Marriage validity question

[nebula]

Hi guys,

I don’t know if this is the place to post this or not, but I’ll give it a try here. Here it goes:

I was baptized a Catholic as an infant but subsequently received no religious instruction. Later, I became a Mormon. As a Mormon, I met my husband and we got married civilly. Now I am attending RCIA and considering whether or not I think the RCC is the church of Christ. This is our first and only marriage for us both.

The question is: is my marriage valid?

 

[DavidFilmer]

The question is: is my marriage valid?

If your husband is also baptized, then yes.

However, your marriage was conducted outside the norms prescribed by the Catholic Church. Notably, your marriage lacks the blessing of the Church (and, for your marriage, you want all the blessings you can get, right???)

Once you are received, you should ask your priest/deacon to bless your marriage. This will be done in a ceremony which very much resembles a “renewal of vows.” It is quite commonplace.

 

[eva6206213]

i agree with DavidFilmer

 

[tee_eff_em]

If your husband is also baptized, then yes.

Baptism does not pertain to the validity of marriage.

tee

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Valid is such a poorly chosen word. You marriage is either real, and thus valid, or it is not, only you, your husband, and God would know that. Your marriage is not recognized by the Catholic Church. Your marriage can be recognized by the Church by some paperwork, and probably a marriage class or two to assure you are in agreement with what marriage really is. Technically you are not allowed to complete RCIA until the marriage paperwork clears* however many parish have allowed similar cases to be completed.

• Technically you could return to celibacy and complete RCIA, then do the marriage paperwork and return to married bless

 

[puzzleannie]

second poster is wrong.
baptism neither validates nor invalidates a marriage. What baptism does is make the marriage sacramental, if both parties are baptized and enter into a valid marriage (or if the parties to a valid marriage are baptized afterward, the marriage automatically becomes sacramental).

A person who has been baptized Catholic is bound by the form of Catholic canon law regarding marriage: witnessed by a priest or deacon, in a Catholic church, may not marry a non-Catholic, of age etc. Most of these laws can be dispensed by the bishop with permission.

Everyone is bound by universal divine law on marriage: one man & one woman, marriage is for life, no divorce, no incest etc.

To determine if an individual’s marriage is valid the facts must be submitted to the canon law tribunal for investigation. There are so many variables that it would be a waste of time to offer a definitive statement here.

The key in OP’s case is whether or not she formally defected from the Catholic faith of her baptism, and just because she became Mormon, that is not a given. Her previous lack of catechesis, the fact that she did not complete her Christian initiation, are also factors. She should have an in depth interview with her Catholic pastor on the topic for his guidance on her specific situation.

If she was in fact Catholic when she married a non-Catholic civilly (or in a Mormon ceremony) that marriage would be invalid due to lack of form. If she was formally Mormon, assuming all other conditions required for a valid marriage were in place, the marriage is valid. that however is only one of the factors to be considered, so as I say she should see her pastor.

Every candidate should have such an interview with the pastor soon after beginning the RCIA journey precisely to establish such facts, and it should never be delayed.

 

[nebula]

Here’s another thing- Mormon baptisms are not considered valid because they are not in the trinitarian formulation. Hence, my husband is not considered baptized.

Here’s the other thing- I formally became a Mormon. I have a Mormon baptismal certificate, I was confirmed, and I went through a Mormon endowment ceremony vowing my loyalty to that church. To say I did not formally become a Mormon when I have a series of certificates to that effect would be frankly bizarre.

Given the fact that I formally entered Mormonism my understanding is that equates to my having formally rejected Catholicism (although I never even considered myself a Catholic n my life…) before I ever got married and so my marriage should be valid.

I’ve never met with a pastor and no one has mentioned it. M aybe because I’ve entered the RCIA process as someone uncertain to whether or not I will accept the Catholic church as God’s church or not. Perhaps the RCIA director is waiting for a decision on my end. Who knows. Obviously this matter has to factor into my decision for no other reason than I would question the validity of a church which questions the validity of a marriage between two people who were virgins on their wedding day.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Here’s another thing- Mormon baptisms are not considered valid because they are not in the trinitarian formulation. Hence, my husband is not considered baptized.

