"Marriage is Not Consent"

[lmachine]

A modicum of reading comprehension would serve you well.

Surprisingly I actually have a decent amount of reading comprehension. You said:

However if you are married and your spouse wants to have sex with you even if you do not feel like it, most of the time you should. I thought a major part of marriage and family was making some sacrifices on behalf of the other person. The breadwinner still has to go to work even when they do not feel like it. If you have children, you still need to be a parent to them even when they have driven you crazy all day long. Why would that not apply to sex?

You are saying that you have to go to work when you don’t want to, you have to parent if you don’t want to, and then imply that that same kind obligation should apply to sex (you should sacrifice even if you don’t want to). You don’t say that the partner who wants sex when the other doesn’t should consider making a sacrifice and forgoing sex for the sake of his or her partner, you imply the sacrifice should always be by the person who doesn’t want sex.

 

[Sarcelle]

It works just as well when turned around. Making sacrifice on behalf of the other person is great. Maybe that sacrifice should be the spouse desiring sex accepts the demurral gracefully without pouting or badgering the other person.

I think a lot of this hinges on reasonableness. If one partner is generally receptive, but occasionally says “Not tonight, honey.” I think that’s totally fine. And if the desiring spouse tries to wring sex from them like a bar rag, I think that’s extremely selfish.

If, on the other hand, one of the spouses is saying “not tonight” every night for a long period of time, then I think there is a stronger case that they are not fulfilling their marital duties.

If one of the spouses is always refusing than what may be needed is counseling, not rape.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Surprisingly I actually have a decent amount of reading comprehension. You said:

You seem to be unable to exercise it then.

You are saying that you have to go to work when you don’t want to, you have to parent if you don’t want to, and then imply that that same kind obligation should apply to sex (you should sacrifice even if you don’t want to). You don’t say that the partner who wants sex when the other doesn’t should consider making a sacrifice and forgoing sex for the sake of his or her partner, you imply the sacrifice should always be by the person who doesn’t want sex.

I never said or implied, “All of the time.” I said, “Most of the time.” There is a difference there. I also said people have to act like adults. The implication being that you need to find a happy medium with your spouse.

Instead of focusing on the implications that only exist in your head, try to focus on what was actually being said.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

If one of the spouses is always refusing than what may be needed is counseling, not rape.

Yes, agreed. In case I wasn’t clear, if there is a long period of refusal, what’s needed is a conversation/therapy. Never okay to proceed in the face of a ‘no.’

What I meant was that the refusing spouse still has some obligations to care for their spouse’s sexual fulfillment. They should reflect and say, “Huh. I seem to have no libido at all lately, and my spouse is probably feeling neglected/abandoned. I should probably see if I can figure out what’s going on.”

 

[edwest2]

Wisdom from Abigail Breslin, a 21 year old popular culture actress from New York City:

“you are not obligated
to have sex with someone
that you’re in a relationship with
dating is not consent
marriage is not consent”

So much is wrong with this. The world continues its path towards selfishness.

Dan Grelinger

The march of the Irrational continues.

Ed

 

[ChikaisHis]

While refusing sex can be done for sinful, selfish reasons…
rape is ALWAYS a sin, regardless of the reason. And rape is more than just physically forcing someone to have sex, it includes emotional, verbal and psychological manipulation as well.

 

[lmachine]

You seem to be unable to exercise it then.I never said or implied, “All of the time.” I said, “Most of the time.” There is a difference there. I also said people have to act like adults. The implication being that you need to find a happy medium with your spouse.

You’re right, I was technically incorrect. Thought and typed too quickly after being confronted with the horrifying proposition that someone should have sex when they don’t want to.

 

[THP]

You’re right, I was technically incorrect. Thought and typed too quickly after being confronted with the horrifying proposition that someone should have sex when they don’t want to.

I think we need to consider the difference between “don’t want to” and “not in the mood”. Not in the mood can change, often very quickly. Often a woman might not be “in the mood” but willing and loving still has sex with her husband and really enjoys it (with or without an orgasm). I think this is what everyone means by obligation.

There have been time my wife has woken me up from sleep to have sex. Obviously wasn’t in the mood because I was asleep but certainly didn’t upset me and was happy to oblige her.

If it has been a horrible day at home with the kids or she is sick or something its incumbent upon me to recognize this and not even try.

 

[lmachine]

I think we need to consider the difference between “don’t want to” and “not in the mood”. Not in the mood can change, often very quickly. Often a woman might not be “in the mood” but willing and loving still has sex with her husband and really enjoys it (with or without an orgasm). I think this is what everyone means by obligation.

