"Marry Him and Be Submissive - "One Italian Wife’s Countercultural Message to Women

[ToeInTheWater]

That’s why having not read the book (big caveat), I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and say that they don’t actually mean love and respect the way we do, nor does saying men want “respect” preclude them from wanting and needing love too (and vice versa for women).

About the only time I ever recall a woman stating “The Bible tells us to respect our husbands, it doesn’t tell us to love them” it was in the context of a “true-crime documentary” that involved a woman killing her husband. The whole spin seemed to be “their church frowns on divorce, so the only option she had to leave the marriage, was to commit murder”. (The woman was some version of a Southern Evangelical.) I took the whole episode with a handful of salt.

Even the most traditional, old-school, rural men don’t go around teaching their sons to love their mothers/sisters/wives without bothering to show them respect. Among normal people, that’s unthinkable. ** And although the internet doesn’t always reflect it, most people are fairly normal.**

I definitely agree with the part I bolded.

However, I do think that “traditionally” men have often been taught to treat “respectable women” with respect, but that there are some women such as prostitutes, “easy” girls, non-white women, etc, who they could treat as badly as they pleased, because they were not the type of woman who deserved respect. And that some men applied this to their own wives as well though they usually would justify it by citing the sins of the wife.

There’s also the stereotype of the young man who treats his girlfriends abominably and often hangs out with friends who do the same, but would jump to defend his sister(s) if a man treated them the same way.

I don’t think there’s a similar history when it comes to how women treat men.

The Redpill stuff is amusing, but I’m afraid it has the unfortunate side effect of making people, mostly women, unduly defensive when any mention of gendered traits comes up. That defensiveness is understandable, but it makes it seem like the only alternative to the calculating, systematic dehumanization of the wife is a cold, practical, 50/50, overly guarded “partnership”. And frankly, that sounds almost as bad.

Most men are not Red Pill consumers, and this idea presents on both extremes, that men and women are locked in a perpetual war that only one side can “win”, really does not reflect reality for the vast majority of “normal” people.

 

[buffalo]

Here is an interesting article.
**Women Need Love and Men Need Respect? **

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Here is an interesting article.
Women Need Love and Men Need Respect?

Thank you for being open-minded enough to post a critique of Dr. Eggerichs.

I think it is interesting to ponder our own answers to this question:

If you were forced to choose one of the following, which would you prefer to endure…to be left alone and unloved in the world, or to feel inadequate and disrespected by everyone?

The author of this article rephrases the original claims of Dr. Eggerichs into a more gender-neutral one:

If he highlights a universal truth, then it is one that applies to both genders. For example, his concept of “the crazy cycle” is the idea that without love from her husband, a wife reacts without respect, and that without respect from his wife, a husband reacts without love.

Instead of this formulation, I would suggest that the crazy-making pattern is that when one partner fails to meet the other partner’s deepest needs for both love and respect, the second partner will react defensively and fail to meet the first partner’s deepest needs for both love and respect in return.

What do people think of this version?

 

[buffalo]

And another side:
The ONE Thing Men Want More Than Your Love

**Ladies be warned: you are about to enter the inner workings of the male brain. **

 

[egretps]

The book appears to be directed to wives, and the need to respect their husbands.

No doubt men are to respect the dignity of their wives, so much so they have to be willing to lay down their life for her.

Being Christian, we are to respect others, see their innate dignity. So the post above regarding’respect respectable women’ vs perceived non-respectable women like prostitutes is a sad cultural thing, not the higher calling of our faith, or Christ’s example.

In the case of the lady I know, her husband treated her and their marriage with gross disrespect leading her to absolute disrespect of him and the failing of their marriage. Paraded lovers over the years before her. She still loved the man, but the marriage was Kaput.

That respect that is needed is probably the respect of the basic human dignity and the office of Husband or Wife. No higher calling than that of a child of God.

So St. Paul gets a lotta flack for pointing out something his early church needed to hear, again and again in different scenarios.

My own life, my husband has told me that he respects me. I am a very flawed human being. I appreciate the respect for it gives me strength and courage to do what I need to do and it makes an ongoing love between us continue to grow. I’ve got his back.

Contempt, though is a love killer.

My mother has shared with me that over the years the marriages she watched fail started with usually the wife making a public contemptuous remark about her husband. Every single time.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I’m not sure what my answer to the question would be but choosing one doesn’t mean it’s appealing. The authors crazy cycle makes more sense to me though.

