Married men and women as friends

[EasterJoy]

The lens may have the appearance of being new, but it easily could still be used.

I think I said that.

It only happened once… The guy is married, and could just be a kind soul. You can’t stop a person from being kind, nor should you want to. I suggest to let it go. Certainly, a person should be on the lookout and defend their marriage, but that’s different than scrutinizing every solitary interaction your spouse has with a member of the opposite sex, and putting them under a microscope. The wife has been questioned repeatedly, and she says it’s innocent. If it’s simply a matter of not trusting her, it’s probably a good idea to seek marriage counseling with a trusted therapist. It sounds as if the men in the OP’s family have had issues with fidelity. Naturally, if the men closest to the OP cheat on their spouses, that would cause him to question all men…as he has. Unfortunately, you can’t block half of the human population from having interactions with your spouse. Although the OP undoubtedly is greatly attracted to his wife, that doesn’t mean that every single man is attracted to her. True, he should protect her, but also be realistic in what that protection entails. If there are red flags, address them in a rational manner. To be honest, I see more red flags with the husband and his thoughts toward women, than I do with a guy gifting a person with a shared hobby a used lens.

I have to confess that I feel bad for this man that his wife works with. He sounds like a happily married husband and father, going about his business, and could be clueless that his kind gesture has strangers on the Internet questioning and debating his character at great length, and doubting his fidelity to his wife and family, etc. If this man was our husband or father, we would be rightfully outraged. if this was us, we would be undoubtly insulted. Good advice was offered to the OP, and I hope he discusses this matter with his wife further.

When his wife says they need a therapist, let him consider it. Otherwise, I think this couple is still competent to talk with each other by themselves.

Did I say she should not have male friends? I did not. I’m saying it is not unreasonable that she not accept expensive gifts from male friends when her husband is uncomfortable with it. I know many couples whose opposite-sex friends are couple-to-couple friends, and they like it that way. They’re not controlling and they’re not failing to live life to the fullest or any of that.

I myself have been the happily married spouse with the male friends whose wife was uncomfortable with me, and I did not choose to take it personally. I certainly wasn’t outraged! She doesn’t even know me and she obviously married her husband because she thinks he is attractive, so why should she just assume I couldn’t possibly have designs on her husband? Why should she just assume that her husband is beyond temptation? That is how people I know have gotten themselves into trouble, with just that kind of “I’m not like other men” kind of thinking.

If you’re a friend to the guy, you’re a friend to his marriage. You take his wife’s feelings into consideration, and you don’t just assume that if she doesn’t feel the way you think you would that she’s a jealous controlling shrew who doesn’t want her husband to have a life. You don’t just assume that she can’t be sensing something about her husband’s feelings or yours that you don’t. You trust the couple to set boundaries that are good for them, and YOU adjust to that, as a matter of course. That’s what friends do.

 

[Evania]

I think I said that.

When his wife says they need a therapist, let him consider it. Otherwise, I think this couple is still competent to talk with each other by themselves.

Did I say she should not have male friends? I did not. I’m saying it is not unreasonable that she not accept expensive gifts from male friends when her husband is uncomfortable with it. I know many couples whose opposite-sex friends are couple-to-couple friends, and they like it that way. They’re not controlling and they’re not failing to live life to the fullest or any of that.

I myself have been the happily married spouse with the male friends whose wife was uncomfortable with me, and I did not choose to take it personally. I certainly wasn’t outraged! She doesn’t even know me and she obviously married her husband because she thinks he is attractive, so why should she just assume I couldn’t possibly have designs on her husband? Why should she just assume that her husband is beyond temptation? That is how people I know have gotten themselves into trouble, with just that kind of “I’m not like other men” kind of thinking.

If you’re a friend to the guy, you’re a friend to his marriage. You take his wife’s feelings into consideration, and you don’t just assume that if she doesn’t feel the way you think you would that she’s a jealous controlling shrew who doesn’t want her husband to have a life. You don’t just assume that she can’t be sensing something about her husband’s feelings or yours that you don’t. You trust the couple to set boundaries that are good for them, and YOU adjust to that, as a matter of course. That’s what friends do.

