married outside of the church

[anp1215]

Or dissolved via the Petrine or Pauline Privilege (if unbaptized).

Yes, I should have added that, just wanted to point out that lack of baptism does not automatically equal an invalid marriage (I think that’s a common misconception).

 

[Vico]

Wow, what a mess! Not only was I married to my current wife outside the church 18 years ago but I was previously married to my former wife in a Catholic service 35 years ago and divorced by her 9 years later after our twins were born and she left me primarily because she wasn’t happy being a mom and wanted to continue her career. Postpartum Depression? Anyway, now I have been back strong in the fold for several years and am now finding out that neither my wife nor I can receive communion. We were even lectors at mass until we recently found this out. I knew I couldn’t get married again in the Church but I didn’t know I couldn’t participate as a Catholic in Mass. I guess I thought Jesus forgave us of our sins and that we could become new again if we confessed our sins. I’ve tried Christian churches in the past and I guess that is always an option but I was really enjoying trying to be a good Catholic. I finally at the ripe old age of 59 think I was contributing to the Church in different ways. I really don’t know what our next step should be. Again, what a mess…

I recommend reading this:* e) Divorced Persons Who Have Remarried** - *84.

“Reconciliation in the sacrament of Penance which would open the way to the Eucharist, can only be granted to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when, for serious reasons, such as for example the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they “take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples.”(180)”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html

 

[joanofarc2008]

Wow, what a mess! Not only was I married to my current wife outside the church 18 years ago but I was previously married to my former wife in a Catholic service 35 years ago and divorced by her 9 years later after our twins were born and she left me primarily because she wasn’t happy being a mom and wanted to continue her career. Postpartum Depression? Anyway, now I have been back strong in the fold for several years and am now finding out that neither my wife nor I can receive communion. We were even lectors at mass until we recently found this out. I knew I couldn’t get married again in the Church but I didn’t know I couldn’t participate as a Catholic in Mass. I guess I thought Jesus forgave us of our sins and that we could become new again if we confessed our sins. I’ve tried Christian churches in the past and I guess that is always an option but I was really enjoying trying to be a good Catholic. I finally at the ripe old age of 59 think I was contributing to the Church in different ways. I really don’t know what our next step should be. Again, what a mess…

The best you can do is two things:

1. Live as brother and sister currently and the two of you will be able to participate in the Eucharist - speak to your pastor about this
2. Start your paperwork with your pastor to see if there is something that would have caused your first marriage to be declared invalid. You should at least take a look at it.

God bless, I am sorry you are in this predicament and I pray the Holy Spirit will guide you in the right direction.

 

[rek123]

Thank you for all the replies. We have an appointment this Friday with our Pastor. I have also contacted my previous wife and she is not opposed to an annulment. She just indicated she doesn’t want it based on fiction. I told her I totally agree because what would be the point?
I guess we must take this one step at a time and not be in a hurry. I would be willing to live currently in a “brother and sister” relationship if it meant we could fully participate in receiving communion and the other sacraments while we sort through this “mess”. Thank you all again and please pray for us during our quest to straighten this out so we can fully participate and contribute to our Catholic faith.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thank you for all the replies. We have an appointment this Friday with our Pastor. I have also contacted my previous wife and she is not opposed to an annulment. She just indicated she doesn’t want it based on fiction. I told her I totally agree because what would be the point?
I guess we must take this one step at a time and not be in a hurry. I would be willing to live currently in a “brother and sister” relationship if it meant we could fully participate in receiving communion and the other sacraments while we sort through this “mess”. Thank you all again and please pray for us during our quest to straighten this out so we can fully participate and contribute to our Catholic faith.

God bless you - we also have a support group for people going through this. There are a few other couples in your situation - the link in my signature block should be working. God bless.

 

[wearable]

In the Sacrament of Marriage, a baptized Christian man exchanges vows with a baptized Christian woman. Before Almighty God, they promise to each other a love that is faithful, permanent, exclusive, self-sacrificing and life-giving. Through marriage, a couple now enters into a new public state of life both in the eyes of the Church and society; therefore, the celebration of the marriage rightfully ought to be public with the vows exchanged before a priest (or other authorized witness of the Church), the witnesses (usually the Best Man and Maid of Honor), and the faithful gathered for the ceremony.

christian apparel

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Thank you for all the replies. We have an appointment this Friday with our Pastor. I have also contacted my previous wife and she is not opposed to an annulment. She just indicated she doesn’t want it based on fiction. I told her I totally agree because what would be the point?
I guess we must take this one step at a time and not be in a hurry. I would be willing to live currently in a “brother and sister” relationship if it meant we could fully participate in receiving communion and the other sacraments while we sort through this “mess”. Thank you all again and please pray for us during our quest to straighten this out so we can fully participate and contribute to our Catholic faith.

Well do:thumbsup:

 

[joanofarc2008]

How does your current spouse feel about living as brother and sister?