Here’s the other thing- I formally became a Mormon. I have a Mormon baptismal certificate, I was confirmed, and I went through a Mormon endowment ceremony vowing my loyalty to that church. To say I did not formally become a Mormon when I have a series of certificates to that effect would be frankly bizarre.

Given the fact that I formally entered Mormonism

my understanding

is that equates to my having formally rejected Catholicism (although I never even considered myself a Catholic n my life…) before I ever got married and so my marriage should be valid.

I’ve never met with a pastor and no one has mentioned it. M aybe because I’ve entered the RCIA process as someone uncertain to whether or not I will accept the Catholic church as God’s church or not. Perhaps the RCIA director is waiting for a decision on my end. Who knows. Obviously this matter has to factor into my decision for no other reason than

I would question the validity

of a church which questions the validity of a marriage between two people who were virgins on their wedding day.

Well, if you are going to rely solely on your own judgments, understandings and feelings, why are you asking the question here? You must already know the answer, and no one here can read your mind.

But I tell you: Should you desire to return to the Catholic faith, it will be the Church’s judgments and discrenment that will answer your question, not your own. And no one* (or: certainly precious few) on this public forum of relative strangers, educated as some may be, is able answer your question. If you wish to know the Church’s answer, start by talking to the pastor of the place where you will be receiving instruction. A humbling exercise in submission to lawful authority.

(* And least of all: yours truly)

tee

 

[nebula]

Well, if you are going to rely solely on your own judgments, understandings and feelings, why are you asking the question here? You must already know the answer, and no one here can read your mind.

But I tell you: Should you desire to return to the Catholic faith, it will be the Church’s judgments and discrenment that will answer your question, not your own. And no one* (or: certainly precious few) on this public forum of relative strangers, educated as some may be, is able answer your question. If you wish to know the Church’s answer, start by talking to the pastor of the place where you will be receiving instruction. A humbling exercise in submission to lawful authority.

(* And least of all: yours truly)

tee

That’s cute tee. You didnt’ think that maybe, just maybe, even the intimation that my lawful and faithful marriage with my husband is considered invalid by anyone absolutely upsetting? If you don’t know the answer, that’s fine, say “I don’t know”. I don’t need a lecture from you. My point is that I’m still examining the church. I haven’t decided if I think it’s Christ’s church or not. Everything will go into my final judgement, certainly the anxiety this issue has provoked will be a part of it. Why shouldn’t it?

 

[tee_eff_em]

That’s cute tee.

It was not intended to be.

You didnt’ think that maybe, just maybe, even the intimation that my lawful and faithful marriage with my husband is considered invalid by anyone absolutely upsetting?

If “even the intimation” is going to be “absolutely” upsetting, you are going to have to decide how to deal with that, and whether it is worth the upset. For goodness’s sake, you yourself *posed *the question, both in the thread title and the OP:

The question is: is my marriage valid?

If you did not wish anyone to ponder the question, you should not have brought it up.

If you don’t know the answer, that’s fine, say “I don’t know”. I don’t need a lecture from you. My point is that I’m still examining the church. I haven’t decided if I think it’s Christ’s church or not. Everything will go into my final judgement, certainly the anxiety this issue has provoked will be a part of it. Why shouldn’t it?

I do not know whether your marriage is valid (but unless or until it were demonstrated otherwise, I would defend it as such). Anyone here who may be qualified to give an authoritative answer would surely need more information than perhaps ought be exchanged in a public internet forum. I further suspect that any such person should be reluctant to post an answer in the same public internet forum. :twocents:

I reiterate: Talk to the pastor of the place where you are taking instruction.

tee

 

[nebula]

It was not intended to be.

If “even the intimation” is going to be “absolutely” upsetting, you are going to have to decide how to deal with that, and whether it is worth the upset. For goodness’s sake, you yourself *posed *the question, both in the thread title and the OP:

If you did not wish anyone to ponder the question, you should not have brought it up.

