Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

[TheRealJuliane]

That’s a bit like saying, “I want a Ferrari, so I’ll work at a Ferrari shop.” Giving affection is wonderful and consoling, but I need to be on the receiving end.

You seem very concerned that this is simply an opening for sin in my life. Perhaps informing you that my wife is very much on the same page will help reassure you. She sees me close up, and she’s not worried about me seeking affection in inappropriate ways – or getting beat up by some friend who thinks I’m hitting on him.

You seem to have an answer for everything. I just have one other question. These needs of yours - do they glorify God in any way? It sounds as though you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what YOU need and how YOU are affected by your SSA. To the point where that has become a very big part of your identity, which is one reason you want to reach out to help others who may also be identifying with this need. I think you should spend less time seeking after this perceived need for physical affection, less time inside your own head, and shift to meeting other people’s true needs. You can call that “denial” if you want, but I think all of this focusing on what you DON’T have and DIDN’T get just circles back around to too much attention on that aspect of your life.

Why don’t you write a book about something else?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You seem to have an answer for everything. I just have one other question. These needs of yours - do they glorify God in any way? It sounds as though you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what YOU need and how YOU are affected by your SSA. To the point where that has become a very big part of your identity, which is one reason you want to reach out to help others who may also be identifying with this need. I think you should spend less time seeking after this perceived need for physical affection, less time inside your own head, and shift to meeting other people’s true needs. You can call that “denial” if you want, but I think all of this focusing on what you DON’T have and DIDN’T get just circles back around to too much attention on that aspect of your life.

Why don’t you write a book about something else?

The more I pray, think and talk about my brokenness – which includes SSA, but SSA is not really the core issue in it – the less I sin. I’ve focused on SSA in this thread, because it is a thread about SSA. If the topic of the thread were my personal issues, you would have heard me talk a lot about my dad’s accident, and my raging against God and against the drunk driver who hit my dad, and about how nobody stepped into my dad’s place and showed me how to be a man. That’s where God has me in prayer.

I wonder how you think people come out of such brokenness. They have to meet someone else who is also broken; that’s how it has worked for me. Putting a band-aid on it and hiding my wounds didn’t work. So if I can help others by revealing my brokenness, I’m all for it.

As for my having an answer for everything, let me say this. God is very clearly leading me on this process, and He has shown me everything I know. Some things I said are just me and my flawed understanding of things, but I truly believe that God has given me some wisdom in this area, as well.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The more I pray, think and talk about my brokenness – which includes SSA, but SSA is not really the core issue in it – the less I sin. I’ve focused on SSA in this thread, because it is a thread about SSA. If the topic of the thread were my personal issues, you would have heard me talk a lot about my dad’s accident, and my raging against God and against the drunk driver who hit my dad, and about how nobody stepped into my dad’s place and showed me how to be a man. That’s where God has me in prayer.

**I wonder how you think people come out of such brokenness. They have to meet someone else who is also broken; that’s how it has worked for me. Putting a band-aid on it and hiding my wounds didn’t work. So if I can help others by revealing my brokenness, I’m all for it.
**
As for my having an answer for everything, let me say this. God is very clearly leading me on this process, and He has shown me everything I know. Some things I said are just me and my flawed understanding of things, but I truly believe that God has given me some wisdom in this area, as well.

Does it heal broken bones to be in the company of other broken bones? Does it help brain injuries to form a group of other brain injuries? Should anyone with a handicap only hang out with others in a similar condition? Why keep dwelling on your challenges and deficits? I think you could show others a path upward and away from the focus on SSA but you seem to have a raison d’etre in it.

 

[Fairwinds]

…
I wonder how you think people come out of such brokenness. They have to meet someone else who is also broken; that’s how it has worked for me. Putting a band-aid on it and hiding my wounds didn’t work. So if I can help others by revealing my brokenness, I’m all for it…

honestly, it seems you’re reveling in your SSA.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Does it heal broken bones to be in the company of other broken bones? Does it help brain injuries to form a group of other brain injuries? Should anyone with a handicap only hang out with others in a similar condition?

