"Marriage is Not Consent"

[tafan]

I do not believe the 5th would be considered correct.
The Church does accept a married woman may “cooperate in evil”, if her non Catholic husband seeks condomised sex, without sinning. That likely holds for a lapsed Catholic husband as well.
Such is the seriousness with which the Church sees the gift of one’s body to one’s partner in the marriage vows.

I have read differing views on this exact point, I would tend to agree with you. It does seem that moral theologians differ on this.

Edited to add:
I think this misses the point. Yes, it may be ok to have sex even though the spouse is insisting on using birth control. I think that is your point. However, its not what is being discussed. The issue is if its reasonable to refuse sex in that scenario. And I would say it is.

 

[Xantippe]

Any spouse who approaches sex with a sense of “You’re morally obligated to have sex with me unless certain criteria are met” is making the request in an unreasonable and unloving manner. That approach is simply all wrong. If a spouse feels that rejected, there are probably far deeper issues going on than can be resolved with a citation of scripture and arguing about moral requirements.

That’s a very reasonable point.

 

[Xantippe]

Thank you.

As opposed to the mindset that “sex is a gift” and something they are obligated to do?

Now that you mention it, in what sense is sex a gift from spouse A to spouse B if spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter?

That’s not how gifts work.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree, but as mentioned, it extends beyond sex in theory.

There are times in a marriage people when you simply don’t feel like a lot of things. Acting loving, having quality time with your spouse, being affectionate, putting your spouses needs before yours in every case, etc.

Having kids definitely can kill the motivation to jump right into bed at every free moment, but are there areas in marriage the right to refuse does not apply?

Sure–your spouse is drowning and there’s a life preserver in your hands.

Do you toss it or not?

 

[tafan]

Now that you mention it, in what sense is sex a gift from spouse A to spouse B if spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter?

That’s not how gifts work.

Could you please stop saying things such as “spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter”? No one is making that point. A spouse can reasonably refuse sex.

Now, as to your question. The complete gift of a spouse to another is made at the time of marriage and it is a perpetual gift until death. A spouse freely and completely gives himself/herself to the other when they get married.

 

[Xantippe]

I will admit to finding this whole concept of “sacrificial sex” with a spouse rather bizarre. I think if a spouse is not enjoying sex, the other is doing something wrong and they need to work it out. Sex being a sacrifice? Its like saying: I don’t want to eat this candy bar, but since its lent I guess I will.

If you don’t get the idea that sometimes a spouse will wind up having sex when it’s something they really, really don’t feel like doing, I’m not sure what you’re doing in this conversation taking the side that you are.

That’s what we’re talking about–situations where one spouse really, really doesn’t want to do it and views it as a sacrifice that they do not want to undertake at this particular time.

The reason they are refusing is because they see it as a sacrifice or an inconvenience, not primarily a pleasant, nice thing.

I actually have used your candy bar example somewhat differently:

Let us imagine that sex is like chocolate. I really chocolate. If I ever turn down chocolate, it has to be because I have a good reason for doing so.

(But of course, some people just don’t like chocolate or sex at all, so the analogy doesn’t work for them.)

 

[tafan]

If you don’t get the idea that sometimes a spouse will wind up having sex when it’s something they really, really don’t feel like doing, I’m not sure what you’re doing in this conversation taking the side that you are.

No, I understand that spouses agree to have sex at times when they don’t exactly feel like it. What I don’t understand is how that ends up being a sacrifice. But perhaps I just have a little more rigorous definition of sacrifice than “doing something I really like even though I don’t quite feel like it right now”.

Let us imagine that sex is like chocolate. I really chocolate. If I ever turn down chocolate, it has to be because I have a good reason for doing so.

Fair enough, so my point is, since you really like chocolate, how can eating it ever be considered a sacrifice?

Seriously, its just seems like the wrong mindset about sex, regardless how one feels at any point in time. Sex is a really big part of a marriage, I think one is treading on thin ice when one starts telling oneself it is a sacrifice.

 

[Xantippe]

Could you please stop saying things such as “spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter”? No one is making that point. A spouse can reasonably refuse sex.

Now, as to your question. The complete gift of a spouse to another is made at the time of marriage and it is a perpetual gift until death. A spouse freely and completely gives himself/herself to the other when they get married.

When I said “Now that you mention it, in what sense is sex a gift from spouse A to spouse B if spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter? That’s not how gifts work.” I was adding to the back and forth where first Elena said “By obligation in the negative sense,I mean if a wife or husband takes on the mindset that “sex is a chore” and something they are obligated to do.”

and then Vico replied “Thank you. As opposed to the mindset that “sex is a gift” and something they are obligated to do?”

So, that might not be your language, but it was Vico’s language.

I think there is a problem here in that a “gift” suggests some degree of freedom in the giver, whereas a “chore” is an obligation, so “obligatory gift” is a bit of an oxymoron, right up there with “mandatory volunteering.”

If the gift is only made at marriage, then I guess we don’t get to ever call freely offered marital intimacies a gift? That doesn’t seem right.

 

[Vico]

Now that you mention it, in what sense is sex a gift from spouse A to spouse B if spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter?

That’s not how gifts work.

For marriage, the gift is freely given and is charitible, and the obligation is a moral obligation.

