Married Priest???

[Brother_John]

Who said that I don’t “accept it”?

There is a difference between “accepting” something, and “agreeing” with it.

I “accept” that I must pay my property tax bill. But that doesn’t mean I “agree” with what they make me pay.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming, arguing over whether it’s ok to receive Communion in the Hand…

 

[chris_molter]

I have a lifetime of experience and observation IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH to draw my opinions from…do you?

Wait… after all that arguing against anyone using “because the Church says so” you come up with “because I’ve been in the Church a long time and **I **say so!”?

I think Pope JPII had a little more experience and knowledge regarding the application of Church discipline than anyone here and he (and others) thought the Pastoral Provision was a good idea. Was it a mistake? Could be. But that’s not for you or any of us to decide, is it? Or are you Pope Benedict writing under a pseudonym?

 

[Brother_John]

Wait… after all that arguing against anyone using “because the Church says so” you come up with “because I’ve been in the Church a long time and **I **say so!”?

Not because I say so, but I’ve had 47 years of, “because the Church says so”

“Because the Church says so”, simply makes it Church practice. It doesn’t always mean that everyone will agree, or like it, or that it even makes sense…at least we know where the “parent-child” relationship comes from

This can go on for days, but is becoming rather repetitive. The posts stating that the Pope allows convert priests in the “spirit of unity”, offer good explanation of why we accept the converts.

But the fact remains, that the decision of the Pope creates inconsistiency. Some believe that allowing “our own” to marry and have families would create a greater “spirit of unity” within ourselves.

But, as so many put it…“Because the Church says so”, therefore, it is…

 

[Brother_John]

Or are you Pope Benedict writing under a pseudonym?

Ratz, you figured it out…

 

[guanophore]

If a priest has been convicted of molestation/child abuse, is he then stripped of his ordination and ex-communicated?

Wondering,

marietta

This should go on a new thread, marietta. Sexual crimes have nothing to do with the church discipline of priestly celibacy.

 

[guanophore]

I am not questioning the authority of the Church. I am asking WHY would the Roman Catholic Church dispense someone (under any circumstances) from a discipline that is so basic to it’s structure? What is the reasoning?

When the Pope wrote against abortion, he gave REASONS. When the Pope wrote about Communion in the Hand, he gave REASONS. The Baltimore Catechism gave REASONS for what it said.

Nobody has given me a REASON, beyond to say that the Church has the authority to make or break it’s own rules. And yes, there has been a post or two saying to the effect that a minister/priest of another denomination saw the error of his ways and converted, but that does not address the issue of his celibacy.

And, from our friend, rpp, some words that might apply to others as well as myself…

I would also encourage you to use less invective and pejorative language and adopt a less aggressive style of posting. It is difficult to have a reasoned discussion with someone who uses such terms or whom we feel is attacking.

From the early days of the Church, it was recognized that persons chosen for priestly service from the celibate life were able to give more to the church. This practice became even more pronounced in the middle ages, when there were so many clergy (especially in Europe) who were poorly prepared for service. Due to disease, wars, and political upheaval, the opportunities for preparation were affected immensely. It became even more important to enforce the celibacy rule because so many priests had gross sexual indiscretion. The Church ended up having to pay to support both legitimate and illegetimate children from these indiscretions.

 

[guanophore]

Here is a link to an official source.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html

 

[Aramis]

If a priest has been convicted of molestation/child abuse, is he then stripped of his ordination and ex-communicated?

Wondering,

marietta

No. His ordination can not be stripped.

He will be suspended ad divinis, probably indefinitely. If married, laicized. If celibate, ordered to a monastery. If a criminal conviction exists, he will be required to serve his time.

In either case, under current guidelines, he’s done with public ministry.

If he is unwilling to adhere to the suspension, THEN he gets excommunicated, but he’s STILL a priest forever.

 

[marietta]

guanophore:

“Sexual crimes have nothing to do with the church discipline of priestly celibacy.”

Maybe this should go on another thread, but I disagree with you 100%. You squash a man’s sex drive and it will come out sideways.

marietta

 

[guanophore]

guanophore:

“Sexual crimes have nothing to do with the church discipline of priestly celibacy.”

Maybe this should go on another thread, but I disagree with you 100%. You squash a man’s sex drive and it will come out sideways.

marietta

Frankly, I don’t think there is any difference between "squashing’ a man’s sex drive or “squashing” a woman’s.

However, such a statement reveals a lack of understanding of the call to celibacy. Such persons are gifted with special graces and either don’t want sexual activity, or have the fortitude to choose against it. That is what constitutes the gift.

Saying that a vowed person is unable to manage his passions indicates that such a person is not suited for the priesthood. The formation period is designed to weed these people out. I admit that the formation was not happening for a generation in the West, at least.

