Marriage validity question

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this post is also wrong, if you are still married to your first husband the marriage tribunal does not enter into this. Please see your pastor and get the facts straight for your own situation, this thread is only going to confuse the issue. In general in my experience marriage issues are far easier to resolve than they first appear.
 
tee, not really, everyone else has given me an answer without the attitude. I told you, I don’t know who the pastor even is. Obviously at some point I’ll talk to him, but in the meantime I wanted some idea as to what’s going on now. Hence the forum.

Thanks Gail, and everyone else. Sounds like there may be a complication I need to be aware of.
I have obviously expressed myself poorly, and I apologize. Mea culpa.
Please forgive me.

tee
 
I have obviously expressed myself poorly, and I apologize. Mea culpa.
Please forgive me.

tee
tee-- of course! It was just a misunderstanding :). Thanks for responding and giving me your opinion in the first place.
 
Thanks seatuck and annie. I was hoping manybe I’d get lucky and someone would be familiar with my situation but it sounds like I’m just going to have to wait it out to see.
 
Dear Nebula, I hope you aren’t further confused by some of the replys. The question of validity relates properly to a Sacramental union between you and your husband. While you are strictly speaking married in a civil sense, you haven’t yet received a Sacrament. Where there is no priest there is no Sacrament. If you and your hubby remain in RCIA, etc. I’m sure that you’ll be able to get married Sacramentally. It is called a Nuptial Mass.

Here’s some help: "The present rules for a nuptial Mass are; first, that it may not be celebrated in the closed time for marriages, that is from Advent Sunday till after the octave of the Epiphany and from Ash Wednesday till after Low Sunday. During these times no reference to a marriage may be made in Mass; if people wish to be married then they must be content with the little service in the Ritual, without music or other solemnities. This is what is meant by the rubric: "claudun tur nuptiarum solemnia “; it is spoken of usually as the closed season. During the rest of the year the nuptial Mass may be said at a wedding any day except Sundays and feasts of obligation, doubles of the first and second class and such privileged ferias and octaves as exclude a double. It may not displace the Rogation Mass at which the procession is made, nor may it displace at least one Requiem on All Souls day. On these occasions its place is taken by the Mass of the day to which commemorations of the nuptial Mass are added in the last place and at which the blessings are inserted in their place. The nuptial blessing is considered as part of the nuptial Mass. It may never be given except during this Mass or during a Mass that replaces it (and commemorates it) when it cannot be said, as above. The nuptial Mass and blessing may be celebrated after the closed time for people married during it. So nuptial Mass and blessing always go together; either involves the other. One Mass and blessing may be held for several pairs of married people, who must all be present. The forms, however, remain in the singular as they are in the Missal. The Mass and blessing may not be held if the woman has already received this blessing in a former marriage. This rule only affects the woman, for whom the blessing is more specially intended (see the prayer Deus qui potestate). It must be understood exactly as stated. A former marriage without this blessing, or the fact that children had been born before the marriage, is no hindrance. Nor may the nuptial Mass and blessing be held in cases of mixed marriages (mixta religio) inspite of any dispensation. According to the Con stitution “Etsi sanctissimus Dominus” of Pius IX (15 November, 1858), mixed marriages must be celebrated outside the church (in England and America this is understood as meaning outside the sanctuary and choir), without the blessing of the ring or of the spouses without any ecclesiastical rite or vestment, without proclamation of banns.”
newadvent.org/cathen/10005a.htm

God bless you! When’s the wedding?

Peace,

Gail
 
Dear Nebula, I hope you aren’t further confused by some of the replys. The question of validity relates properly to a Sacramental union between you and your husband. While you are strictly speaking married in a civil sense, you haven’t yet received a Sacrament. Where there is no priest there is no Sacrament. If you and your hubby remain in RCIA, etc. I’m sure that you’ll be able to get married Sacramentally. It is called a Nuptial Mass.

