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john1513
Guest
You’re married. What could the Church have done better to educate and prepare you for married life? What teachings should be emphasized in Catholic marriage preparation before and after marriage?
Married couples: What do you wish you knew about sex and marriage during your marriage prep?
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Xantippe
Guest
I don’t know that any Catholic teachings were missing or that we didn’t know, but I would say that (being a convert from Protestantism) I started married life with much stronger views on wifely obedience than are really Catholic.
It was quite a surprise for me a few years ago to read Casti Connubii (1930) and discover that the teachings are much more moderate and reasonable than I expected:
"27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.
“28. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact.”
It was quite a surprise for me a few years ago to read Casti Connubii (1930) and discover that the teachings are much more moderate and reasonable than I expected:
"27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.
“28. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact.”
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Xantippe
Guest
The pastor who was prepping us said some very wise things about finances that didn’t sink in at the time. I think we would have done very well to take a whole course on finances (like Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University), but we had no idea at the time. Nothing utterly catastrophic happened, but we were disorganized for way too long. (Both of our families of origin do some weird stuff with money, and when I was a kid, my parents were very dysfunctional about finances and had lots of huge arguments about it.) But at the time, I didn’t even realize there was a problem. It took us 9 years to figure out there was a problem and get on track.
Another thing I didn’t realize at the time (and I don’t think that anybody could have gotten it into my head then) is that having just two children is harder than you think. At the time, I had kind of drunk the Koolaid and thought that parents of two are just selfish, lazy and materialistic. I fully expected that we would have 4-6 kids and homeschool, just like all the cool Catholic parents. I was also going to be a fantastic cook and housekeeper, not a domestic underachiever like my mom…
As it turns out, we have three children now after 19 years of marriage, but we had only two for our first 14 years. Our oldest is on the autism spectrum, as is the youngest. As it turned out, I have not officially homeschooled a day. At some point (probably around the time Big Girl was in preschool) it became clear that homeschool was not going to be a good option for our family. I also have housecleaning help twice a month and don’t cook a whole lot–but I’m actually a pretty OK mom and wife.
I was guilty of a lot of arrogance and inexperience as a young bride. Some of that was coming out of a family where my parents had a weird marriage and not getting a sense of what reasonable household expectations are. The other issue is that as a convert, it took me a long time before I realized what the distinction is between actual Catholic teaching and conservative Catholic US culture (which are not exactly the same thing). I eventually realized (thanks to reading the blogger The Practical Conservative) that conservative religious expectations for women are nuts. Homeschool a large family alone while cooking and cleaning perfectly on a small income–suuuuuure.
I also could have benefited from the books “Boundaries in Marriage” or one of John Gottman’s books as a young bride and young mother–but I was very busy at the time! I could have gotten even more from the book “How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids” as a young mom, but as it came out just this year, the only way to do that would be with a time machine…
All in all, we could have done a lot of things better (and there were some embarrassing mistakes along the way), but none of the mistakes were fatal.
On a more positive note, the sex stuff went very well, despite inexperience.
Another thing I didn’t realize at the time (and I don’t think that anybody could have gotten it into my head then) is that having just two children is harder than you think. At the time, I had kind of drunk the Koolaid and thought that parents of two are just selfish, lazy and materialistic. I fully expected that we would have 4-6 kids and homeschool, just like all the cool Catholic parents. I was also going to be a fantastic cook and housekeeper, not a domestic underachiever like my mom…
As it turns out, we have three children now after 19 years of marriage, but we had only two for our first 14 years. Our oldest is on the autism spectrum, as is the youngest. As it turned out, I have not officially homeschooled a day. At some point (probably around the time Big Girl was in preschool) it became clear that homeschool was not going to be a good option for our family. I also have housecleaning help twice a month and don’t cook a whole lot–but I’m actually a pretty OK mom and wife.
I was guilty of a lot of arrogance and inexperience as a young bride. Some of that was coming out of a family where my parents had a weird marriage and not getting a sense of what reasonable household expectations are. The other issue is that as a convert, it took me a long time before I realized what the distinction is between actual Catholic teaching and conservative Catholic US culture (which are not exactly the same thing). I eventually realized (thanks to reading the blogger The Practical Conservative) that conservative religious expectations for women are nuts. Homeschool a large family alone while cooking and cleaning perfectly on a small income–suuuuuure.
