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Fairwinds
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they see it as a gay pass, they’re just cutting you some slack.
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Prodigal_Son
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Fairwinds,
You tell me “I should be afraid to” speak of my need for affection to my friends, having previously in this conversation implied that such a need deserves complete destruction. And now you are criticizing me for being dismissive and insulting? Are you quite serious?
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Prodigal_Son
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How kind of them. :hug3:
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Joe_5859
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I bet you didn’t know that Fairwinds knows your friends better than you do.
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Fairwinds
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I said I’d beat the tar out of someone who made a gay pass at me. I excluded you from that comment because that might be construed as a personal insult, and because I don’t know you and because you’re not about to do that anyway.
I’d be careful, if I were in your shoes, of making what most men consider a gay pass, regardless of how you see it and your friends notwithstanding.
I also suggested that, for the sake of your kids who** will** be mercilessly bullied if not hopelessly confused, you keep this buttoned up.
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Boundless
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I was thinking the exact same thing. Even if he didn’t direct his comment directly at anyone here, that’s beside the point. The point is that it’s apparently perfectly acceptable to go about “destroying” men who try to cuddle with you, even if for all you know they didn’t mean it in a gay way, but how dare you make a sarcastic smiley face on an internet forum?! That would be rude.
And speaking of “dismissive”, no matter how many times we point out that it’s not a “gay pass” inherently unless it’s intended to be one, and that this is all a matter of perspective, he keeps insisting “It is a gay pass” as if that’s just a fact that somehow we’ve missed. Dismissing our opinions out of hand, literally, and then calling you dismissive for using a smiley. Wow.
Also something I was thinking. It’s funny how some people think they can speak for their entire gender based on their own inclinations or that of their group of friends. “If I and my friends would be disgusted by a man needing physical affection from us, then that must mean all men would.” This implies that he and his friends are the go-to standard for a normal “manly” response, so that all or most men’s reactions will surely conform to theirs.I bet you didn’t know that Fairwinds knows your friends better than you do.
Don’t get me wrong; telling Prodigal_Son to weigh his options carefully and be sure his friends would really still accept him before telling them, would be one thing, that would just be a show of concern and a warning of caution; but to say, almost as if with omniscient authority, that even if Prodigal_Son’s friends react nicely they’ll really only be cutting him slack is a whole other animal. Is it really so hard to believe that not every man is like that? Prodigal_Son’s friends could hypothetically be that sort (but I doubt it, as he would know better than we here on the internet), but to be so sure that they WILL be like that just because they are men, even IF they “pretend” to be accepting, that’s way out of line and comes across as incredibly smug in assuming that anyone who’s a “normal” man will feel like you yourself would. You may speak for yourself, and for those who have also made it clear or obvious to you how they would feel about this; but you may not speak for all men, or even any man besides those who have made it clear or obvious to you personally how they would react, just because you believe “that’s how normal men are.”
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Fairwinds
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no doubt about that in the least.
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thewanderer
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Not everyone is incapable of seperating physical affection from romantic love.
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TheRealJuliane
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Let’s see…this is hypothetical, but may be edifying.
Let’s say I have a friend, who is married to a man but feels attracted to women also.
I know she wants physical affection from women, although she says she is trying to handle her same-sex attraction without sinning.
I also know she is physically attracted to women and gets aroused by being physically in contact with women.
She tells me that she would love to have more physical contact with ME. Perhaps she does this while also touching me in some way, putting her hand on my arm or my back, giving me a shoulder squeeze, etc.
Yes, I would take that as a pass, and I would think that she meant she wanted to “get close to me” as in, be aroused by me even if we don’t have gay sex. No thank you!
Unlike Fairwinds, I would not beat her to a pulp for making the pass, but I would begin to distance myself from that person and would never be around her except in very limited circumstances. It is not just that I don’t want to experience a gay pass - but I am also concerned because I do not want to be involved in anything that causes her to sin.
I think you are minimizing the effect that this would have on your friendships. I’d suggest an experiment but I think it would not be wise to carry it out.
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Prodigal_Son
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Juliane,
First of all, I don’t get turned on by guys touching me. If a man touches me, I feel very uncomfortable, and want to get away. My friends know that I’m not comfortable. They also know that my “love language”, as it were, is physical touch. They also know that same-sex attraction is connected to men feeling too little affection from other men, and that real affection is a balm, not a stimulant.