Here’s some help: "The present rules for a nuptial Mass are; first, that it may not be celebrated in the closed time for marriages, that is from Advent Sunday till after the octave of the Epiphany and from Ash Wednesday till after Low Sunday. During these times no reference to a marriage may be made in Mass; if people wish to be married then they must be content with the little service in the Ritual, without music or other solemnities. This is what is meant by the rubric: "claudun tur nuptiarum solemnia “; it is spoken of usually as the closed season. During the rest of the year the nuptial Mass may be said at a wedding any day except Sundays and feasts of obligation, doubles of the first and second class and such privileged ferias and octaves as exclude a double. It may not displace the Rogation Mass at which the procession is made, nor may it displace at least one Requiem on All Souls day. On these occasions its place is taken by the Mass of the day to which commemorations of the nuptial Mass are added in the last place and at which the blessings are inserted in their place. The nuptial blessing is considered as part of the nuptial Mass. It may never be given except during this Mass or during a Mass that replaces it (and commemorates it) when it cannot be said, as above. The nuptial Mass and blessing may be celebrated after the closed time for people married during it. So nuptial Mass and blessing always go together; either involves the other. One Mass and blessing may be held for several pairs of married people, who must all be present. The forms, however, remain in the singular as they are in the Missal. The Mass and blessing may not be held if the woman has already received this blessing in a former marriage. This rule only affects the woman, for whom the blessing is more specially intended (see the prayer Deus qui potestate). It must be understood exactly as stated. A former marriage without this blessing, or the fact that children had been born before the marriage, is no hindrance. Nor may the nuptial Mass and blessing be held in cases of mixed marriages (mixta religio) inspite of any dispensation. According to the Con stitution “Etsi sanctissimus Dominus” of Pius IX (15 November, 1858), mixed marriages must be celebrated outside the church (in England and America this is understood as meaning outside the sanctuary and choir), without the blessing of the ring or of the spouses without any ecclesiastical rite or vestment, without proclamation of banns.”
newadvent.org/cathen/10005a.htm

God bless you! When’s the wedding?

Peace,

Gail
Hi Gail,

I’m already married. My hubby isn’t in rcia and isn’t interested in joining the Catholic church. So, I’m not so much interested in a sacramental marriage at this stage as making sure that our marriage is considered valid. I hope that clarifies 🙂
 
Hi Gail,

I’m already married. My hubby isn’t in rcia and isn’t interested in joining the Catholic church. So, I’m not so much interested in a sacramental marriage at this stage as making sure that our marriage is considered valid. I hope that clarifies 🙂
Oh, I get it - you’re trying to say that Mormon marriage is as valid as a Catholic Sacrament? Or am I wrong again?

Peace,

Gail

P.S… God bless you and your hubby. The Church will still be waiting to give you the Sacrament if you and your hubby ever get around to saying yes to it.
 
Oh, I get it - you’re trying to say that Mormon marriage is as valid as a Catholic Sacrament? Or am I wrong again?

Peace,

Gail

P.S… God bless you and your hubby. The Church will still be waiting to give you the Sacrament if you and your hubby ever get around to saying yes to it.
No. Mormon baptisms aren’t even considered valid by the Catholic church. My concern is that because I was baptized Catholic as an infant that my marriage, because it was civil, will be considered invalid even though I was a Mormon at the time and had zero clue about any o fthis since I was not instructed in Catholicism at all. I hope that clarifies.
 
Dear Nebula, I hope you aren’t further confused by some of the replys. The question of validity relates properly to a Sacramental union between you and your husband. While you are strictly speaking married in a civil sense, you haven’t yet received a Sacrament. Where there is no priest there is no Sacrament.
There are several mistakes here*:

  • *]*Validity *is a precondition for the *sacramentality *of a marriage, but it is not synonymous with it. A valid marriage is one which has been lawfully celebrated between persons capable of and intending to contract a marriage. If those persons are both also baptized (either before or after contracting the marriage), their marriage is also, by that fact, sacramental. Non-baptized persons validly contracted marriage long before the sacrament of baptism was instituted and they continue to do so to this day.
    *]Valid and sacramental marriages are regularly celebrated without the presence of a priest. In the Roman Rite, the priest is the witness to a sacrament administered by a man and woman to each other. If a non-Catholic ecclesial community does not require its members to marry in the presence of clergy, they may validly marry in the presence of a justice of the peace or other official. Even Roman Catholics may marry without a clergyman in some Canonical circumstances.
    Oh, I get it - you’re trying to say that Mormon marriage is as valid as a Catholic Sacrament? Or am I wrong again?
    A Mormon marriage can be as valid as a Catholic marriage (or a Presbyterian marriage, or a Muslim marriage, or a secular marriage, or a Jewish marriage, or a …)

    (* And I suspect [user]nebula[/user] acknowledges this)

    (** A marriage between a baptized party and an unbaptized party is not a “sacrament for the former but not for the latter” nor is it some kind of half-sacrament. The sacrament of marriage is one shared by two persons, both of whom need be baptized)

    tee
    Who means no offense – Only information.
 