If that’s what people mean by obligation than what they mean is it’s okay to go ahead with sex if your partner doesn’t want it because they might enjoy it.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Olympic gymnast Aly Raisman said she gives no heed to critics of her Sports Illustrated Swimsuit photo shoot – it’s something she expected. “I knew people were going to say that I wasn’t a good role model and all of this stuff,” Raisman, who posed topless in the magazine, told Motto. “I did the issue because I love my body. I can express myself in any way that I want. But that doesn’t give anyone the right to judge me. I think being a role model is about being a kind person.”

“It really made me realize women do not have to be modest in order to be respected,” Raisman added.

yahoo.com/gma/aly-raisman-topless-photo-shoot-women-not-modest-154906105–abc-news-celebrities.html

So much is wrong with this, where do I start…

 

[Mongo]

She has the right to express herself anyway she wants but no one has the right to judge her?

 

[TechieGuy]

“Two young roes” indeed!

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

She has the right to express herself anyway she wants but no one has the right to judge her?

Exactly what I thought. “I can judge you for judging me because I consider “judging others” to be wrong, but you can’t judge me for actions you consider wrong.” How can that NOT be hypocritical?

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Why would anyone in a loving marriage want to have intercourse with their spouse when their spouse said they didn’t want to at that time?

The answer to that question is “Why would anyone want to have sexual intercourse?”

Does the desire go away because a spouse does not want to? Not in my experience.

I will turn the question around to one that is more pertinent: “Why would anyone in a loving marriage want to say ‘no’ to a request for marital relations with their spouse if it was possible for them to do so (i.e. have relations)?”

Many have assumed that I am somehow justifying marital violence. I am not. I am suggesting that if both spouses were truly loving and unselfish, there would be no ‘no’s’ unless something serious prevented them from doing so. Just “not wanting to”, is not serious. It is selfish as it is focused on oneself, and not the spouse. Just like marital violence is.

 

[steve93]

What is wrong with the West? There used to be a thing called privacy and decency.
How does God expect us not to lust when you can’t check out a box of cereal without seeing a sensual magazine or stranger or whatnot?

 

[Sarcelle]

The answer to that question is “Why would anyone want to have sexual intercourse?”

Does the desire go away because a spouse does not want to? Not in my experience.

I will turn the question around to one that is more pertinent: “Why would anyone in a loving marriage want to say ‘no’ to a request for marital relations with their spouse if it was possible for them to do so (i.e. have relations)?”

Many have assumed that I am somehow justifying marital violence. I am not. I am suggesting that if both spouses were truly loving and unselfish, there would be no ‘no’s’ unless something serious prevented them from doing so. Just “not wanting to”, is not serious. It is selfish as it is focused on oneself, and not the spouse. Just like marital violence is.

Selfish or not, the issues at the root of the continual refusal for marital relations by a spouse needs to be rooted out, either by the couple themselves or with the aid of a counselor.

 

[GEddie]

She has the right to express herself anyway she wants but no one has the right to judge her?

What gives any of us the right to judge her?

 

[Rau]

But the Catholic Church teaches that for married couples, consent has already been given, and ‘no’ is withdrawal of consent, and a grave sin.

Consent that the relationship is now a sexual one. Not that one has become the sexual slave of the other. All the vows need to be considered - they are not independent, but each creates the context for the others.

 

[steve93]

Some ideas expressed here are pretty disturbing.
If I were married, the idea would never even cross by mind. The notion that one could rape his beloved wife is beyond disgusting. A Christian man is supposed to show his love for his wife to the point of imitiating our Saviors sacrifice of His own life.
Think more John Chistostym and less Muhammed.
A wife is a person made in the image of God, a person weaker than yourself, and a person you have vowed to love, cherish, and protect unconditionally, not a toy.

 

[jesucated]

The answer to that question is “Why would anyone want to have sexual intercourse?”

Does the desire go away because a spouse does not want to? Not in my experience.

I will turn the question around to one that is more pertinent: “Why would anyone in a loving marriage want to say ‘no’ to a request for marital relations with their spouse if it was possible for them to do so (i.e. have relations)?”

Many have assumed that I am somehow justifying marital violence. I am not. I am suggesting that if both spouses were truly loving and unselfish, there would be no ‘no’s’ unless something serious prevented them from doing so. Just “not wanting to”, is not serious. It is selfish as it is focused on oneself, and not the spouse. Just like marital violence is.

I would argue that saying that a spouse “just” not wanting to engaged in this way is not a sufficient or “serious” reason does advocate for a kind of violence. We need to be careful not to simply equate rape with physical force. As others on this thread have pointed out, rape may involve many kinds of coercion, including psychological or emotional. No has to mean no regardless of the reason, and a a person ought not try to beg, cajole, argue, etc. through that no to sate his or her own desires.