If you don’t know these things, that’s fine. I assure you I would not ask for friends who do not know these things to show me love in this way.
In sum, I feel like you’ve fallen for the lie that physical affection equals sexual intimacy. Or at least it does, unless it’s between family members or two straight people of the same sex.
And we wonder why gay people reject Catholicism! We are literally untouchables.
First of all, I don’t get turned on by guys touching me. If a man touches me, I feel very uncomfortable, and want to get away. My friends know that I’m not comfortable. They also know that my “love language”, as it were, is physical touch. They also know that same-sex attraction is connected to men feeling too little affection from other men, and that real affection is a balm, not a stimulant.
If you don’t know these things, that’s fine. I assure you I would not ask for friends who do not know these things to show me love in this way.
This added detail is a really strange to me. I mean, look, your description makes it sound like it IS a come-on. Well, duh, if you describe it as a come-on, then by all means, it should be rejected.
In sum, I feel like you’ve fallen for the lie that physical affection equals sexual intimacy. Or at least it does, unless it’s between family members or two straight people of the same sex.
And we wonder why gay people reject Catholicism! We are literally untouchables.
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Prodigal_Son
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TheRealJuliane
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So what exactly are we talking about then?? You feel uncomfortable being touched by other men, yet you WANT to feel uncomfortable more often??? I am afraid that you’ve completely confused me.Juliane,
First of all, I don’t get turned on by guys touching me. If a man touches me, I feel very uncomfortable, and want to get away. My friends know that I’m not comfortable. They also know that my “love language”, as it were, is physical touch. They also know that same-sex attraction is connected to men feeling too little affection from other men, and that real affection is a balm, not a stimulant.
If you don’t know these things, that’s fine. I assure you I would not ask for friends who do not know these things to show me love in this way.
Tell me exactly what your ideal situation would be. Hugs from other men? Cuddling with clothing on? Massages? And you think that this would help you, what? Feel loved and cared for by a man? If you are attracted to men, do you not think this might also lead to an emotional and/or physical attachment to said men/man?
How would you ask for physical affection from one of your friends? That was my scenario, a bisexual woman asking a straight woman for physical affection, “I’d love it if you could hug me more often,” and the straight woman responds with, “Um, no thanks!”
I do not get this entire thread.
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thewanderer
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I am a straight woman and I hug my straight male friends. Does that mean that when we hug each other we are all being turned on and showing innapropriate romantic and sexual attraction to each other? Of course not. The thing is physical affection can be used to show both philia and eros. sometimes it is used to simply show philia, sometimes simply eros, and other times both. Now, clearly, a physical sign of affection between people of the same gender that is meant as a sign of eros is wrong no matter what. The thing is that it is possible to have physical signs of affection which only signify phillia, even if they are between two people who are attracted to each others genders. (ie, a straight man and a straight woman or two homosexual men or women.) Its possible for me and my male friends to hug while only displaying philia. Why in the world would it be impossible for the OP to do the same?
As for the confusion about the OP wanting phsyical signs of philia from other men yet feeling uncomfortable when touched by them, I believe he was saying that he has a deep-seated need for philia from other men, which is best understood by him through physical signs of that philia (think of the 5 love languages). However, at the same time, he has also developed psychological aversion to such physical signs because of past events. So he is stuck in a peculiarly difficult situation. He has a need that can only be fulfilled most satisfactorially through an action which he has grown an aversion to. Yeah, us humans aren’t always straightforward beings, we get messed up psychologically and emotionally from time to time. We make things difficult for ourselves. But that doesn’t mean that he wants to be uncomfortable. What he wants is to be able to have his need met without feeling uncomfortable about it. Does that make any more sense? (also, prodigalson, feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood you at all)
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TheRealJuliane
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thewanderer, I really just want to hear from the OP, that’s why I responded to him with a quote. He’s the one who started this thread in the first place. I want to know what he wants from other men.
He’s the one who started this thread in the first place. I want to know what he wants from other men.
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Prodigal_Son
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I guess I understand what confused you, although I think things would become much clearer if you reread (or read) a number of posts from me and Boundless about physical touch. It’s complicated.
So when I said “I don’t get turned on by guys touching me”, I didn’t mean that I wouldn’t, in the right circumstance. I just don’t spend any time in that circumstance, thank God. When men do touch me, it’s out of brotherly affection. It does make me uncomfortable. At the same time, I need it.