Not “only”. Juliane, I have had exactly ONE face-to-face conversation in my life with another man with SSA, in which we talked about SSA. I’m not exactly ODing on this stuff.

But does it heal broken bones to be in the company of other broken bones?

YES! A thousand times yes! This is why AA works, this is why blind people hang out together, this is why there are associations for people with brain injuries. Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones, bones upon bones upon bones all in need of healing, and the healer revives them. Somebody gathered those bones together, and gathering those bones together was a work of love.

My father has a closed-head injury, and my parents started an organization of artists who have serious disabilities, and you have no idea what a blessing such a gathering of broken people is – both for each other, and for the “unbroken” world.

There is one thing you’re right about, though; at the risk of being a bit vulnerable, I will reveal it. I do need to let go of something in myself. In my heart of hearts, I think of my SSA as a special and important thing about me – not my identity, but a not-unwelcome trait. Despite my heartfelt desire to avoid sin, I *like *being the way I am, and I’m not always open to God changing me. I acknowledge that this is a major defect in myself, and I am working with God so that he will soften my heart. God can work through a person having his arm amputated, but that does not mean that lacking an arm is a good thing.

That said, I don’t think I should suddenly stop thinking about helping other sexual sinners, as God heals me.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You could show them a way THROUGH that valley and into another place, if you could stop allowing this to be such an important part of your identity. You wouldn’t have to write a book, either. You could just pray to God for those people to be led to you, and just your life would be enough of an example. No book necessary, no celebrity from “coming out,” though.

Thanks for admitting what some of us intuited during this thread. There is some ego wrapped up in this endeavor.

 

[jimmy]

I am a joyfully married Catholic man with an ever-increasing number of children. From childhood, I have experienced a strong attraction to males, and this attraction has not ever really gone away. Unlike many men with SSA, I am also attracted to women, most particularly to my wife.

When I married my wife, I was in a place of great freedom, in terms of sexual sin. I was open with her about my attractions and my past, of course. Nevertheless, only three people (immediate family members) besides her knew my story, since SSA is most definitely a sinful disposition that loves to hide. Over time, little by little, I fell back into a pornography addiction after we were married. My wife knew something about this, but I only let her in partly. My attitudes toward myself became completely covered in shame.

Recently, God has been pulling me out of that mire. I’ve begun to pray for an hour daily, and spend time with my heavenly Father. (Men with SSA, in particular, need one-on-one time with their Dad!) I have come fully into the light with a number of brothers and sisters in Christ who are not my family members. It is SUCH a relief and a blessing that I don’t have to hide!

But, in some sense, I still do. Among single people, there are an increasing number of people with SSA who are fully open about their struggles and their commitment to live chaste lives. (I’m thinking of people like Wesley Hill and Eve Tushnet, among others). These people have helped to show me that an attraction is not shameful, that there’s nothing wrong with being openly broken. In the meantime, however, I find that our culture – even, to some extent, Catholic culture – has only one category for me: since I am married to a woman and attracted to men, I must be a closeted homosexual that is wreaking havoc on my wife and children.

This social judgment becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. Society has a notion of you, and you live up to it.

But not when you have God’s light in your life. In God’s light, I have realized that my temptations are nothing to be ashamed of, and hiding them is just plain stupid. Ideally, I think, married men who struggle with same-sex attraction would be just as open with these struggles as married men who struggle with ogling women in advertisements. It’s not something you shout from street corners, but you would share it readily in the right circumstances.

As it is, I think there are testimonies out there from married men who struggled with SSA, but it’s always in the past tense: “I used to be attracted to men, but now my wife and I are the whole world to each other.” Yeah, right. (OK, maybe I’m cynical, but that just seems to neat and tidy an ending.)