 

[egretps]

And another side:
The ONE Thing Men Want More Than Your Love

**Ladies be warned: you are about to enter the inner workings of the male brain. **

Buffalo, great article. I’m passing it onto my kids to read.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

And another side:
The ONE Thing Men Want More Than Your Love
**Ladies be warned: you are about to enter the inner workings of the male brain. **

The “male” brain? Or a “boy” brain?

The article struck me as very condescending towards both men and women. If it was meant to be a humor piece, I’d understand it, but this is actually meant to be serious advice?

Despite the many disclaimers, article seems to be suggesting women pretend to be helpless damsels in distress, and bend over backwards to protect those extremely fragile male egos.

Entry #3 actually made me laugh out loud. Which, again, is fine if this was meant to be humorous. But not fine if it was meant to be serious advice.

**3. Allow him to complete DIY tasks **
"That would be so helpful if you could fix that broken tap, sweetie. You’re amazing”.

Wait a minute, I thought men were supposed to be heads of the household? Why would a wife need to ALLOW him to complete DIY tasks? I thought this was supposed to be advice for a man’s wife, not his mother. I cannot ever imagine myself calling my husband “amazing” for fixing a broken tap.

When something needs to be done at home, don’t call in the professional immediately. It may take your man longer, he may make mistakes along the way, but fixing things himself will give him a real sense of success and worthiness. DIY tasks are something that all men enjoy, so try to leave these challenges open for him.

Don’t worry, if it gets to the point where a professional does need to take a look, your man will arrange this themselves. It just might happen to be when you’re not home.

And the wife is supposed to do what, then? Pretend the husband managed to completely fool her as to who actually fixed the tap, (I guess because the wife has no need to actually see where the household money is going), and to praise him to the skies for fixing the tap, all the while knowing he didn’t actually do it?

Should she do that in public, too? Since #6 states “Show public respect”.

I can see this being fodder for some 1980s “family sitcom”, more than actual example of how to conduct a marriage. A wife asks her husband to fix the broken tap. The husband tries, but can’t, and secretly calls a real plumber while the wife is gone. The wife comes back and praises him to the skies, not only in private, but in public.

All of a sudden, the man is inundated by requests from everyone in the neighborhood to fix every plumbing problem. Not wanting to disappoint his wife, he either tries to fix everything with predictably disastrous results. Or he keeps calling the real plumber. He probably has to get a second job doing something really embarrassing to afford to pay him.

Finally he comes clean, only to find out that the wife knew all along that he didn’t really fix the tap and was just trying to support his fragile male ego.

Ironically, I think most MRA types would find such a sitcom episode, to be a misandrist piece of feminist propaganda that shows how stupid men are.

ETA: The above scenario would be the 1980s broadcast TV version. In the 2010s children’s channel ghetto version, the professional plumber would be a her, not a him.

ETA: Also, the “fix the tap” scenario presents only 2 options; either the man does it, or a professional does it. Not “the wife fixes it herself, therefore saving both time and money”. But I guess however much money it takes to fix it is worth it, to protect the man’s fragile ego.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

It all comes back to the attitude that it’s women’s responsibility to manage men’s emotions. I mean I try to show appreciation when my husband does something nice but I’m not going to boost his ego regardless of what he is actually doing. If he is contemplating a bad decision then I will certainly tell him, I’m sure we’ve all had times where we have done this and later been thankful for someone being honest about our bad ideas!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It all comes back to the attitude that it’s women’s responsibility to manage men’s emotions. I mean I try to show appreciation when my husband does something nice but I’m not going to boost his ego regardless of what he is actually doing. If he is contemplating a bad decision then I will certainly tell him, I’m sure we’ve all had times where we have done this and later been thankful for someone being honest about our bad ideas!

The article also presents men as clueless about what women are truly thinking and easily manipulated into accepting female flattery as legitimate.

I’m personally not that good of an actress to be able to say something like ““Dave got the washing machine going again in just a few minutes” and sound like I’m extremely impressed with that feat, if I don’t actually feel that way.

Not to say there’s nothing helpful in that article, though.

1. 5 compliments to every criticism

Research has shown that too much praise can be detrimental to your relationship, just like too much criticism can be. But what is the right ratio?

Well a good rule of thumb according to psychologists is a 5 to 1 ratio. That means that for every time you criticize him, you should be praising him 5 times.