Easter Joy,

You said that to the OP, they appear to be new. The OP stated that he spent some time scrutinizing the lens to see if his wife was being truthful. True, you did make a small concession in that they could be used, but are still arguing that it’s inappropriate. I honestly don’t understand why it’s not okay to give something away to a person when you don’t want it anymore. If he went out and bought something for this man’s wife, I can see your point. However, that isn’t the case. You keep saying “expensive gifts” as if he’s showering her with presents. This was ONE time, and he told her it was USED. They had a shared hobby, and he gave her a hand me down. Based on what we know, it’s hardly worth “whipping” the guy, as the OP eloquently stated. Let’s not put the guy on trial just yet. I’m not going to slam this gentleman because of his kind gesture, nor his wife in being polite in accepting it. There’s a woman at my husband’s workplace. She brought in brownies for all the men. Should we be jealous? After all, I don’t know her. From what I hear, she’s a nice lady, who’s going to retire next year.

Please do not continue twisting my words around. I suggested marital counseling in the case that the OP had problems with trusting his wife around other men. He stated repeatedly that he needs to protect her from them. There is a difference between protecting and oppressing. You stated something similar in a previous post. If you’re overtly concerned with what his wife thinks, maybe you should weigh what she told the OP when she said it’s no big deal.

 

[MJJean]

Easter Joy,

You said that to the OP, they appear to be new. The OP stated that he spent some time scrutinizing the lens to see if his wife was being truthful.

Interesting how the OP says he trusts his wife but then scrutinized carefully a lens she told him her friend gave her because he didn’t need it…

I have been around the block when it comes to a cheating spouse. as I have said before in posts my ex husband was a real piece of work. And I still have some residual baggage from that. But even I have more trust in the man I married and the people he calls friends. If he brought home a shared hobby item and said a friend gave it to him because she no longer needed/wanted it I would take him at his word.

I have had my share of marital troubles caused by personal issues that had not so much to do with my husband or our marriage and a lot to do with me. I am not the type who jumps on the therapy bandwagon. Considering the OP doesn’t seem to actually trust his wife, or anyone else for that matter, I think he should seek counseling on his own to handle his own issues stemming from the men in his family not exactly being trustworthy guys.

 

[Xantippe]

In my less financially prudent days, I have owned a lot of items that looked new long after I bought them, namely because I bought them with insufficient thought as to whether I actually needed them or because grandmas gave us stuff we didn’t need. When I sold the items or gave them away, they were often basically new.

If the OP insists on playing Othello, he’s going to keep on finding evidence, no matter what the facts are.

 

[Evania]

Interesting how the OP says he trusts his wife but then scrutinized carefully a lens she told him her friend gave her because he didn’t need it…

I have been around the block when it comes to a cheating spouse. as I have said before in posts my ex husband was a real piece of work. And I still have some residual baggage from that. But even I have more trust in the man I married and the people he calls friends. If he brought home a shared hobby item and said a friend gave it to him because she no longer needed/wanted it I would take him at his word.

I have had my share of marital troubles caused by personal issues that had not so much to do with my husband or our marriage and a lot to do with me. I am not the type who jumps on the therapy bandwagon. Considering the OP doesn’t seem to actually trust his wife, or anyone else for that matter, I think he should seek counseling on his own to handle his own issues stemming from the men in his family not exactly being trustworthy guys.

I agree.

A lot of times when someone accuses a person of a particular trait, it’s because they are afraid of that particular trait in themselves. I see a lot of how, “Men can’t be trusted.” In another thread, he was concerned that when men at church would hug his wife, even if it was a side-hug, the men were being “sexual”. The problem isn’t with any particular guy, it’s his fear of men in general. I just hope his jealousy doesn’t cause a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[on_the_hill]

Another reason this is interesting to me is that I have a married friend at work. Because of our positions, we sometimes spend hours alone together–in the office. And occasionally we go out for coffee, etc. We have a mutually supportive relationship.

I have longer conversations with her than I do with my wife. Why? Because we don’t have to talk about the important, serious stuff. Rather, we do talk about those things but it’s easier somehow when you’re not invested in that other person to the extent you are your spouse.

Another reason I enjoy being with her is because for the first time in my 20-some years of working, she is the first female coworker who is a peer: age, education, married with children, similar values, etc.

But we are both committed to our spouses and families, and I can sense that we both pull back from our “relationship” at times.