 

[rek123]

We both want to make it right and I believe she is willing to do what we need to do. I feel bad because she had never been married before and now we have this “mess” I created.
It does seem strange that Jesus could instantly cure a leper, forgive a murderer, or make a blind man see but my mistake of over 35 years ago seems at this point almost insurmountable.
Coincidentally, today as we were walking today on a trail, discussing our situation and what we believe are our options at this point, we bumped into our Pastor going the other way. Maybe it was a sign.
I guess all we can do is our best to straighten things out and leave it up to the Lord and try to do his will…

 

[Vico]

Thank you for all the replies. We have an appointment this Friday with our Pastor. I have also contacted my previous wife and she is not opposed to an annulment. She just indicated she doesn’t want it based on fiction. I told her I totally agree because what would be the point?
I guess we must take this one step at a time and not be in a hurry. I would be willing to live currently in a “brother and sister” relationship if it meant we could fully participate in receiving communion and the other sacraments while we sort through this “mess”. Thank you all again and please pray for us during our quest to straighten this out so we can fully participate and contribute to our Catholic faith.

Hopefully your priest knows this topic. It seems that the Tribunal or Chancery must be called upon to inform the priest at times.

To live as brother and sister is not so simple for it requires the avoidance of scandal. Scandal is bad example that leads others astray. That means sleeping in a different bedroom and avoiding temptations to sin. It means receiving communion, after absolution, only where ones situation is not known so that it does not appear that one is living in sin and still receiving communion. There can be not scandal given to the children either.

 

[rek123]

Avoidance of scandal should not be a problem since not even we knew of the problem until just recently. As an aside, I know many couples who were not married in the Church, or previously married in the Church and since divorced and remarried civilly, and those that live together without marriage who participate in communion. Maybe the “Rules” need to be explained/discussed more.

 

[USS_Nostromo]

My wife was married for about six month to a drunked, drug abuser, wife abuser. She has a scar on her back where he knifed her. after the divorce, he said that if he can’t have her, no one would. she is in fear of her life. We did not get married in the catholic church. we were married in a lutheran church. When we inquired about an annullment, the church said that they need to interview him. She did not want to let him know where she was for fear of him comming back and killing her. the church said that was not their problem and this was the way things were done. so we did not get the annullment. talking to a priest is hard at best as I am deaf. do not sigh and only lip read. still miss things. she is my ears. can’t go to confession as writing it is not allowed according to the church. cannot have any written records, i guess. I can understand now why deaf people have the hardest time with their faith.

took Easter Joy’s advice and went to the diocese office personally. Don’t use the phone. Let me explain something first. The diocese I am in is very large. It contains two large cities(one populations is over 150,000 and the other is over 300,000) and contains 15 counties. There are 82 parishes in this diocese. Only 4 have something for the deaf. and none of them in the city i live in.

so are you ready for the answers I got?

1. I am not considered a member of the diocese unless I am registered at a parish. Sort of saying “you can’t have a job without being in the union, but you can’t be in the union if you don’t have a job”.
2. I asked what parish boundery I am in. I am lucky. I am in an area where three parishes boundry are overlaping each other barely. So i can take my pick???
3. At this time there is no ministries for the deaf. It is being studied to see if there is a need for it.
4. the diocese tends to push people back to the parish for problem or issues as they are busy and don’t have the time or resorces to deal with every single person who come in looking for help or answers.
5. the lady is checking, but as far as the annullment, they still need to contact the ex. She understand the concerns, but that is the way it is done in this diocese, no exceptions. She said that they have some problems of ex’s going after their ex’s, but not enough to change the policy.
6. they also have said that most priest will not talk to people who are not a member of their parish. I did call two of the parishes and they basicly told me the same thing.

Interesting, isn’t it.

At this point, my wife has no interest in joining the church. She find the church very cold, impersonal, judgemental. You would have better success emptying the great lakes with a teaspoon. I know God works wonders, but at this time no.

also to answer another question, I have been deaf since birth. I have some traces of hearing with very powerfull hearing aids to get along in life, but I MUST see that person face to lip read so that I can “hear”

 

[Castello]

Use email (if you do not use the phone) to contact this group

ncpd.org/ministries-programs/models/diocesan/contacts

It sounds like you talked to a secretary who did not have all the facts. Canon Law makes sure you ARE a member of the Diocese, registration or not.

You need to have someone who can get on the phone for you talk to an advocate for the Tribunal. You are getting some muddy info.

 

[Vico]

Avoidance of scandal should not be a problem since not even we knew of the problem until just recently. As an aside, I know many couples who were not married in the Church, or previously married in the Church and since divorced and remarried civilly, and those that live together without marriage who participate in communion. Maybe the “Rules” need to be explained/discussed more.