There is no difference between this principle applied to the priest or the married man. If the man’s wife is not able to or interested in having sex, should the husband just find some perverted outlet for his “drive” because he cannot bear to have it “squashed”? Such thinking absolutely negates the Power of God to uphold people who have taken vows. Either God is too weak to help them, or they are reprobate?

 

[wanner47]

guanophore:

“Sexual crimes have nothing to do with the church discipline of priestly celibacy.”

Maybe this should go on another thread, but I disagree with you 100%. You squash a man’s sex drive and it will come out sideways.

marietta

By your logic, no Protestant minister has ever committed a sex crime.

Better go tell the folks at www.reformation.com and www.stopbaptistpredators.org that it’s all in their heads.

For that matter, there should never be any sex crimes happening in public school situations, but clearly there are. Gee, if only teachers could marry… oh, wait.

 

[marietta]

wanner47:

Would you be good enough to explain your post in your own words?

Thanks.

marietta

 

[marietta]

wanner47:

Pointing out the transgressions which have taken place in other denominations does not excuse the violations perpetrated upon so many young men (and women) by Catholic priests.

Can we not deflect the focus for a moment?

marietta

 

[wanner47]

wanner47:

Would you be good enough to explain your post in your own words?

Thanks.

marietta

I’m not quite sure what you mean. My post above yours is in my own words, and I think it speaks quite clearly for itself.

 

[wanner47]

wanner47:

Pointing out the transgressions which have taken place in other denominations does not excuse the violations perpetrated upon so many young men (and women) by Catholic priests.

Can we not deflect the focus for a moment?

marietta

My examples weren’t meant to deflect the focus, or to suggest that the sex crimes of those in other denominations excuses those committed by Catholics.

My point is that celibacy does not cause sex crimes. If it did, no Protestant minister should ever commit sex crimes – but as you see from the examples already posted, they do.

Obviously, celibacy has no correlation to sex crimes.

 

[Aramis]

wanner47:

Pointing out the transgressions which have taken place in other denominations does not excuse the violations perpetrated upon so many young men (and women) by Catholic priests.

Can we not deflect the focus for a moment?

marietta

The thing is that they show that the claim that celibacy is the cause to be wrong.

Baptists and other protestant sects have HIGHER rates of sexual abuse by pastors than the Catholic Church’s clergy.

The focus on attacking the celibate clerics choice of a celibate life as a means of advancing an agenda for more Roman married priests is equating celibacy to perversion.

I personally found your statement about squishing sex drives to be both disingenuous and offensive, both for being genderist beyond need, and for the implication that all celibates are perverts.

Yes, psychologically, the reproductive and sexual drives can be redirected, a process called subversion, but it is neither inherently unhealthy nor is it normally into other illicit sexual behaviors. Most men desire multiple partners, and subvert that perfectly healthily into sex with one woman. The perverts are the few who do not do so.

 

[guanophore]

Pointing out the transgressions which have taken place in other denominations does not excuse the violations perpetrated upon so many young men (and women) by Catholic priests.

Can we not deflect the focus for a moment?

marietta

I agree, However, blaming transgressions resulting from unrestrained passions is irrelevant to the gift of celibacy. A person can sin as a result of unrestrained passions regardless of their state in life. If a person is going to violate a vow, they will do so no matter what kind it is.

 

[marietta]

Aramis:

This business of equating celibacy to perversion: I don’t understand your point. The fact that only men are entitled to be ordained takes the “genderist” claim out of the discussion entirely. And if “genderist” is a slam, then what is “genderist beyond need”? To the tenth power? Redundant.

wanner47:

If “celibacy obviously has no correlation to sex crimes”, then how do you explain the innumerable offenses perpetrated upon the victims of so many priests? What made/makes them do it?

Anybody got the stats of the number of young men currently entering the priesthood? And how does the Church investigate its potential new priests? Or do they?

marietta

 

[guanophore]

If “celibacy obviously has no correlation to sex crimes”, then how do you explain the innumerable offenses perpetrated upon the victims of so many priests? What made/makes them do it?

The same way I explain faithlessness in the marriage bond, and every other kind of sin:

14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Anybody got the stats of the number of young men currently entering the priesthood? And how does the Church investigate its potential new priests? Or do they?

marietta

I do not. I pray for the seminarians in my eparchy and around the world. I don’t think the Church “investigates” as much as provide spritual formation. I think some of this should be coping with sexual urges.

 

[wanner47]

Aramis:

wanner47:

If “celibacy obviously has no correlation to sex crimes”, then how do you explain the innumerable offenses perpetrated upon the victims of so many priests? What made/makes them do it?

Anybody got the stats of the number of young men currently entering the priesthood? And how does the Church investigate its potential new priests? Or do they?

marietta

If celibacy does have correlation to sex crimes, as you claim, then how do you explain the fact that Protestant ministers also commit sex crimes?

If you look at the percentages involved, Protestant clergy abuse children at an equal and sometimes higher rate as Catholic clergy. Celibacy has nothing to do with it. Sin does.