So–can marrieds be friend? Of course. Does it necessarily lead to hanky panky? Of course not.

But I do think the ‘other man’ in OP’s life ought to pull back a little bit. Whether or not he’s targeting OP’s wife, he does seem a bit forward.

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree.

A lot of times when someone accuses a person of a particular trait, it’s because they are afraid of that particular trait in themselves. I see a lot of how, “Men can’t be trusted.” In another thread, he was concerned that when men at church would hug his wife, even if it was a side-hug, the men were being “sexual”. The problem isn’t with any particular guy, it’s his fear of men in general. I just hope his jealousy doesn’t cause a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It is a common logical fallacy that if an over-protective person sees a danger, then no danger must exist.

BTW, do you find that the men at your parish just walk up and hug you a lot? I have many men at church that I count as good friends and who have other women as good friends, and I’d say this is something I usually only see when there is a reason–the woman had a big loss in her life recently, her husband is seriously ill, or the two have not seen each other for a long time.

I have also found over my lifetime that I am not the first person to “get it” when a guy has a thing for me. I’m just looking at the as friends, but somehow guys see a ready openness for friendship as some kind of sexual flattery. If you don’t know anyone who was the last to figure it out when some guy was interested in her, you have to be in the minority. I’ve learned the hard way (meaning figuring out too late the impression I was creating) to be careful what kinds of physical gestures I make.

 

[maryjk]

It is a common logical fallacy that if an over-protective person sees a danger, then no danger must exist.

BTW, do you find that the men at your parish just walk up and hug you a lot? I have many men at church that I count as good friends and who have other women as good friends, and I’d say this is something I usually only see when there is a reason–the woman had a big loss in her life recently, her husband is seriously ill, or the two have not seen each other for a long time.

About half a dozen. Yes.

All of them married. All of their wives are known to me. And they do it whether my husband is there or not. And whether their wife is there or not. And at least two of them have teens that also hug me.

Maybe we are just a “huggy” parish.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I agree.

A lot of times when someone accuses a person of a particular trait, it’s because they are afraid of that particular trait in themselves. I see a lot of how, “Men can’t be trusted.” In another thread, he was concerned that when men at church would hug his wife, even if it was a side-hug, the men were being “sexual”. The problem isn’t with any particular guy, it’s his fear of men in general. I just hope his jealousy doesn’t cause a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The first piece of dating advice I ever received was when I was 13 from my brother. He told me that if I ever dated someone who always accused me of cheating I should leave him, because chances are he himself was, or at least would, cheat.

His “all men are evil” attitude makes me think that it’s more a reflection of his own private attitudes.

And before EJ jumps on this post I would like to clarify that no one is saying that this situation couldn’t be a potential problem. What we’re saying is that given the evidence there is no reason to think that he’s “poaching” the OPs wife.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

About half a dozen. Yes.

All of them married. All of their wives are known to me. And they do it whether my husband is there or not. And whether their wife is there or not. And at least two of them have teens that also hug me.

Maybe we are just a “huggy” parish.

Growing up the men in my church always hugged my mom and grandma every Sunday.

And my friends and I hug all the time too. It’s just something that normal people do.

 

[MJJean]

BTW, do you find that the men at your parish just walk up and hug you a lot?

Yes. I am a huggy person and even I was a bit surprised that so many men and women were hugging friends and strangers during the “Peace and Christ Be With You Cocktail Party”. We call it that because it takes some time and if we’re going to be hugging and handshaking that long we might was well serve some drinks and pass some snacks, lol.

But, yes, we seem to be a huggy parish, too. I was getting hugs from men and women the first month I was there and have been ever since.

 

[Xantippe]

BEL said:

“The first piece of dating advice I ever received was when I was 13 from my brother. He told me that if I ever dated someone who always accused me of cheating I should leave him, because chances are he himself was, or at least would, cheat.”

What a smart brother!

 

[EasterJoy]

The first piece of dating advice I ever received was when I was 13 from my brother. He told me that if I ever dated someone who always accused me of cheating I should leave him, because chances are he himself was, or at least would, cheat.

His “all men are evil” attitude makes me think that it’s more a reflection of his own private attitudes.

And before EJ jumps on this post I would like to clarify that no one is saying that this situation couldn’t be a potential problem. What we’re saying is that given the evidence there is no reason to think that he’s “poaching” the OPs wife.