I do not know whether your marriage is valid (but unless or until it were demonstrated otherwise, I would defend it as such). Anyone here who may be qualified to give an authoritative answer would surely need more information than perhaps ought be exchanged in a public internet forum. I further suspect that any such person should be reluctant to post an answer in the same public internet forum. :twocents:

I reiterate: Talk to the pastor of the place where you are taking instruction.

tee

I don’t mind anyone ‘pondering’ the question, but it was meant as a serious question. If you don’t have a serious, charitable answer, I’m not interested. The reason I posted this here is simple: the first time I knew anything about the validity of my marriage even being questionable is because I was roaming around this forum yesterday and ran into the issue. I then submitted my question to Ask an Apologist, where I encountered guidelines for posting to THAT forum which suggested posting to other forums if a quicker answer is desired.

I’m fine that people don’t have a firm answer. I don’t expect everyone to be an expert. But fact of the matter is my RCIA director is gone for the week, I have zero idea who my pastor is supposed to be, so I’d like some kind of insight into this question because as you can imagine, it IS upsetting.

THere you have it tee. I’m sure you’re used to straightforward debate on this particular forum and I understand that mode of communciation, but that’s not what I’m looking for with this thread.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… You didnt’ think that maybe, just maybe, even the intimation that my lawful and faithful marriage with my husband is considered invalid by anyone absolutely upsetting? …

Remember your marriage is a covenant with God and husband, so lets keep that intact

…Perhaps the RCIA director is waiting for a decision on my end… …

Hard to imagine, more likely is the director does not fully know or does not understand the complication.

Whether your husband has any interest in converting is a factor however you can re-align with the Catholic Church either way. This will not be a 5 minute process. You have to repent, and receive your additional sacraments which must include a marriage dispensation plus a marriage convalidation or Radical Santion(used if you husband does not care for the Catholic Church)

Hope that helps

 

[tee_eff_em]

I don’t mind anyone ‘pondering’ the question, but it was meant as a serious question. If you don’t have a serious, charitable answer, I’m not interested.

I have given the most serious, charitable, and accurate answer you are likely to receive in this forum, and I shall repeat: Talk to the pastor of the place where you are receiving instruction.

Where are you taking instruction that is not associated with a parish? A pastor is the priest charged with the care of a parish.

I suppose it could be an oratory, monastery, friary, or similar, in which case he may be known by another title, but someone is in charge there.

tee

 

[Philthy]

The question is: is my marriage valid?

Valid according to whom???
It is valid according to the state.
It is valid according to the Mormon Church.
It may be valid according to the Catholic Church.
It may be valid according to God - no one here can answer that for you.

Worst case scenario? You wish to become Catholic and the Catholic Church does not recognize your marriage as valid. In this worst case scenario you would need to complete RCIA, enter the Church and have your marriage validated.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Nebula - God bless you. It is obvious to me from your posts that there a few things you’re still confused about regarding the Church. I’m wondering if your husband is willing to join you in RCIA, and what the priest running that group has told you do. I’ll pray for you both. Hang in there. You could be married in a very short amount of time.

Peace,

Gail

 

[nebula]

tee, not really, everyone else has given me an answer without the attitude. I told you, I don’t know who the pastor even is. Obviously at some point I’ll talk to him, but in the meantime I wanted some idea as to what’s going on now. Hence the forum.

Thanks Gail, and everyone else. Sounds like there may be a complication I need to be aware of.

 

[puzzleannie]

I think you are probably right, that the person you have contacted or who is running your RCIA program may be waiting to see if you decide to continue, and will then refer you to the priest or deacon or other designated person for an interview to discuss your own situation. I try never to go into these issues, especially marriage, in the class because it is seldom appropriate, and don’t want the risk of forcing people to share personal information. On the other hand, I don’t want to flood people with a lot of info about marriage etc. that may not be relevant to them right at the beginning.