I also could have benefited from the books “Boundaries in Marriage” or one of John Gottman’s books as a young bride and young mother–but I was very busy at the time! I could have gotten even more from the book “How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids” as a young mom, but as it came out just this year, the only way to do that would be with a time machine…
All in all, we could have done a lot of things better (and there were some embarrassing mistakes along the way), but none of the mistakes were fatal.
On a more positive note, the sex stuff went very well, despite inexperience.
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faithsmind
Guest
google.com/amp/s/catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/marriage-crucifix/amp/
An emphasis on building the couple’s spirituality…
An emphasis on building the couple’s spirituality…
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john1513
Guest
Very profound and severely lacking in the marriage ministries at my parish.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
We would have appreciated a pre-Cana course that was geared towards people our age (mid-30s when we got engaged over 2 decades ago) rather than one welcoming all ages. There is a huge difference between the thoughts and needs of 34-year-olds who have been dating each other for over 10 years, and 21-year-olds who are still learning life skills. Most of the exercises involving us ranking our values and comparing lists and having discussions about what we liked about each other and so forth, we had already done. Our value lists came out just about identical. We knew they would, that’s why we were getting married.
To be honest, the only reason we were there was because it was required in order for the priest to marry us, so as nice as it was to spend a weekend in a beautiful monastery setting with prayers and such, two days of morning-till-night workshop was overkill in a big way.
Maybe instead of focusing on things like basic communication, when it’s couples who have been together a long time it might focus on things like why we are deciding now to get married and what might change about our relationship once we are actually married as opposed to just dating or living together.
Also, while I’m sure the two couples leading our pre-Cana workshop were good, well-meaning people, one of the couples had some sort of very dysfunctional family including a child that was severely emotionally disturbed to the point of suicide attempts, and other similar things, and they discussed all of this during the workshops; the other couple seemed more down-to-earth and stable but it turned out they had both been divorced and remarried, presumably in the Church (I would hope) but there was some lengthy proceeding involved which they also shared about during the workshops, including their frustration with God that it took so long for them to be able to be married. I wish these workshop leaders had not shared all this personal stuff during the sessions, because it was heavy, complicated, and frankly, weird to hear about, like being forced into a group therapy session that you weren’t expecting and didn’t want or need to be in.
To be honest, the only reason we were there was because it was required in order for the priest to marry us, so as nice as it was to spend a weekend in a beautiful monastery setting with prayers and such, two days of morning-till-night workshop was overkill in a big way.
Maybe instead of focusing on things like basic communication, when it’s couples who have been together a long time it might focus on things like why we are deciding now to get married and what might change about our relationship once we are actually married as opposed to just dating or living together.
Also, while I’m sure the two couples leading our pre-Cana workshop were good, well-meaning people, one of the couples had some sort of very dysfunctional family including a child that was severely emotionally disturbed to the point of suicide attempts, and other similar things, and they discussed all of this during the workshops; the other couple seemed more down-to-earth and stable but it turned out they had both been divorced and remarried, presumably in the Church (I would hope) but there was some lengthy proceeding involved which they also shared about during the workshops, including their frustration with God that it took so long for them to be able to be married. I wish these workshop leaders had not shared all this personal stuff during the sessions, because it was heavy, complicated, and frankly, weird to hear about, like being forced into a group therapy session that you weren’t expecting and didn’t want or need to be in.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
That as you settle into life and facing big things together (illness, death, career changes, etc) becomes second-nature, a lot of your petty insecurities and jealousies fade away.
Yes, you should always be vigilant, and you have a responsibility to be so. But, when you start coming home to conversations about selling his widowed mother’s house and moving her into an apartment or packing up and moving across the country (again) together, the idea that a pretty face at the office or some guy from college poses any sort of threat to your life becomes laughable.
Same with a lot of the “rules” or boundaries you think you have in place to protect yourself. The “I-would-never-tolerate…” stuff largely falls to the wayside as you start to get a feel for what really matters long term. Forgiveness becomes easier, and thank goodness so does forgetting, because if you marry in your 20’s and you’re lucky, you have 60+ years ahead of you with this person.
His/her family really will become yours, assuming no major issues on either side. It doesn’t feel like it at first; in-laws can seem strange and a little scary. But as the years keep coming and life piles on, you’ll start to really love them, warts and all. You’ll learn to trust and count on them, and you’ll see a crucial place for them in you and your kids’ lives.