My entire point is that while this fellow might be totally innocent–and I think the OP believes his wife is totally innocent–that doesn’t mean he can’t be inappropriate or that he must be believed innocent “until proven guilty” or that he might not be on a road to starting an unfortunate romantic affection that neither party ever intended. When that happens, it is just a bad situation. What is worse than when a good friend falls in love with a good friend who is married to another man? What treacherous feelings those are for a man who values the bond of marriage to feel! It is very painful, and yet entirely avoidable if hubris is avoided.

If the OP is trying to get the fellow convicted of anything, he doesn’t have the evidence. There is nothing here that cannot possibly have an innocent explanation. He’s more like a guy who sees someone driving slowly through his neighborhood and admiring his house who is getting the feeling that he needs to remember to lock the doors at night and turn the alarm on when he leaves.

Most locks only keep the honest people honest, but considering the heartbreak that goes with crimes of the heart between otherwise honest people, I think those locks are worth having in place. No one ought to take such locks as an insult. It is like what our pastor once told us about not leaving purses out and available during Communion. When you keep your purse out of the reach of a pickpocket, you’re not accusing anyone, but rather doing your duty to remove obvious near occasions of sin for the benefit of your neighbor.

That’s what I mean to advocate for: not that the OP see every man who hugs his wife as a conscious-free predator of the kind he has known, but rather that he asks his wife to see even decent men as a weak sinners like himself, and to encourage his wife to keep boundaries that remind them that they are her platonic friends and her spiritual friends–that is, her brothers–and no more nor ever any more than that, lest they fail to see her as the daughter of the Lord and holy woman that she is, and instead see her in some way as an object of their desire, instead.

This doesn’t just happen automatically. It requires boundaries, it requires vigilance, and it requires a willingness to hear when others warn that a boundary is near to being crossed, rather than always being one’s own authority in an area where those involved are probably the most blind to the real situation, rather than the most aware. That is all I am saying.

 

[on_the_hill]

And my friends and I hug all the time too. It’s just something that normal people do.

Not me. I have friends who are huggers, but they tend to maintain personal space around me. Sometimes I feel a little left out, but it avoids the awkwardness, because aside from my wife and kids, and sometimes my mom, I don’t hug.

 

[Sarabande]

My thoughts on this:

I do believe that couples should agree on the boundaries they are comfortable with when it comes to opposite sex relationships. I personally find the OP’s actions a bit stifling, but I’m not married to him. And really no matter how much I think it is an overreaction, this isn’t my relationship. They have to find out TOGETHER what is best to keep their marriage strong and healthy… not what I think is best.

His wife probably knew his personality before she married him. If she did, then I do think there should be a level of respect for her husband’s feelings on her end. If he were my husband and I was aware of his jealous tendencies and knew about his family’s philandering history, thus a trust and insecurity issue and possible paranoia with men, I personally believe that to keep that kind of marriage strong and healthy, I would give him that respect, even if I might think he is overreacting and is being silly. Everyone has issues and for some of these issues, “getting over it” is not so easy and could be viewed as a lack of love or respect.

That said, the OP should also have the same level of respect for his wife’s feelings. He says he trusts her, but he really doesn’t trust her due to his problem with this guy and thinking that he could possibly end up seducing her if this friend’s intentions are nefarious. Although I do believe that many affairs begin innocently, there really should be a real level of trust on the spouse’s part.

We don’t have the wife’s side of the story, but it does seem to be a lot of assumptions and suspicions and not enough communication. By showing true respect AND love for each other, by clearly communicating with each other their feelings and beliefs and truly LISTENING to what each other is saying, they might be able to find some common ground as to what would be appropriate and acceptable in their marriage relationship. There will probably be some give and take, as having everything one-side is also not healthy for a relationship and only cause resentment.

 

[EasterJoy]

Growing up the men in my church always hugged my mom and grandma every Sunday.

And my friends and I hug all the time too. It’s just something that normal people do.

Some parishes are more “huggy” than others.

When I’m in a place where the fellows hug each other with at least as much gusto as they hug the women, OK. That’s a huggy parish, fine, as long as the non-huggers aren’t marginalized for actually maintaining their right to have an inviolate personal space without being treated as a cold fish. Forcing shy or reserved people into mandatory hugging is not cool.