Why not tell this person that the process has raised questions in your mind about your marriage and ask her to help you arrange an appointment with your priest. As I say, the info you get here will be of limited usefulness to a specific case. Why not use the chance to set your mind at rest, and to get to know the pastor? forgot to say before, welcome home, no matter how long it takes to get from the front steps through the front door.

 

[nebula]

I think you are probably right, that the person you have contacted or who is running your RCIA program may be waiting to see if you decide to continue, and will then refer you to the priest or deacon or other designated person for an interview to discuss your own situation. I try never to go into these issues, especially marriage, in the class because it is seldom appropriate, and don’t want the risk of forcing people to share personal information. On the other hand, I don’t want to flood people with a lot of info about marriage etc. that may not be relevant to them right at the beginning.

Why not tell this person that the process has raised questions in your mind about your marriage and ask her to help you arrange an appointment with your priest. As I say, the info you get here will be of limited usefulness to a specific case. Why not use the chance to set your mind at rest, and to get to know the pastor? forgot to say before, welcome home, no matter how long it takes to get from the front steps through the front door.

Thanks annie. I think that’s true because I’ve only gone twice so far and expressed my intentions as checking things out. I bet if I said I was thinking about making a firmer commitment things would go a little deeper that way. Now I’m kinda nervous about it. I wonder if I should let it go until I do decide if I want to go further, and then go from there, now I’m worried that if it turns out my marriage isn’t valid to the Catholic church it might prematurely turn me off…

It’s hard to know what to do always. I appreciate the advice.

 

[kevangreen]

tee, not really, everyone else has given me an answer without the attitude. I told you, I don’t know who the pastor even is. Obviously at some point I’ll talk to him, but in the meantime I wanted some idea as to what’s going on now. Hence the forum.

Thanks Gail, and everyone else. Sounds like there may be a complication I need to be aware of.

Good questions you have. Let me tell you about myself.
My name is kevan and I am catholic and 100% of my family in 2 countries (US and Ireland) are too. I got involved with a mormon from ok. Her dad use to be a catholic as well but the mom got him into mormons and such. I thought of becoming mormon before i learned the history of the 2 churches. one having no evidence outside of its “Restored gospel” The other having the backing of most of the worlds historians. The question is this?
It is not who is better, because mormons and catholic are both good people. It is do we allow ourselves to be happy alot and go to many church functions and have people coming to your door all the time and believe in the TRUE church. Or do we follow a gospel that was conceived by Jesus christ and started by those who were at his side.

2Cor. 11:1-9 This talks about mormons and such, it seems jesus knew they were goin to happen before they actually did.
He calls smith a “super apostle” and not to listen to his
lies and such

 

[Seatuck]

Here’s another thing- Mormon baptisms are not considered valid because they are not in the trinitarian formulation. Hence, my husband is not considered baptized.

Here’s the other thing- I formally became a Mormon. I have a Mormon baptismal certificate, I was confirmed, and I went through a Mormon endowment ceremony vowing my loyalty to that church. To say I did not formally become a Mormon when I have a series of certificates to that effect would be frankly bizarre.

Given the fact that I formally entered Mormonism my understanding is that equates to my having formally rejected Catholicism (although I never even considered myself a Catholic n my life…) before I ever got married and so my marriage should be valid.

I’ve never met with a pastor and no one has mentioned it. M aybe because I’ve entered the RCIA process as someone uncertain to whether or not I will accept the Catholic church as God’s church or not. Perhaps the RCIA director is waiting for a decision on my end. Who knows. Obviously this matter has to factor into my decision for no other reason than I would question the validity of a church which questions the validity of a marriage between two people who were virgins on their wedding day.

This is going to require a decision by the marriage tribunal of your diocese most likely. You should meet with the pastor to discuss this so he can call for assistance. Usually when someone is baptized Catholic then the person is required to follow church law on marriage. In your case you were not properly instructed and then you joined another religion by a formal act. It complicates things. The church has recently issued a document stating that in order to leave the church by a formal act a letter must be written to a Bishop. So it is unclear at this point to any of us how the church would act based on your ignorance of the faith , when you make your vow to the morman church etc.