Marriage, kinds of sex when not able to have children

[MikeB]

Bobby Jim:

I would say beware of taking a legalistic, mechanistic approach to this, e.g. “the church says every act should be open to life, but the couple is 100% infertile due to surgery, so there can be no conception, so then anything goes!”

Whatever the couple does sexually should be in keeping with the dignity of the couple, which for example would preclude doing anything violent or demeaning or unnatural. Now I think the church is intentionally a little vague in setting out rules for exactly what you can and can’t do, when, where, and how depending on your age, fertility, etc. Context and intention are very important… is oral sex something that is agreed on mutually, and performed and received with love, and leads to a strengthening of the marital bond?

I’m not sure that it’s 100% wrong if occasionally it doesn’t culminate in normal intercourse (with all due respect to “Good News About Sex and Marriage”). It’s a fine line, but I don’t think it’s the church’s intention to specify that the male ejaculation itself and the sperm contained therein are what’s sacred about the sex act, and so long as that ends up in the right place then everything’s fine.

Nor should any other specific act or body part be the focus - it has to be the whole persons, and the sacramental bond that unites the couple, that is the focus.

Sorry if that makes things more confusing…

This is more in line with what I was questioning. If both partners agree to this, then is it wrong, esp if the act is mutually satisfing.

 

[Island_Oak]

Ignatius:

Your unstated assumption is that between the vasectomy and her hysterectomy pregnancy will not occur even with the marriage act. If you allow for the possibility of a miraculous pregnancy, the answer becomes evident.

I hope this clarifies the reasoning.

I’m sorry but these threads detailing exactly what position, act , stimulation, etc…are allowable in the marital bed have just moved from tedious to ridiculous!!!

 

[1ke]

MikeB.:

This is more in line with what I was questioning. If both partners agree to this, then is it wrong, esp if the act is mutually satisfing.

Mike, Each sex act between husband and wife must be objectively unitive and procreative in order to be an act properly ordered toward God and a renewal of the marriage Sacrament.

The focus is on whether it is OBJECTIVELY procreative in every act, not whether it is ACTUALLY procreative. Meaning, conception does not have to result, but no action can be taken before, during, or after the act that is objectively contraceptive in nature. Masturbation and oral sex without intercourse are inherently contraceptive acts as they are an act “during” that specifically twarts the sex act’s natural end. Even though the woman is infertile due to surgery, the sex act that does not result in intercourse with normal completion is an act that is disordered and therefore is never permissable no matter what physical condition the man or woman is in.

Sexual intercourse is the renewal of the Sacrament and is an act that always includes the man, woman, and God. Other types of acts should ALWAYS be in anticipation of intercourse, not IN PLACE OF intercourse.

 

[Katie1723]

Island Oak:

I’m sorry but these threads detailing exactly what position, act , stimulation, etc…are allowable in the marital bed have just moved from tedious to ridiculous!!!

I was just thinking the same thing! No wonder some of us are so paranoid about sex.
~ Kathy ~

 

[felra]

Katie1723:

I was just thinking the same thing! No wonder some of us are so paranoid about sex.
~ Kathy ~

Its called if you want to “push the envelope” in what is morally licit, then by all means, be mature, accept responsibility for the awesome gift of sexually God has entrusted to us pitiful human beings, and look before you leap. No room for childish paranoia about our sexually and sexual expression. Now go have fun you sacramentally married Catholic couples, but geeeez, do it right! (and I’m not talking technique).

 

[MikeB]

Island Oak:

I’m sorry but these threads detailing exactly what position, act , stimulation, etc…are allowable in the marital bed have just moved from tedious to ridiculous!!!

Island Oak, this was an honest question about sin from a husband that did not want to be in sin. I did not have the answer for this couple and thought I would get some imput. It was not meant to be tedious or ridiculous. Maybe like in the case of a train wreck, if it offends you then do not stop and look.

 

[MikeB]

1ke:

Mike, Each sex act between husband and wife must be objectively unitive and procreative in order to be an act properly ordered toward God and a renewal of the marriage Sacrament.

The focus is on whether it is OBJECTIVELY procreative in every act, not whether it is ACTUALLY procreative. Meaning, conception does not have to result, but no action can be taken before, during, or after the act that is objectively contraceptive in nature. Masturbation and oral sex without intercourse are inherently contraceptive acts as they are an act “during” that specifically twarts the sex act’s natural end. Even though the woman is infertile due to surgery, the sex act that does not result in intercourse with normal completion is an act that is disordered and therefore is never permissable no matter what physical condition the man or woman is in.

Sexual intercourse is the renewal of the Sacrament and is an act that always includes the man, woman, and God. Other types of acts should ALWAYS be in anticipation of intercourse, not IN PLACE OF intercourse.

Thanks! One of the best answers I have heard

 

[space_ghost]

MikeB.:

I had a moral question come up that I do not have the answer for and was hoping to get some insights from all the “experts”. What is allowed as far as sex within the marriage when the husband had a vasectomy years before returning to the Church and recently the wife had to have all of her reproductive organs removed. They are both in their 50’s. I know that the Church teaches that sex has to be open for procreation, yet with this case the wife cannot have children, so how does this play out as far as “no spilling the seed”. Can this couple practice oral sex etc.

…follow your heart… Motive, intention… you can’t help what you can’t help… if you don’t complete for reasons out of your control you can’t hardly be help culpable… follow your conscience, and speak to your priest if you still have a question…

…bottom line, speak to a priest…

 

[p.e.driver]

And in the former case, I’m not sure that it’s 100% wrong if occasionally it doesn’t culminate in normal intercourse (with all due respect to “Good News About Sex and Marriage”). It’s a fine line, but I don’t think it’s the church’s intention to specify that the male ejaculation itself and the sperm contained therein are what’s sacred about the sex act, and so long as that ends up in the right place then everything’s fine.