If you find yourself criticizing just as often as you are praising, then you’ll either need to let a lot more things slide (pick your battles), or you need to start noticing more of the positive things he does and actively show this appreciation whenever you can.

I actually do think that’s reasonable, though I’d say this applies to men as well as women. Sadly, my father is quick to critique my mother, slow to praise her. Or at least, he used to be that way. Then she got sick, sick enough that he had to take on many of the household chores she did herself. Now he’s become much more appreciative of her. That’s one of the few good things to come of her illness.

I also agree with NOT cutting people down with criticism in front of witnesses; but again, I think this applies to women, too. I can think of couples where one always acted like “I am so superior to my spouse they should be grateful to have me around” and I found that quite distasteful.

ETA: I guess my main problem with this article is that it’s not really advising women to respect their husbands. It’s advising them to PRETEND to respect them out of loving concern for their fragile egos. That’s the problem. I’d react the same way to an article telling men to always praise their wives for their cooking, or to never question a parenting decision made by the wife.

 

[Xantippe]

The article also presents men as clueless about what women are truly thinking and easily manipulated into accepting female flattery as legitimate.

**I’m personally not that good of an actress to be able to say something like ““Dave got the washing machine going again in just a few minutes” and sound like I’m extremely impressed with that feat, if I don’t actually feel that way. **

[snip]

I actually do think that’s reasonable, though I’d say this applies to men as well as women. Sadly, my father is quick to critique my mother, slow to praise her. Or at least, he used to be that way. Then she got sick, sick enough that he had to take on many of the household chores she did herself. Now he’s become much more appreciative of her. That’s one of the few good things to come of her illness.

I also agree with NOT cutting people down with criticism in front of witnesses; but again, I think this applies to women, too. I can think of couples where one always acted like “I am so superior to my spouse they should be grateful to have me around” and I found that quite distasteful.

ETA:** I guess my main problem with this article is that it’s not really advising women to respect their husbands. ** It’s advising them to PRETEND to respect them out of loving concern for their fragile egos. That’s the problem. I’d react the same way to an article telling men to always praise their wives for their cooking, or to never question a parenting decision made by the wife.

Oh my goodness yes about not being that great an actress! And really, a lot of women who think they are really aren’t. I’m sure those of us who grew up in Protestant churches are often familiar with the brittle, sugary church lady type, who tries to act nicey-nice all the time, but obviously isn’t. It’s really not a nice kind of person to have to be around. shudder

My dad was also much more critical than praising my mom when she was a SAHM. In her case, what it took for him to start appreciating her and respecting her was her earning as much as he did…Sad but true.

Yes about the non-gendered need to not be calling a spouse on the carpet in front of outsiders (including the children). A friend’s husband has criticized her to me a couple times in front of me and (in my head) I’m like, “Why are you telling me this?”

Right about pretending to respect, not respecting.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Oh my goodness yes about not being that great an actress! And really, a lot of women who think they are really aren’t. I’m sure those of us who grew up in Protestant churches are often familiar with the brittle, sugary church lady type, who tries to act nicey-nice all the time, but obviously isn’t. It’s really not a nice kind of person to have to be around. shudder

The whole “fake it 'till you make it” idea that seems very “conservative evangelical Christian”, I don’t see it as much in Catholic media.

My dad was also much more critical than praising my mom when she was a SAHM. In her case, what it took for him to start appreciating her and respecting her was her earning as much as he did…Sad but true.

Yes about the non-gendered need to not be calling a spouse on the carpet in front of outsiders (including the children). A friend’s husband has criticized her to me a couple times in front of me and (in my head) I’m like, “Why are you telling me this?”

Right about pretending to respect, not respecting.

Also, it occurs to me that the examples of opportunities for a wife to massage her husband’s ego seem really petty to me. I’d hope I had more to be proud about regarding my husband, than basic DIY skills and getting promotions at work.

Not critiquing your spouse in public is pretty basic human decency, I’d say the same about one’s children, actually. To me that’s not about massaging anyone’s ego. but basic civility along the lines of my prior example of legislators NOT screaming “you buffoon” at the President during the State of the Union address, even they think he is one.

The whole article would be fine as a humor piece with grains of truth, but the author seems to intend it as a serious piece seasoned with humor.

 

[Xantippe]

The whole “fake it 'till you make it” idea that seems very “conservative evangelical Christian”, I don’t see it as much in Catholic media.