No. Mormon baptisms aren’t even considered valid by the Catholic church. My concern is that because I was baptized Catholic as an infant that my marriage, because it was civil, will be considered invalid even though I was a Mormon at the time and had zero clue about any o fthis since I was not instructed in Catholicism at all. I hope that clarifies.
Oh, I see. I’ll repeat - where there is no priest there is no Sacrament. You’re okay in your understanding that you have a civil marriage. Please keep in mind the info. I provided from the New Adent website. When you and your hubby are ready you can get the Sacrament of Matrimony. I have no idea what your Confessor will tell you to do till then, but do whatever he tells you.

Peace,

Gail
 
Oh, I see. I’ll repeat - where there is no priest there is no Sacrament. You’re okay in your understanding that you have a civil marriage. Please keep in mind the info. I provided from the New Adent website. When you and your hubby are ready you can get the Sacrament of Matrimony. I have no idea what your Confessor will tell you to do till then, but do whatever he tells you.

Peace,

Gail
You still don’t get what she’s asking.
  1. She wants to know if the Catholic Church considers her marriage VALID. We can’t answer that since, in her specific case, there are too many things to take into consideration.
  2. A priest is not needed for marriage to be a sacrament. Even in the Catholic Church a lay person, in certain circumstances, can be the witness for a wedding. We have such people in my diocese – appointed by the Bishop with Rome’s approval (and of course a licence from the government).
  3. Marriage is a sacrament for two baptized people, no matter what their religion. Two members of the United Church can be married in a civil ceremony and be in a sacramental marriage.
You don’t
 
I’ll repeat -
Code:
where there is no priest there is no Sacrament.
I repeat: You are mistaken in this assertion, wrt the Roman Catholic understanding of the sacrament of marriage.
(Nor is it relevant to the OP)
Please keep in mind the info. I provided from the New Adent website.
Please keep in mind that the old Catholic Ecyclopedia which you quote is … old, and is in many ways out of date (for example, "The
Code:
present
rules for a nuptial Mass", which were true (I presume) at the time of publication, but are no longer).

tee
 
nebula

At this point the thread is becoming esoteric. The main issues I see are 1) Are you willing to work your way through the steps to regain good standing in the Catholic Church. And 2) Is your husband up to either cooperating with you as you make these changes, or willing to go through the process with you.
 
Thanks seatuck and annie. I was hoping manybe I’d get lucky and someone would be familiar with my situation but it sounds like I’m just going to have to wait it out to see.
Nebula, it has been a rough ride for you! But I still want to add something to the discussion: You ask if your marriage is valid. The fact is that no one can answer your question–They can only give you advice based on the facts that you supply and the knowledge that they have (and some of their replies have been very expert, and some have been off the wall, like the person who says that without a priest a marriage cannot be a valid sacrament.) But when you submit the question to the Church officially, through your pastor or through the Marriage Tribunal, the answer you get will be definite, so that you can rest assured of the result. This is because you will not be getting advice. You will be getting the authoritative official response of the Church, which will be honored in Heaven. And so it can be honored by you. Jesus said, “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you lose on earth will be losed in heaven.” It is the power of the keys which Jesus gave to the apostles so that we can resolve our spiritual issues and live in good conscience as we wait for our Savior.
 
I definintely realize that no one can give me a definitive answer over a forum and that’s okay.

Texas I agree that is the ultimate issue. My confusion is that I’m still not sure about the Catholic church as an inquirer at this point and it has thrown a wrench into things a bit to realize that my hubby is going to have to go along with me to some extent if I ultilmately want to enter/“return” into the church.

But, I also want to understand the sort of reasoning that goes behind these kinds of decisions to help me make my decision if this is how I would expect Christ’s church to operate- I guess the issue of order vs mercy or however you want to put that.

tee, I agree- my question is about validity and not sacramentality. I’m pretty sure my marriage is not sacramental if only because my hubby isn’t baptized by a trinitarian formulation and from waht I understand a sacramental marriage must be between two baptized Christians.