I think this comparison might work: Imagine a child who spent his whole childhood getting beaten. Every time his parents touched him, it would be to beat him. Now, I ask you: does this child have any less need for human touch than other people? No, probably far more. But if you try to touch him lovingly, he will think you are going to beat him; he will misinterpret.
That’s how it is with me. I need affection from men, but when men are affectionate toward me, I recoil. Why do I recoil? Because I – *subconsciously *-- associate my desire to be touched with my desire for sexual contact with a man. Consciously, I know that I am not being touched with sexual intent, but I am psychologically stuck in a rut.
I don’t think the solution is to not be touched affectionately by men. You wouldn’t say that the beaten child should go untouched, certainly? But I’m not sure what the solution is.
Not massages or cuddling, since I’m not sure I’m capable of disattaching that from the sexual cultural encoding. Hugs, yes, but not perfunctory hugs. Or just being physical – jabbing, prodding, patting on the back. Some men can totally pull off ruffling another guy’s hair without it being awkward in the slightest. That kind of thing.
As I said, I’m not really comfortable with those types of touch. But I do think I need to learn to be comfortable with them, since I experience love through touch.
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Prodigal_Son
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Wow, you’re good! This is exactly it.
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TheRealJuliane
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I see. You have a real dilemma. On one hand, you desire more physical contact with men. On the other hand, you are afraid of it and it makes you uncomfortable, for various reasons (the attraction).I guess I understand what confused you, although I think things would become much clearer if you reread (or read) a number of posts from me and Boundless about physical touch. It’s complicated.
So when I said “I don’t get turned on by guys touching me”, I didn’t mean that I wouldn’t, in the right circumstance. I just don’t spend any time in that circumstance, thank God. When men do touch me, it’s out of brotherly affection. It does make me uncomfortable. At the same time, I need it.
I think this comparison might work: Imagine a child who spent his whole childhood getting beaten. Every time his parents touched him, it would be to beat him. Now, I ask you: does this child have any less need for human touch than other people? No, probably far more. But if you try to touch him lovingly, he will think you are going to beat him; he will misinterpret.
That’s how it is with me. I need affection from men, but when men are affectionate toward me, I recoil. Why do I recoil? Because I – *subconsciously *-- associate my desire to be touched with my desire for sexual contact with a man. Consciously, I know that I am not being touched with sexual intent, but I am psychologically stuck in a rut.
I don’t think the solution is to not be touched affectionately by men. You wouldn’t say that the beaten child should go untouched, certainly? But I’m not sure what the solution is.
Not massages or cuddling, since I’m not sure I’m capable of disattaching that from the sexual cultural encoding. Hugs, yes, but not perfunctory hugs. Or just being physical – jabbing, prodding, patting on the back. Some men can totally pull off ruffling another guy’s hair without it being awkward in the slightest. That kind of thing.
As I said, I’m not really comfortable with those types of touch. But I do think I need to learn to be comfortable with them, since I experience love through touch.
I take it that you have no siblings, no brothers that is? That is the kind of thing that brothers can do with each other - hugs, slaps, etc.
What if you had a therapist who could pretend to be a brother? Would you get to a point where you would feel satisfied, or is this always going to be a hunger that cannot be satisfied? And if it is that sort of hunger, why would you pursue it, knowing that it will likely only get stronger the more you chase it?
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Prodigal_Son
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Yup.
I have two older brothers, but we don’t see each other a lot. Also, on the whole, my brothers don’t really express themselves physically. We’re an awfully cerebral group.
It’s not just about touch. It’s about touch with real affection behind it.
I don’t think it will get stronger as I chase it, though I don’t think it will be completely satisfied either. Comparison: My daughter needs a tremendous amount of verbal affection, more than I have to give. But surely it’s better to satisfy that need partially than to ignore it.
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TheRealJuliane
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Yes, but verbal affection is not a sin, either.
So you need caring touch from a male. Really, you want your dad. And you can’t ever have that kind of father figure again. So the way to get that satisfied is to BE that kind of father and give that kind of physical affection to your children, no?
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Prodigal_Son
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That’s a bit like saying, “I want a Ferrari, so I’ll work at a Ferrari shop.” Giving affection is wonderful and consoling, but I need to be on the receiving end.
You seem very concerned that this is simply an opening for sin in my life. Perhaps informing you that my wife is very much on the same page will help reassure you. She sees me close up, and she’s not worried about me seeking affection in inappropriate ways – or getting beat up by some friend who thinks I’m hitting on him.
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