Also, it occurs to me that the examples of opportunities for a wife to massage her husband’s ego seem really petty to me. I’d hope I had more to be proud about regarding my husband, than basic DIY skills and getting promotions at work.

Yeah–the problem with faking it is that you wind up looking fake.

And yes, how about complimenting him on his actual achievements, rather than making up stuff? Wouldn’t most of us feel terrible being complimented for things we hadn’t actually done or praised to the skies for everyday tasks. I’d wonder–what kind of useless moron do they think I am? Paradoxically, it could be terrible for his self-esteem.

Edited for typo.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

And yes, how about complimenting him on his actual achievements, rather than making up stuff? Wouldn’t most of us feel terrible being complimented for things we hadn’t actually done or praised to the skies for everyday tasks. I’d wonder–what kind of useless moron do they think I am? Paradoxically, it could be terrible for his self-esteem.

Either that or you become an egotistical brat, convinced you can do no wrong because Mommy adores you and you keep getting participation trophies. (As you mentioned before.) I mean, this is the kind of thing we rap on the parents of Millenials for. So, if this isn’t even a good way to raise a child, how can it be a good way for a wife to treat her adult husband?

 

[Xantippe]

OK, now I’m reading the “The One Thing Men Want” article. Some thoughts:

1. The author says “Did you know that a recent survey showed over 40% of men feel unappreciated by their significant others or families? If he is not feeling respected by you, whose opinion matters to him most, how is he meant to gain the respect of anyone else?”

Notice the little shuffle here–we go from “unappreciated by their significant others or families” to talking about it being the wife who is unappreciative. I for one am actually astonished that it’s as low as 40%.

Who among us with either small children or teens has not felt unappreciated from time to time?

1. “Which can be hard for women to understand, when generally the number one thing we are looking out for in a relationship are signs of our man’s love.”

That strikes me as being more of a dating type issue. I personally don’t go around thinking, “My husband hasn’t texted for three whole hours. Does he love me? Is he even coming home tonight? WAAAAAH!” That’s just not a healthy mature married person way of looking at the world.

1. “But the hard thing is, he won’t actually be able to tell you when he is feeling a lack of respect. Instead, what you will see is ‘unnecessary’ displays of anger in a minor disagreement, or being given the cold shoulder for seemingly no reason. Ring any bells?”

Interestingly, that does ring some bells–but it was me losing my temper because I felt disrespected.

1. "1. Trust his judgment

“This is a biggie. Trusting his judgment is all about affirming his decisions without questioning them, within reason of course! This may mean taking things into perspective letting little things slide – will it really matter if his way is a bit more complicated than your way?”

I actually also identify with this one–but I’m the one who needs to have my judgment trusted. I don’t like having to defend minor decisions or being micromanaged. I am happy to consult on larger issues, but on smaller low-stakes issues, I like doing things my way. If I’m doing a job, I’d like some freedom to do it my way, and I try to give my husband the courtesy of freedom in figuring out how he wants to do things.

1. “A great way of showing your man that you respect and value his (name removed by moderator)ut is by asking for his help and advice.”

I wonder exactly how much men (particularly long-married men with children, long commutes, dogs, lawns, and heavy work responsibilities) enjoy being asked for help?

My general impression is that this approach is much more effective with new boyfriends.

1. “Allow him to complete DIY tasks”

Are we totally sure he wants to complete said DIY task?

1. “DIY tasks are something that **all **men enjoy, so try to leave these challenges open for him.”

“All” is clearly false.

1. “Don’t worry, if it gets to the point where a professional does need to take a look, your man will arrange this themselves. It just might happen to be when you’re not home.”

GAH! This just does not make sense for an SAHM household. That’s one of the important services that we offer–calling the plumber, being home for the plumber, and paying the plumber.

My husband does not want to have to call the plumber or miss work or pay evening rates in order to be home when the plumber comes.

1. “A simple ‘thank you’ can do so much in making your man feel worthy and valued.”

And vice versa for women.

1. “This is about recognising his achievements, and focusing on acknowledging and rewarding what he has done well, rather than criticising what he hasn’t done.”

Yes–and that is true for women, too.

1. “5 compliments to every criticism”

Yes–but the tricky thing is that ideally, they ought to be sincere.

And that’s true also for wives and for children.

1. ““Did you hear about the promotion Dave just got at work? I’m so proud of him”.”

Bragging is not very attractive. I think audience is important–this would be OK to your mother or his mother, but most other people won’t care.