Where the fellows seem to be more intent on hugging their sisters in Christ than their brethren, my thinking is “greet each other with a holy kiss…yeah, right.” There are guys who use the hug-friendly zone of church as carte blanche, that is all there is to it. I have heard enough guys talking when they think there are no women around; I know how it goes. Some “struggle” to maintain pure thoughts towards the holy women around them; some, though, not so much.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

My entire point is that while this fellow might be totally innocent–and I think the OP believes his wife is totally innocent–that doesn’t mean he can’t be inappropriate or that he must be believed innocent “until proven guilty” or that he might not be on a road to starting an unfortunate romantic affection that neither party ever intended. When that happens, it is just a bad situation. What is worse than when a good friend falls in love with a good friend who is married to another man? What treacherous feelings those are for a man who values the bond of marriage to feel! It is very painful, and yet entirely avoidable if hubris is avoided.

If the OP is trying to get the fellow convicted of anything, he doesn’t have the evidence. There is nothing here that cannot possibly have an innocent explanation. He’s more like a guy who sees someone driving slowly through his neighborhood and admiring his house who is getting the feeling that he needs to remember to lock the doors at night and turn the alarm on when he leaves.

Most locks only keep the honest people honest, but considering the heartbreak that goes with crimes of the heart between otherwise honest people, I think those locks are worth having in place. No one ought to take such locks as an insult. It is like what our pastor once told us about not leaving purses out and available during Communion. When you keep your purse out of the reach of a pickpocket, you’re not accusing anyone, but rather doing your duty to remove obvious near occasions of sin for the benefit of your neighbor.

That’s what I mean to advocate for: not that the OP see every man who hugs his wife as a conscious-free predator of the kind he has known, but rather that he asks his wife to see even decent men as a weak sinners like himself, and to encourage his wife to keep boundaries that remind them that they are her platonic friends and her spiritual friends–that is, her brothers–and no more nor ever any more than that, lest they fail to see her as the daughter of the Lord and holy woman that she is, and instead see her in some way as an object of their desire, instead.

This doesn’t just happen automatically. It requires boundaries, it requires vigilance, and it requires a willingness to hear when others warn that a boundary is near to being crossed, rather than always being one’s own authority in an area where those involved are probably the most blind to the real situation, rather than the most aware. That is all I am saying.

None of that is in conflict with what I or anyone else is saying. Of course a couple should set healthy boundaries. Heck, the boundaries my husband and I have are a lot more stringent than most people’s, but it works for us.

What we are saying is that the OP has such a negative and distorted view of the world, and men in particular, and such a lack of respect for his wife’s strength and morals, that until those issues are resolved mutually agreed upon and healthy boundaries will be impossible. If side hugs from friends are sexual advances and over 50% of men actively want to “steal” his wife, he has issues that he needs to work on NOW, because those issues are more of a threat to his marital happiness than his wife’s happily married photographer buddy.

 

[EasterJoy]

None of that is in conflict with what I or anyone else is saying. Of course a couple should set healthy boundaries. Heck, the boundaries my husband and I have are a lot more stringent than most people’s, but it works for us.

What we are saying is that the OP has such a negative and distorted view of the world, and men in particular, and such a lack of respect for his wife’s strength and morals, that until those issues are resolved mutually agreed upon and healthy boundaries will be impossible. If side hugs from friends are sexual advances and over 50% of men actively want to “steal” his wife, he has issues that he needs to work on NOW, because those issues are more of a threat to his marital happiness than his wife’s happily married photographer buddy.

OK…back up. Look at the posts, like #7:

"*He might not have nefarious intentions towards my wife, in fact I don’t think he does.

I suspect he’s in some sort of competition with me…I feel like I’m being outsourced*!"

and

“Really, what this comes down to is what is acceptable in a friendship between two people of the opposite sex who are married.”

Do you see that he does not oppose the idea that married women can legitimately have male friends? The fellow in question is not a friend of the family, but a co-worker who is showing the wife a lot of attention by doing things that the husband would normally do for her. The husband is uncomfortable with it. I’m not surprised and I surely don’t think his discomfort bodes badly for the future of his marriage. He’s reacting as many spouses would.