I will do my best not to answer this with offensive language… but it needs to be said:

I isn’t just about “planting the seed in the right place”. It is also about the orgasm. Just as it is immoral to give a wife an orgasm without intending to complete the act, it goes the same for the male… those are just different forms of masterbation but one in the same thing. This feeling is the conjugal gift from God to be experienced by husband to wife together. Even if both don’t experience it, they should be “together” and experiencing it as one person.

 

[surfinpure]

I searched through the Couple to Couple League site but couldn’t find anything specific about the morality of oral sex within a completed marital act. Can anyone give me a direct link?

 

[LittleDeb]

I haven’t seen a link on the ccli website but I remember something in the textbook. It was near the part that was tactfully trying to explain the difference between oral sex and foreplay in the morals section. I remember giggling a little at how they seemed shocked to discover that there was a question in the first place.

I think that a lot of the questions really do boil down to accurate working definitions of these terms.

Procreation- for creation; open to life.
Reproduction-to produce (in this case a life, a photocopy is also a form of reproduction.)

oral sex- a contraceptive act involving the reproductive organs used to replace sexual intercourse.
foreplay-a procreative act involving the reproductive organs culminating in sexual intercourse.

As someone with a very checkered past whose reproductive organs are somewhat broken, there is a HUGE difference between oral sex and foreplay.

Oral sex is demeaning and lonely. Foreplay has dignity and unity.

 

[1ke]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

I searched through the Couple to Couple League site but couldn’t find anything specific about the morality of oral sex within a completed marital act. Can anyone give me a direct link?

I doubt it is on the website. It is in the books produced by Couple to Couple league (Kippley) as well as in Christopher West’s books.

 

[surfinpure]

LittleDeb:

I haven’t seen a link on the ccli website but I remember something in the textbook. It was near the part that was tactfully trying to explain the difference between oral sex and foreplay in the morals section. I remember giggling a little at how they seemed shocked to discover that there was a question in the first place.

I think that a lot of the questions really do boil down to accurate working definitions of these terms.

Procreation- for creation; open to life.
Reproduction-to produce (in this case a life, a photocopy is also a form of reproduction.)

oral sex- a contraceptive act involving the reproductive organs used to replace sexual intercourse.
foreplay-a procreative act involving the reproductive organs culminating in sexual intercourse.

As someone with a very checkered past whose reproductive organs are somewhat broken, there is a HUGE difference between oral sex and foreplay.

Oral sex is demeaning and lonely. Foreplay has dignity and unity.

But what about from husband to wife, if the wife is unable to “benefit” from coitus?

 

[surfinpure]

1ke:

I doubt it is on the website. It is in the books produced by Couple to Couple league (Kippley) as well as in Christopher West’s books.

Thanks. Perhaps I’ll have to order these. I doubt the local library would carry them.

 

[cheddarsox]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

But what about from husband to wife, if the wife is unable to “benefit” from coitus?

I suspect you will hear said wife praising God!

cheddar

 

[itsjustdave1988]

MikeB.:

The reason for the inability to have children is not as a birth control device but due to female complications that demanded the surgery.

…then your conjugal acts are morally licit, according to Catholic moral theology, so long as your human acts do not thwart God’s intentions. How did God intend you to conduct yourself in conjugal acts? You may not knowingly and willfully “spill your seed” anywhere other than where God intended, even if you’re shootin’ blanks.

 

[LittleDeb]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

But what about from husband to wife, if the wife is unable to “benefit” from coitus?

“oral sex- a contraceptive act involving the reproductive organs used to replace sexual intercourse.
foreplay-a procreative act involving the reproductive organs culminating in sexual intercourse.”

The operative word in the definition of oral sex is “replace” sexual intercourse.

I think some might get hung up on the term “fore”-play. It is a term to describe a stage of sexual intercourse. I wish there were a better term. I am called by many friends, the semantics police. It is so much easier to converse if the terms mean the same things to all the people involved.

 

[Windmill]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

I searched through the Couple to Couple League site but couldn’t find anything specific about the morality of oral sex within a completed marital act. Can anyone give me a direct link?

Marital Sexuality: Moral Considerations

It’s about halfway down the order page…

I actually gave this to a solid Catholic couple on their wedding day. It’s a good pamphlet.

 

[surfinpure]

Marital Sexuality: Moral Considerations

It’s about halfway down the order page…

I actually gave this to a solid Catholic couple on their wedding day. It’s a good pamphlet.

Thanks for the reference. I just tried to order it, but they charge $4.00 for shipping, which is rather high for a small, 15 cent pamphlet! I’ve emailed them about this. If there truly is no other way to get this information then I will cough up the $4.00, but some part of me rebels at the idea for the moment.

 

[martino]

1ke:

Mike, Each sex act between husband and wife must be objectively unitive and procreative in order to be an act properly ordered toward God and a renewal of the marriage Sacrament.

The focus is on whether it is OBJECTIVELY procreative in every act, not whether it is ACTUALLY procreative. Meaning, conception does not have to result, but no action can be taken before, during, or after the act that is objectively contraceptive in nature. Masturbation and oral sex without intercourse are inherently contraceptive acts as they are an act “during” that specifically twarts the sex act’s natural end. Even though the woman is infertile due to surgery, the sex act that does not result in intercourse with normal completion is an act that is disordered and therefore is never permissable no matter what physical condition the man or woman is in.

Sexual intercourse is the renewal of the Sacrament and is an act that always includes the man, woman, and God. Other types of acts should ALWAYS be in anticipation of intercourse, not IN PLACE OF intercourse.

Just in case anyone missed it, this is the answer to the original question.