libido that much.
 
Dan_Grelinger said:
The obvious implication of this statement is that you are allowed to engage in sexual activity with someone that you have a relationship with (other than a valid marriage), if you choose to do so.

What would be true would be to say:

“You are not PERMITTED to have sex
with anyone you have a relationship with
unless that person is your true spouse.”

In addition, marriage is consent.

From the catechism: "The Church holds the exchange of consent between the spouses to be the indispensable element that “makes the marriage.” If consent is lacking there is no marriage.

“The consent by which the spouses mutually give and receive one another is sealed by God himself.”

Dan Grelinger
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I looked up your quote in the CCC, and you’ve taken it out of context. When the CCC talks about consent, it is talking about the act of getting married - that neither party is being coerced or forced into it, and that both parties are freely and willingly making the decision to marry. When the CCC goes on to say:
The consent consists in a “human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other”: “I take you to be my wife” - "I take you to be my husband."126 This consent that binds the spouses to each other finds its fulfillment in the two “becoming one flesh.”
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I believe it is talking about the consummation of the marriage, not what you are suggesting, which is that one spouse does not have the right to refuse the other. This is not true. As another poster said, marital rape is real and serious.

Lou
 
starshiptrooper said:
You are right, how stupid of me to suggest that one party should be willing to take one for the team.
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As already noted you seem to be implying the person who doesn’t want to have sex should always be the one who takes one for the team.
 
starshiptrooper said:
You are right, how stupid of me to suggest that one party should be willing to take one for the team.
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That’s - really - not the way you want your spouse to start thinking about sex with you.

When your spouse starts viewing sex as ‘taking one for the team’ or a ‘marital duty’, then the quality of your sexual experience is going to be much, much less than it would be otherwise.

Take the long term view and value quality over quantity.
 
lmachine said:
As already noted you seem to be implying the person who doesn’t want to have sex should always be the one who takes one for the team.
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A modicum of reading comprehension would serve you well.
 
starshiptrooper said:
You are right, how stupid of me to suggest that one party should be willing to take one for the team.
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I get what you’re saying, and I don’t think anyone really disagrees. It could very well be a meritorious act of selfless love for one spouse to think, “I’d really rather just go to sleep, but I can tell my spouse really wants to, so I’m going to muster up some energy and do it out of love for them.” That’s great.

I think what people are arguing is the idea that one spouse has the right to insist in the face of a “no.”
 
Dan_Grelinger said:
In addition, marriage is consent.

From the catechism: "The Church holds the exchange of consent between the spouses to be the indispensable element that “makes the marriage.” If consent is lacking there is no marriage.

“The consent by which the spouses mutually give and receive one another is sealed by God himself.”

Dan Grelinger
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Yes and one is generally “obligated” to marital relations with ones Spouse. That is part of the consent. So the quote is wrong on that too.
 
Humanise Vitae says the following:

“Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one’s partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife.”
 
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