It is very simple to understand if you read this declaration from the Holy See (made in 2000), and I am showing just a portion of it here, regarding:

"The* Code of Canon Law *establishes that “Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to Holy Communion” (can. 915). …
…the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments declares the following:

1. The prohibition found in the cited canon, by its nature, is derived from divine law and transcends the domain of positive ecclesiastical laws: the latter cannot introduce legislative changes which would oppose the doctrine of the Church. The scriptural text on which the ecclesial tradition has always relied is that of St. Paul: “This means that whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily sins against the body and blood of the Lord. A man should examine himself first only then should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup. He who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks a judgment on himself.”

This text concerns in the first place the individual faithful and their moral conscience, a reality that is expressed as well by the Code in can. 916. But the unworthiness that comes from being in a state of sin also poses a serious juridical problem in the Church: indeed the canon of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches that is parallel to can. 915 CIC of the Latin Church makes reference to the term “unworthy”: “Those who are publicly unworthy are forbidden from receiving the Divine Eucharist” (can. 712). In effect, the reception of the Body of Christ when one is publicly unworthy constitutes an objective harm to the ecclesial communion: it is a behavior that affects the rights of the Church and of all the faithful to live in accord with the exigencies of that communion. In the concrete case of the admission to Holy Communion of faithful who are divorced and remarried, the scandal, understood as an action that prompts others towards wrongdoing, affects at the same time both the sacrament of the Eucharist and the indissolubility of marriage. That scandal exists even if such behavior, unfortunately, no longer arouses surprise: in fact it is precisely with respect to the deformation of the conscience that it becomes more necessary for Pastors to act, with as much patience as firmness, as a protection to the sanctity of the Sacraments and a defense of Christian morality, and for the correct formation of the faithful.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20000706_declaration_en.html

 

[rek123]

I guess my frustration is that in a time when the Catholic Church has advertisements on TV to ask non-active Catholics to come back to the Church I see nothing but roadblocks to do just that. My wife and I have done many things in the past few years to be good Catholics. We contribute in many ways. Again, I have done wrong in the past and I am asking Jesus to forgive me and to allow me to follow him from this day forward. Why does something I did 35 years ago prevent His forgiveness now? The New Testament doesn’t seem that complicated. Not many “laws” to follow. I’m not sure why the Catholic Church has to make it so complicated.

 

[mamaslo]

There are good road blocks and bad ones. The Church’s roadblocks are good ones. They are concerned for your soul.

You continue to grow in your faith. It is a challenging journey, it taxes us to our limits and we are asked to find joy in the midst of this. It IS difficult and frustrating. You continue to do what is right as you learn about it. Trust that Jesus gave us the Church and the truth.

There are things that need to be straightened out…my guess is that since your are talking about 35 years ago that there is not much evidence for a case. You can still do this, even if it is difficult.

peace.

 

[dans0622]

…Why does something I did 35 years ago prevent His forgiveness now? The New Testament doesn’t seem that complicated. Not many “laws” to follow. I’m not sure why the Catholic Church has to make it so complicated.

Hello,

What you are facing can certainly seem overwhelming and unjust. Nevertheless, the problem is certainly based on the New Testament: “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Luke 16:18). This law is not complicated but when a person is in a situation like yours, where it legitimately can be said that you are right in the middle of that verse, it can take a while and a lot of work to sort out (if it can be “sorted out”), not because of Church legalism but because of the importance of the problem.

Also, what you did 35 years ago does not prevent forgiveness. It makes your marital status unclear.

Thanks for your time.
Dan

 

[USS_Nostromo]

Castello, thank you for the information, but the office I talked to was special Ministries. Maybe I should just forget about this. seem like all I do is cause trouble and problems. Maybe the nuns were right when they told my parents to remove me from catholic school, because I would not make a good catholic. I am quite the failure as a catholic. Thanks for all the help and info to everyone.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Castello, thank you for the information, but the office I talked to was special Ministries. Maybe I should just forget about this. seem like all I do is cause trouble and problems. Maybe the nuns were right when they told my parents to remove me from catholic school, because I would not make a good catholic. I am quite the failure as a catholic. Thanks for all the help and info to everyone.

Did you talk to the deaf minister that we have provided for you?

 

[rek123]

I know that nothing comes easy and I am very good at working very hard to achieve something that is important. That said, you don’t always get what you want or think you need. An annulment is not always granted no matter how hard you try and pray for. My understanding is that the Church is getting tougher in granting them. I certainly don’t want to lie or even stretch the truth to try and convince a tribunal to grant one. I know there are even professional writers out there, who for a fee, will write up your declarations to slant things in your favor much as you do in a law suit. The whole process is troublesome to me.
My point is I guess the Church would rather have me divorce my current wonderful wife of 18 years who has been every much a mother to her step-children and just be alone and wreck not only my life but those around me. Reuniting with my first wife who had my children and left us physically but not financially when they were infants for her own reasons 27 years ago is not an option. The bible says not to do a lot of things and if you violate them you can still be forgiven if you sincerely repent and ask Gods forgiveness but I guess not if you make an unknowing mistake in choosing the wrong marriage partner.