I expect that some people will tell me something like this: Imagine you “went public” about this in some form, and your kids found out someday? Imagine how ashamed your wife and kids would feel to be associated with you? Do they deserve that shame?

But these objections miss the point! It’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s a temptation, like any other. Would you be ashamed if your children found out that you once wanted to shoplift something? That you once felt a strong urge to strangle a driver who cut you off? What’s the difference between these cases and SSA?

Thoughts?

There is no reason to share them. You love your wife and are attracted to her, so it is irrelevant who else you are attracted to. You have no intention of cheating on her, so why would you talk about it?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Thanks for admitting what some of us intuited during this thread. There is some ego wrapped up in this endeavor.

Grrrr. I hate swallowing any portion of my pride. Thanks for not being triumphalist, and, frankly, thanks for your persistence.

You could show them a way THROUGH that valley and into another place, if you could stop allowing this to be such an important part of your identity. You wouldn’t have to write a book, either. You could just pray to God for those people to be led to you, and just your life would be enough of an example. No book necessary, no celebrity from “coming out,” though.

I’m stubborn enough to say this: I still think that *somebody *needs to start shouting about this stuff, because ordinary people believe it to be shameful even though it’s not sin. I do think that there’s a lot growth needed in my life before I could consider being that somebody. I hope someone beats me to it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Grrrr. I hate swallowing any portion of my pride. Thanks for not being triumphalist, and, frankly, thanks for your persistence.

I’m stubborn enough to say this: I still think that *somebody *needs to start shouting about this stuff, because ordinary people believe it to be shameful even though it’s not sin. I do think that there’s a lot growth needed in my life before I could consider being that somebody. I hope someone beats me to it.

It’s OK, I do not feel superior to you in any way, and we all have our crosses to bear. I am humble enough not to lord something over another person. Every time I have done that in the past, God shows me another one of my flaws, so I have to remember, none of us are sinless but Jesus. “Winning” was not why I was questioning you, and I hope you can feel my empathy through the internet.

 

[Boundless]

I still think that *somebody *needs to start shouting about this stuff, because ordinary people believe it to be shameful even though it’s not sin. I do think that there’s a lot growth needed in my life before I could consider being that somebody. I hope someone beats me to it.

I just want to encourage you by reaffirming that I agree with this paragraph. The very fact that people (probably correctly) do assume that you’d have so much trouble if you were open about this is proof positive that men and women with SSA are considered somehow more shameful than people without it. If that were not true, then knowing a man in your parish had SSA would be no big deal, yet if everyone here is right (and they may well be, not about the morality of opening up, but about some of the consequences of doing so), then obviously it would be a huge deal to most people, who would shun the man, whisper about him behind his back, hide their children from him, shame his own children, and possibly feel so threatened by him as to be violent if he dared to draw too close for their comfort. If that’s still true, something needs to change.

The Catechism calls SSA a disorder, which at first sounds insulting to some, but is in fact a term of sympathy: If it’s a disorder, it’s not something we blame the one suffering it for, we do not “shame” them. Finding out that a friend, relative, or neighbor has SSA should not stigmatize that person, nor should finding out someone has other temptations. Because that person has not done anything to be “punished” for in simply having the SSA.

Let me say this: I hate having SSA insofar as I’m ever tempted to sin by it (as opposed to the need for affection, which I don’t consider to be SSA, though SSA men often have it; that I think can be natural even in a non-SSA man, our culture just suppresses it). I’m not proud of having SSA, it’s a grave inconvenience, a heavy cross, it makes me feel like I’m somehow “different” from other men and not in a good way. If I think men should be able to open up about SSA, it’s not because I want them to be proud of it, but rather unashamed. There’s a difference. You can be unashamed of something but still hate it, just as a cancer patient hates the cancer but shouldn’t be ashamed.