I think if a woman were posting here that a woman at her husband’s work was doing things for her husband that happened to be those same things that the wife normally did to show her affection for him, we’d be more understanding of how she might have her feelings hurt, and that this co-worker is crossing a line better left uncrossed. We’d want the husband to quit letting this woman exercise “one-upmanship” aimed at making herself look good at his wife’s expense, but would expect him to prefer his wife and ask the co-worker to cool it.

There is also a lot of opinions that are based on other sentiments the OP has expressed in other threads. There is a saying in medicine: People with mental illnesses still get sick, sometimes. Just because you think he is being irrational on other threads is not a reason to carry that over to this thread.

 

[hurting]

None of that is in conflict with what I or anyone else is saying. Of course a couple should set healthy boundaries. Heck, the boundaries my husband and I have are a lot more stringent than most people’s, but it works for us.

What we are saying is that the OP has such a negative and distorted view of the world, and men in particular, and such a lack of respect for his wife’s strength and morals, that until those issues are resolved mutually agreed upon and healthy boundaries will be impossible. If side hugs from friends are sexual advances and over 50% of men actively want to “steal” his wife, he has issues that he needs to work on NOW, because those issues are more of a threat to his marital happiness than his wife’s happily married photographer buddy.

You and the others who share your view have developed a notion that the OP is somehow deficient and therefore you frame his every concern in that light. As EJ indicated, just because an overprotective person rightly points outs an obvious danger, or even a precondition to danger, does not make that person’s observations invalid.

The point that the ‘men and women as friends’ crowd ignores is that while the interaction between can in many cases be explained away as perfectly platonic on its face - even legitimately - it invites undue risk into the marital relationship. Indeed when you place boundaries on male-female relationships for the sake of the marital one, you are unequivocally acknowledging that there is something patently and immutably different between a man-man or woman-woman friendship than one between a man and a woman. A married person who tries to maintain a ‘friendship’ with a person of the opposite sex in a manner anything like what most people realize as true friendship (san strictures realted to spedning time alone together, etc.) is inviting trouble to his/her marriage.

EJ also makes a great point about people not being really wild about heaering when boundaries are being crossed - even ones they agreed to.

 

[Evania]

It is a common logical fallacy that if an over-protective person sees a danger, then no danger must exist.

BTW, do you find that the men at your parish just walk up and hug you a lot? I have many men at church that I count as good friends and who have other women as good friends, and I’d say this is something I usually only see when there is a reason–the woman had a big loss in her life recently, her husband is seriously ill, or the two have not seen each other for a long time.

I have also found over my lifetime that I am not the first person to “get it” when a guy has a thing for me. I’m just looking at the as friends, but somehow guys see a ready openness for friendship as some kind of sexual flattery. If you don’t know anyone who was the last to figure it out when some guy was interested in her, you have to be in the minority. I’ve learned the hard way (meaning figuring out too late the impression I was creating) to be careful what kinds of physical gestures I make.

I never said I subscribed to any such fallacy. I will say that it’s also a fallacy in logic to believe the opposite: that if an over-protective person perceives danger than it must be 100% true, all of the time. Again, I’m not going to tear into what could be an innocent man, if this is all that the OP has to go on. Is there more to this story? Possibly. Based on what’s been shared though, I don’t see an untrustworthy wife or a group of guilty men. If the wife isn’t too concerned, why should you?

As for the question of hugs, what is wrong with a side hug? There is absolutely nothing sexual or flattering about a side hug. What are the odds of all the men at the OP’s church finding his wife sexually attractive? It sounds more plausible to suggest that the husband is seeing danger everywhere. It is no way helpful to this man’s marriage to suggest that he tighten his grasp on a wife who by his account, is trustworthy, especially when you said in an earlier post:

Quote:If you save the goose from the fox by suffocating the goose, that defeats the purpose of being protective.

To be honest, I agree with a lot of your positions, but we can’t be blind to the other glaring issues in this case, namely his distorted views on men and women. Should we be so quick to defend the OP, and toss the characters of other men we don’t know under the bus? These men have done nothing wrong, and yet the OP wants to “horsewhip” them.

Sorry, I do not buy that all men are pigs. Are there untrustworthy men out there? Sure. Although, there are far more red flags with the husband’s jealousy, than with the innocent men that happen to cross his wife’s path.