Gradually, it becomes less about a romantic pairing (though there’s always plenty of that
) and more about an overarching family system. The security that comes with that level of commitment and integration is something that is hardly ever talked about but is every bit as wonderful and important as falling in love with your spouse in the first place.
Yes, you should always be vigilant, and you have a responsibility to be so. But, when you start coming home to conversations about selling his widowed mother’s house and moving her into an apartment or packing up and moving across the country (again) together, the idea that a pretty face at the office or some guy from college poses any sort of threat to your life becomes laughable.
Same with a lot of the “rules” or boundaries you think you have in place to protect yourself. The “I-would-never-tolerate…” stuff largely falls to the wayside as you start to get a feel for what really matters long term. Forgiveness becomes easier, and thank goodness so does forgetting, because if you marry in your 20’s and you’re lucky, you have 60+ years ahead of you with this person.
His/her family really will become yours, assuming no major issues on either side. It doesn’t feel like it at first; in-laws can seem strange and a little scary. But as the years keep coming and life piles on, you’ll start to really love them, warts and all. You’ll learn to trust and count on them, and you’ll see a crucial place for them in you and your kids’ lives.
Gradually, it becomes less about a romantic pairing (though there’s always plenty of that
) and more about an overarching family system. The security that comes with that level of commitment and integration is something that is hardly ever talked about but is every bit as wonderful and important as falling in love with your spouse in the first place.
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egretps
Guest
The quiz we took for Father, a multiple choice, showed us to be on very separate pages. Our score was something like 23%. Father was so alarmed he had to talk with us separately and together about his concerns. Concerned enough he wasn’t sure he would marry us. Which then made me super concerned. Well, it so happens that my dh and I did agree on basically everything it was just, mostly my interpretation of the questions. A big flag on communication skills or the fact that I don’t test well on multiple choice tests, not even in school. Father went ahead and married us. (My dh did the most pleading with Father, which actually helped me have more confidence in going forward in getting married. I went all in.)
Maybe that was a mistake. But, we’ve been married for over twenty years!
So maybe the Holy Spirit was working on us at the time.
I agree that the ‘one-size’ fits all class doesn’t work for older couples who’ve balanced checkbooks and other such adulting skills. My husband and I were late twenties. We could have used a book on happy married life that highlighted married saints. The happy ones, like the Martins and maybe the unhappily married ones that still showed hope like St. Rita.
When engaged there is so much flutter getting the wedding planned.
I will say that actually planning the Nuptial Mass was the best part IMHO. More than picking flowers or the cake. I’m not joking. I think there should be a bigger emphasis on planning the ceremony! The Mass and the readings, the meanings behind everything in the ceremony. Also, reasons a marriage might NOT be valid needs to be emphasized.
I would love to know if these classes have helped curb divorce, or deep unhappiness in couples who have taken them. (I suspect they have, but the world we live in…)
Maybe that was a mistake. But, we’ve been married for over twenty years!
So maybe the Holy Spirit was working on us at the time.I agree that the ‘one-size’ fits all class doesn’t work for older couples who’ve balanced checkbooks and other such adulting skills. My husband and I were late twenties. We could have used a book on happy married life that highlighted married saints. The happy ones, like the Martins and maybe the unhappily married ones that still showed hope like St. Rita.
When engaged there is so much flutter getting the wedding planned.
I will say that actually planning the Nuptial Mass was the best part IMHO. More than picking flowers or the cake. I’m not joking. I think there should be a bigger emphasis on planning the ceremony! The Mass and the readings, the meanings behind everything in the ceremony. Also, reasons a marriage might NOT be valid needs to be emphasized.
I would love to know if these classes have helped curb divorce, or deep unhappiness in couples who have taken them. (I suspect they have, but the world we live in…)
Tis_Bearself
Patron
They probably helped curb divorce in at least one case we saw in our workshop where after the first couple of exercises, one young guy decided he didn’t want to get married after all, packed his things, and left, leaving his poor fiancee behind. I’m sure she was sad, but better for him to split before the wedding rather than after.
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Xantippe
Guest
I’ve personally found that I’ve shifted from seeing my family of origin as the normal people and the in-laws as the weirdos to realizing that they’re ALL weird in different ways, and that there are many traditions and values in my husband’s family of origin that I prefer to my family of origin.His/her family really will become yours, assuming no major issues on either side. It doesn’t feel like it at first; in-laws can seem strange and a little scary. But as the years keep coming and life piles on, you’ll start to really love them, warts and all. You’ll learn to trust and count on them, and you’ll see a crucial place for them in you and your kids’ lives.