I believe that most men with SSA struggle gravely with their sense of masculinity, of being accepted as an equal by “the guys” or regarded as “manly” by the women in their lives, at least if those men and women knew their struggle. Silence doesn’t solve this: If they are allowed to go through life thinking that the only reason men and women alike respect them is because they don’t know about the SSA, then that respect will not make them feel anymore like “real men,” because they’ll still feel like it’s not really them, with all their brokenness, that those men and women accept, but a fantasy, a front, an alter ego. And only if they can find a sense of real community that considers the SSA to be “unfortunate, but nothing to be ashamed of,” will most of them be able to truly claim the masculinity that, as men, God intends them to have. Without that masculinity, men with SSA will continue to feel “failed” somehow, and this will make “acting out” (whether by pornography or otherwise or even something unrelated to the SSA) all the easier: When you feel like you’re not much of a man anyway, it’s hard to continue trying.

I do not enjoy my SSA. I do not cherish it or revel in it. But experience and observance of the struggles of others tells me that God often does not choose to take this thorn away, and it is a lifelong thing. If it were “struggling with being attracted to women other than my wife” it wouldn’t be nearly as shameful to my masculinity, because most men can relate to that struggle, I’d know they’d accept me as their equal in masculinity. That’s why the SSA is so prominent in our lives: Because it obstructs our very sense of masculinity, of “fitting in as one of the guys” (something men tend to really need), far more than most struggles obstruct one’s gender identity. The desire for a world where men with SSA could be open and accepted (not by condoning their sins, but by not shaming the SSA itself) is about being able to know that a Christian culture that says “It doesn’t make you any less of a man” is willing to put its money where its mouth is by not stigmatizing individuals who struggle with this. As long as SSA is something men have to be afraid to admit beyond a very close circle of friends, then we obviously haven’t arrived at that world yet. Some people–a lot of people, people both with and without SSA–somehow, somewhere, are going to have to take some of the first terrifying steps toward that world’s realization before it even has a hypothetical chance of arriving. Will one person make a big change single-handedly? No. But if everyone who might have tried backed off, then the change is definitely not going to happen.

We can tell men with SSA that they’re just as much men as men without SSA until we’re blue in the face. But if we don’t walk the walk when we find out a man we know has SSA (and if we were walking that walk, he’d have nothing to fear in being open about it), then all of our stigmatizing signals will contradict our loving words, and doubtlessly the man with SSA is going to absorb the message of those signals far more deeply than he will ever absorb our empty platitudes.

NOTE: None of these critiques are aimed so much at people posting in this thread (most of whom have been cordial and concerned, if particularly frank) as at those whom you’re warning us about, many of them supposedly “Christian” I imagine. Those warning against being open about this may be just warning us about a grim reality, but those out in “the real world” who permit, enforce, and promote the continuing of that grim reality are certainly wrong.

 

[Fairwinds]

…I believe that most men with SSA struggle gravely with their sense of masculinity, of being accepted as an equal by “the guys” …

that’s quite true, they would not be accepted as an equal.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It’s OK, I do not feel superior to you in any way, and we all have our crosses to bear. I am humble enough not to lord something over another person. Every time I have done that in the past, God shows me another one of my flaws, so I have to remember, none of us are sinless but Jesus. “Winning” was not why I was questioning you, and I hope you can feel my empathy through the internet.

Yup.

I have a very strong impulse to proceed to reiterate several things I think you’ve got wrong, in our discussion. But I will bite my lip, since the only reason I would continue talking would be to win, not to foster relationships or to grow in holiness.

I hate biting my lip.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If I think men should be able to open up about SSA, it’s not because I want them to be proud of it, but rather unashamed. There’s a difference. You can be unashamed of something but still hate it, just as a cancer patient hates the cancer but shouldn’t be ashamed.

Hear, hear!

To say that SSA is something someone “suffers” from is a key, I think. Notice the passivity of the word “suffers”. Similarly, a person who was abused as a child feels great shame about it, even though there’s nothing to be ashamed of. (Of course, it would be nonsense to be proud of one’s being abused.) It is something suffered.