From what I understand on the issue reading around-- and at this point this is more out of interest over this legal case than anything else-- that the whole thing will hinge on if my joining the Mormon church formally will count as a renounciation of my Catholic faith into which I was baptized but not at all educated in. If it does, I think the marriage will be valid. There’s where I place my bet…
 
this post is also wrong, if you are still married to your first husband the marriage tribunal does not enter into this. Please see your pastor and get the facts straight for your own situation, this thread is only going to confuse the issue. In general in my experience marriage issues are far easier to resolve than they first appear.
Why not? They do more than process annulments here. They give opinions on validity etc. They are experts on marriage. Priests call them to consult on questions like this all the time.
 
UPDATE: here is an update for those of you who tookt he time to answer me. I called the marriage tribunal office of my archdiocese and posed the question and was told that my marriage is valid.
 
🙂 thanks tee! I’m pretty relieved. It was so easy too! I wish I would’ve thought of that move before.
 
Dear Nebula,

First of all, great news on the validity! I’m sure that’s a big relief. Even though it’s no longer a “live” issue, I thought I might offer a few more tidbits to help you understand the rationale behind the laws that have been so vexing for you recently.
From what I understand on the issue reading around-- and at this point this is more out of interest over this legal case than anything else-- that the whole thing will hinge on if my joining the Mormon church formally will count as a renounciation of my Catholic faith into which I was baptized but not at all educated in. If it does, I think the marriage will be valid. There’s where I place my bet…
Obviously the diocese will have told you why your marriage is valid, and formal enrolment in the Mormon church is probably the reason (part of the requirement for written notification of one’s bishop when one defects from the faith is that most other churches do not have any formal process of entry - you can just show up and go to church there). One other possibility that occurs to me, though, is that if you were essentially pulled out of the faith before being able to make the decision for yourself then a tribunal might also consider that formal defection. Parents can make those decisions for their young children such that, for instance, when they convert to Catholicism they can “convert” their baptized children simply by declaring their intent that the children be considered Catholics, too. It should work in the other direction, too.
Obviously this matter has to factor into my decision for no other reason than I would question the validity of a church which questions the validity of a marriage between two people who were virgins on their wedding day.
The real reason I wanted to post, though, is to throw some light on this difficulty you have been having, namely with the idea that no church worthy of the name should be doubting what appear to be perfectly valid commitments on the part of people who intended to marry. I hope to explain just a little bit as to why the Catholic Church considers many of those marriages to be invalid.

The main flow of the reasoning is that the Church says: if a Catholic declines/refuses to marry within the rules set down by the Church, are we really supposed to believe that the same Catholic intends to do what the Church teaches about marriage? The problem is that this gets rather odd when we are dealing not with Catholics per se but with former Catholics.

The requirement to observe Catholic form in marriage is really designed for Catholics as such, ideally *practicing Catholics *but at least those who self-identify as Catholics; if they say with their mouths that they want to get married, but then either don’t bother to find out how they as Catholics ought to do this, or even worse find out and then openly refuse to do those things, then that seems like a very acceptable reason to doubt that they intend to contract a (Catholic) marriage.

The requirement about formal defection, on the other hand, exists because Catholic identity operates on a spectrum of registers. In one sense, once one is baptized Catholic or is received into the Church, one is Catholic forever, unto all eternity. It’s an ontological fact, which admits only of the question of being a “good Catholic” or “bad Catholic.” But one can also lump some of the bad Catholics into a group of people who no longer believe or practice the Catholic faith at all and in fact believe and practice (sometimes quite fervently) a different faith. Formal defection was placed into our laws to prevent that sort of people from coming to a troubled point in their marriages contracted once having left the Church andsaying “Well, since I was Catholic twenty years ago and didn’t marry you in the Church 10 years ago, I can walk away at any time.” It was an attempt to seriously bind people to marriages contracted while they were not living as Catholics by making it possibly to assert the validity of those marriages.

The problem we have run into, though, is that the vagaries of interpretation have led to a very odd mixture of the above principles by setting the bar for defection so high that it effectively invalidates the marriages defection was meant to cement in their validity. It’s a problem that many have highlighted and hope will be remedied ASAP, but the fact of that problem should not cover up the main reasoning behind the invalidity issue to begin with, i.e. we’re really just looking to see if someone actually intends to enter into marriage (a lifelong union of man and woman that is exclusive, permanent, open to life, etc., etc.) rather than just entering into a somewhat temporary tax shelter, a more formal means of shacking up, or some similar non-marriage pact. We haven’t quite perfected our calculus in this regard, but that’s really all we’re trying to do.
 
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