Gradually, it becomes less about a romantic pairing (though there’s always plenty of that
At this point, I’m much franker with my MIL than my mom, even though I talk to my mom more.
But, YMMV.
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egretps
Guest
That as sad as it sounds, was a win.
I just read on another board, christianforums.com/threads/divorced-catholics.1937156/ that among ‘contraceptive’ Catholics, the divorce rate is the same as the general population. Whereas the NFP couples have a divorce rate of 2%. WOW! I wonder if that is true.
My dh and I used NFP to get pregnant and to avoid it. (I had 2 pregnancies that were preeclamptic and lost a couple through miscarriage. I wanted five or six kids, not a big family but a fuller family. I have conflicted feelings about NFP.)
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Xantippe
Guest
Yay!
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mommy_k
Guest
About marriage:
That husbands can be proficient with a push lawn mower, but have no clue how to use a vacumme. Perhaps it’s the extra drag back that’s confusing.
(Smile).
That husbands can be proficient with a push lawn mower, but have no clue how to use a vacumme. Perhaps it’s the extra drag back that’s confusing.
(Smile).
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macstar
Guest
Ditto. We were in our late 30s when we married. When introductions were being made, I remember leaning over toward my now-spouse and whispering, “We could be their parents.” We had very different things to deal with because we were established financially, owned businesses, had separate households, etc. and were in a different phase of life. When we were dating we cut to the chase (unlike in my 20s) on topics like retirement, sex, savings, child bearing/rearing, debt, goals and brought each other around to our families, friends, church, work and neighbors a lot. Most of the weekend solidified what we had already discussed.
With more interracial and intercultural marriages, I can see the value in having a session on that. Many couples don’t realize cultural obligations and expectations the spouse and their family may have for them.
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starlady88
Guest
Our FOCCUS questionnaire results were not terrible, but they weren’t amazing either. That also came down to more of an interpretation issue rather than any major disagreements. I did it in English and my then-fiance did it in Spanish (our first languages, respectively). For example, one of the questions was whether or not we thought our fiance/e had issues with drinking too much alcohol. I said no way (my fiance rarely drinks, and if he does, it’s at most one drink), but my fiance said yes, definitely. I like to drink socially, perhaps one or two drinks when I am with family or at a company Christmas party, but I don’t drink to excess either. When Father asked us about that at one of our meetings, we clarified haha. Interpretation of the questions was a bit of an issue.
The answers to this thread are interesting to me, as I only just recently got married. DH and I have almost zero experience in the whole marriage thing, but we’re learning.
Our marriage prep was very through and conducted by people who were well on board with Church Teaching and all that.
One area I would add, that I’ve since researched myself, is the area of NFP. I think there is a lot of emphasis on how NFP can be used in marriage, and not enough guidance on the issue of whether it should be used in particular circumstances. I think it would be valuable to instruct couples in some of the guidelines the church has in this area.
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pensmama87
Guest
In hindsight, I think our marriage prep was probably as thorough as it could have been. It just took several years of married experience for me to not be so hardheaded.
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Xantippe
Guest
Yeah.In hindsight, I think our marriage prep was probably as thorough as it could have been. It just took several years of married experience for me to not be so hardheaded.
You’re not always ready to soak up information the first time you bump into it.
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nodito
Guest
At our Pre-Cana one of the couples told us “Don’t keep score” and “Don’t compete over who has the worst day.” Keeping score is mentally tallying up how much you do for the house or your family and trying to compare it to your spouse’s contribution, when really both of you ought to be doing your best all the time and picking up your spouses’ slack when s/he is ill or unable. Competing over the worst day is the temptation to “one up” your spouse when they complain about how hard their day was, rather than listening to them vent and comforting them. As in, “Oh, you think that was bad? Listen to what the kids did while you were at work!” The temptation to have had the more difficult day is especially hard to resist when the spouse with the harder day is allowed to relax after work and the spouse with the easier day is sort of expected to do dinner/cleanup/kids. Don’t do it. Just come to the understanding that both spouses pitch in as much as they are able every day, even if they have a bad day at work or at home.
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Luvz2travel
Guest
The realist in me loves this idea.
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