 

[Rau]

No, I understand that spouses agree to have sex at times when they don’t exactly feel like it. What I don’t understand is how that ends up being a sacrifice. But perhaps I just have a little more rigorous definition of sacrifice than “doing something I really like even though I don’t quite feel like it right now”.

Remarks such as this suggest your life experiences are in the early stages.

Fair enough, so my point is, since you really like chocolate, how can eating it ever be considered a sacrifice?.

Does this really require a response…or can you see the answer yourself newidea with a minute’s thought?

 

[tafan]

let’s continue your summary of the conversation. We will start from where you left off:

and then Vico replied “Thank you. As opposed to the mindset that “sex is a gift” and something they are obligated to do?”

Then you said

Now that you mention it, in what sense is sex a gift from spouse A to spouse B if spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter?

To which I said:

tafan:

Could you please stop saying things such as “spouse A has no choice whatsoever in the matter”? No one is making that point.

To which you replied:
=Xantippe:

So, that might not be your language, but it was Vico’s language.

You need to learn how to have an honest conversation. I have now reviewed Vico’s posts, and no where did he use that language, no where did he ever imply a spouse had no choice whatsoever in the matter. You now explicitly claim he did.
You now owe him an apology for explicitly misrepresenting what he has said.

Of course, that is happening a lot on this thread. And everyone seems to think it is normal behavior. It is wrong behavior.

 

[tafan]

Remarks such as this suggest your life experiences are in the early stages.

Does this really require a response…or can you see the answer yourself newidea with a minute’s thought?

No, I can’t. Go ahead and please enlighten me, perhaps due to my older age, my mind does not work fast enough.

ETA: I stand by my point. It seems to me very unhealthy to ever look upon the sexual relationship with a spouse as a sacrifice. Actually, the word bizarre keeps popping up in my mind.

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

Sure–your spouse is drowning and there’s a life preserver in your hands.

Do you toss it or not?

Of course. But conversation, sex, quality time, and most things I listed are not about saving someone from dying.

And I wouldn’t treat sex within marriage as a gift any more than the other things listed. They are all part of the package in saying “I do.” I would never pressure my wife nor she me, but that applies to most aspects of marriage, not just sex, correct?

 

[Walking_Home]

Any spouse who approaches sex with a sense of “You’re morally obligated to have sex with me unless certain criteria are met” is making the request in an unreasonable and unloving manner. That approach is simply all wrong. If a spouse feels that rejected, there are probably far deeper issues going on than can be resolved with a citation of scripture and arguing about moral requirements.

I would say any spouse who tries to guilt their spouse into sex is using coercion to get sex, damaging their marriage, their sex life, and is partially the cause for the other spouse’s lack of interest. And while it doesn’t involve the same level of violence as physically forcing and restraining your spouse into it, it’s a rape in the sense of acknowledging that while a spouse may not hit a spouse, they may verbally abuse their spouse.

Overall, change your approach to sex and if the problem persists, seek therapy because there’s some greater need going on.

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Yes – agree.

 

[babochka]

But the Catholic Church teaches that for married couples, consent has already been given, and ‘no’ is withdrawal of consent, and a grave sin.

Forcing yourself on an unwilling spouse is a grave sin. And a crime.

 

[tafan]

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Yes – agree.

Yes, but it’s a complete straw-man argument. No one has taken an opposing position on thus thread.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course. But conversation, sex, quality time, and most things I listed are not about saving someone from dying.

**And I wouldn’t treat sex within marriage as a gift any more than the other things listed. ** They are all part of the package in saying “I do.” I would never pressure my wife nor she me, but that applies to most aspects of marriage, not just sex, correct?

So, there’s no need for gratitude?

That’s kind of bad.

 

[tafan]

So, there’s no need for gratitude?

That’s kind of bad.

Help me out this time, going back and reviewing this thread can get tedious. Where did Wedge Antilles say there is no need for gratitude?

 

[Xantippe]

tafan,

Wedge Antilles said: “Of course. But conversation, sex, quality time, and most things I listed are not about saving someone from dying. And I wouldn’t treat sex within marriage as a gift any more than the other things listed. They are all part of the package in saying “I do.” I would never pressure my wife nor she me, but that applies to most aspects of marriage, not just sex, correct?”

I replied: “So, there’s no need for gratitude? That’s kind of bad.”

I’d make the argument that **all **of those things are gifts, and that all of them ought to evoke gratitude, and that gratitude is an essential part of the ecology of a good marriage.

 

[tafan]

tafan,

Wedge Antilles said: “Of course. But conversation, sex, quality time, and most things I listed are not about saving someone from dying. And I wouldn’t treat sex within marriage as a gift any more than the other things listed. They are all part of the package in saying “I do.” I would never pressure my wife nor she me, but that applies to most aspects of marriage, not just sex, correct?”

I replied: “So, there’s no need for gratitude? That’s kind of bad.”

I’d make the argument that **all **of those things are gifts, and that all of them ought to evoke gratitude, and that gratitude is an essential part of the ecology of a good marriage.

So you think gratitude is only needed for gifts? . That’s strange, I thank people all the time for things that are not gifts. Most people do.
I too disagree with the statement that these things, including sex, are not gifts. We give ourselves in marriage, so it’s always a gift. But I wouldn’t read into his comment that gratitude is not needed.