The constant experience of those who suffer something is that they need to move from the passivity to activity, in order to be freed. Where is this empowerment, for Christian men with same-sex attraction? Obviously, it will not be an empowerment to sin; it will be an empowerment to do some very significant work in the kingdom of God. Freeing captives of SSA from bondage is such a work. But surely there are other works, and more important works. In order to fully engage in any of these works, however, the shame must be gone.

So we need some voices to shout it away!

Without that masculinity, men with SSA will continue to feel “failed” somehow, and this will make “acting out” (whether by pornography or otherwise or even something unrelated to the SSA) all the easier: When you feel like you’re not much of a man anyway, it’s hard to continue trying.

And this is why I love the idea of such men making a courageous stand, in the Church. Because courage is an identifiably masculine virtue. I feel like Satan wants to keep us self-centered little cowards, cooped up in our holes, with our sin there to numb us if we start to feel less than manly. And look, if that’s where we stay, then we’re not real men, and we don’t deserved to be called real men. We’re emasculated by sexual sin. (This happens to straight men, as well. Porn makes men bad lovers, since it makes them passive.)

But we don’t have to stay cooped up in our holes. That is empowerment. It is not about being proud of sin. It is about being proud to be a man, a man who does not let his fears control him.

(I do not talk here about what precise steps should be taken. I don’t know what they are.)

Some people–a lot of people, people both with and without SSA–somehow, somewhere, are going to have to take some of the first terrifying steps toward that world’s realization before it even has a hypothetical chance of arriving. Will one person make a big change single-handedly? No. But if everyone who might have tried backed off, then the change is definitely not going to happen.

Agreed.

A quote from A Man For All Seasons: "If we lived in a State where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good, and greed would make us saintly. And we’d live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose, to be human at all… why then perhaps we must stand fast a little – even at the risk of being heroes.”

 

[CatholicSheila]

If you were a gay or lesbian inclined person growing up in the world, do you think you would feel more or less empowered if you were aware of devout people with SSA that conformed to God’s law, or if you had no idea?

I have no idea how silence is suppose to be even remotely constructive.

This.

I’ve watched this thread with interest since it started and I’m surprised at the number of people who assume people who would admit to struggling with SAA to be a guidance to others are doing it for their own personal gain.

We are called to be a light on the hill. If those of us who do struggle to with SSA and are doing our best to live as the Church teaches don’t stand up and say “It’s doable”… then who is going to lead the next generation and teach them it isn’t shameful to be SSA, but it is a sin to act on it? The best people to do this are those who have done it and are doing it. This is why AA is so effective - having the support of others in the same boat. Right or wrong, a heterosexual doesn’t cut it. A heterosexual can tell me what I should do until they’re blue in the face but it isn’t as effective as someone who has been there, done that. And a heterosexual hasn’t. They’ve got their own struggles, but they’re not the same as mine.

Yet, we’re told to hide it. Tell nobody. It will destroy relationships and friendships. This is why I think so many Catholics do have extreme dislike of all homosexuals, chaste or otherwise. Not because of Church teaching but because we’re told our desires are so disordered we can’t even admit to having them in public without been shamed.

I don’t know if prodigal_son should be open about his struggles. I do wish more people were. I wish I had more courage to be open and honest. This cross would be a little easier to bear. And just maybe we could show others struggling that they do have options other than embracing the LGBT “lifestyle” or going into ex-gay therapy.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This.

I’ve watched this thread with interest since it started and I’m surprised at the number of people who assume people who would admit to struggling with SAA to be a guidance to others are doing it for their own personal gain.

We are called to be a light on the hill. If those of us who do struggle to with SSA and are doing our best to live as the Church teaches don’t stand up and say “It’s doable”… then who is going to lead the next generation and teach them it isn’t shameful to be SSA, but it is a sin to act on it? The best people to do this are those who have done it and are doing it. This is why AA is so effective - having the support of others in the same boat. Right or wrong, a heterosexual doesn’t cut it. A heterosexual can tell me what I should do until they’re blue in the face but it isn’t as effective as someone who has been there, done that. And a heterosexual hasn’t. They’ve got their own struggles, but they’re not the same as mine.

Yet, we’re told to hide it. Tell nobody. It will destroy relationships and friendships. This is why I think so many Catholics do have extreme dislike of all homosexuals, chaste or otherwise. Not because of Church teaching but because we’re told our desires are so disordered we can’t even admit to having them in public without been shamed.

I don’t know if prodigal_son should be open about his struggles. I do wish more people were. I wish I had more courage to be open and honest. This cross would be a little easier to bear. And just maybe we could show others struggling that they do have options other than embracing the LGBT “lifestyle” or going into ex-gay therapy.

Thanks, Sheila! Has anyone ever commented to you about your awesomeness today? If not, let me be the first.

Despite all the many things said in this thread, I am definitely still convinced I need to be open about my struggles – I’m just figuring out how. I’m part of a reasonably large Christian community, and I’m probably going to (with God’s help and reassurances) share about my SSA at an upcoming men’s retreat or marriage retreat. (Then everyone can stop sending their children to my house, because I have cooties. ).

Beyond that, who knows? I don’t think the discovery of mixed motives in myself automatically means that I shouldn’t do something more public. It just means I would need to undergo some definite “scrutinies” before proceeding. And I need to be very mindful of my wife and children.

A comment on an earlier part of this thread, where people said, “Why don’t you just start an anonymous blog?” I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me then, but let me say now that an anonymous blog completely misses the point. So I’m supposed to tell people not to be ashamed of their SSA, and all the while I am mortally terrified that someone might find out that I am the person blogging this? Isn’t that a bit bizarre? If I tell people to be unashamed, I’ve gotta walk the walk.

 

[Boundless]

This is why I think so many Catholics do have extreme dislike of all homosexuals, chaste or otherwise Not because of Church teaching but because we’re told our desires are so disordered we can’t even admit to having them in public without been shamed…

I really hate to say it, but a few select quotes on this very thread have demonstrated just how true this can be. Most people here have, thankfully, only said that “other” people would treat us with revulsion and spite. But a select few posters have made it clear that they themselves share in that revulsion, and not just as something they struggle with, but as something they speak of as if that’s how it ought to be. When you consider that this thread is about men with SSA who are indeed refusing to live gay lifestyles, it goes to show that even some right here among us bear a strong dislike toward even the most chaste of people with SSA. They even seem to grasp that SSA is not within our control, so the only vibe I can get from this is “Too bad, stinks to be you, but we’re disgusted with you all the same.” Reeeal Christlike.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

“Too bad, stinks to be you, but we’re disgusted with you all the same.”

Jesus Christ came to the lepers, and touched them. Where we find in ourselves disgust, that is precisely the place where we need to go, and show mercy.

Or we could just expect the lepers to stay in hiding, and keep grafting fake skin on themselves, instead of letting their wounds be healed in the light of Christian community.

 

[KateMonday]

Jesus Christ came to the lepers, and touched them. Where we find in ourselves disgust, that is precisely the place where we need to go, and show mercy.

Or we could just expect the lepers to stay in hiding, and keep grafting fake skin on themselves, instead of letting their wounds be healed in the light of Christian community.

slightly off-topic, but I can’t help it…

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/996725_208125019337248_1540949171_n.jpg

 

[Fairwinds]

Jesus Christ came to the lepers, and touched them. Where we find in ourselves disgust, that is precisely the place where we need to go, and show mercy…

do you see yourself as a leper?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

do you see yourself as a leper?

If you see me as disgusting, then yes, to you, I am a leper.

My own view on the matter is that I need healing, and I acknowledge that need. But I don’t find myself disgusting, only my sin.