1. “Even that light teasing you thought was funny may actually have felt humiliating for him – always look out for signs he might be feeling uncomfortable.”

That applies to women, too.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I actually do think some of the points in the article make sense, but they do for both men and women. Certainly, refraining from micromanaging is reasonable, so is saying “thank you”, and there are indeed some men who enjoy being asked for help with mundane household tasks.

This is about recognising his achievements, and focusing on acknowledging and rewarding what he has done well, rather than criticising what he hasn’t done.

I agree with this, and I recall one instance of seeing a wife who really was disrespecting her husband in public, at a laundromat. She asked him to help fold the clothes, and he did, only to have her tell him he didn’t do it correctly, and re-folding all the clothes herself, grumbling about his incompetence all the while.

Also, ironically, for all I mocked the dripping tap example, I actually do have a dripping tap right now, and if I had a man in my life and I knew he liked DIY stuff, I might ask him to fix it. (I can probably fix it myself but it’s not something I particularly enjoy doing.) But I wouldn’t be gushing “oh sweetie you’re amazing” if he did. I would thank him for doing it, though.

Even that light teasing you thought was funny may actually have felt humiliating for him – always look out for signs he might be feeling uncomfortable.

I also agree that even “light teasing” can be very hurtful to a man, and for women too. I did watch “Jon and Kate Plus 8” when Jon was still in the picture, and I recall flinching every time Kate Gosselin did this, on TV, to her now-ex husband, I recall her even “playfully” poking, punching, and slapping him, in a way that I think most would definitely consider abusive if he’d done it to her. Now, I get the feeling that marriage may have been doomed anyway even if they hadn’t gone the Reality TV route but I doubt that helped them.

So I guess I’m not finding the bones of this article to be too nutty, just the insistence on making certain issues gender-specific and the pettiness of most of the examples given.

 

[buffalo]

There is a part in the book where the husband is working his tail off to support the family and the wife says to him how much her friends husband makes (or the size of their house) (paraphrasing) and it totally deflates the husband.

 

[pensmama87]

There is a part in the book where the husband is working his tail off to support the family and the wife says to him how much her friends husband makes (or the size of their house) (paraphrasing) and it totally deflates the husband.

“Hey honey! I’m so glad to see you! The kids are happily playing, I finally caught up on the laundry, and dinner’s just finishing up! I made chicken, let’s open this nice wine.”

“Chicken again? Co-worker told me his wife makes a roast on Tuesdays.”

Goes both ways. Moral of the story: men and women are hurt by cutting remarks. Don’t do it.

 

[Xantippe]

“Hey honey! I’m so glad to see you! The kids are happily playing, I finally caught up on the laundry, and dinner’s just finishing up! I made chicken, let’s open this nice wine.”

“Chicken again? Co-worker told me his wife makes a roast on Tuesdays.”

Goes both ways. Moral of the story: men and women are hurt by cutting remarks. Don’t do it.

Yeah.

And children!

 

[Sophie_Lawrence]

I actually do think some of the points in the article make sense, but they do for both men and women. Certainly, refraining from micromanaging is reasonable, so is saying “thank you”, and there are indeed some men who enjoy being asked for help with mundane household tasks.

I agree with this, and I recall one instance of seeing a wife who really was disrespecting her husband in public, at a laundromat. She asked him to help fold the clothes, and he did, only to have her tell him he didn’t do it correctly, and re-folding all the clothes herself, grumbling about his incompetence all the while.

Also, ironically, for all I mocked the dripping tap example, I actually do have a dripping tap right now, and if I had a man in my life and I knew he liked DIY stuff, I might ask him to fix it. (I can probably fix it myself but it’s not something I particularly enjoy doing.) But I wouldn’t be gushing “oh sweetie you’re amazing” if he did. I would thank him for doing it, though.

I also agree that even “light teasing” can be very hurtful to a man, and for women too. I did watch “Jon and Kate Plus 8” when Jon was still in the picture, and I recall flinching every time Kate Gosselin did this, on TV, to her now-ex husband, I recall her even “playfully” poking, punching, and slapping him, in a way that I think most would definitely consider abusive if he’d done it to her. Now, I get the feeling that marriage may have been doomed anyway even if they hadn’t gone the Reality TV route but I doubt that helped them.

So I guess I’m not finding the bones of this article to be too nutty, just the insistence on making certain issues gender-specific and the pettiness of most of the examples given.

I only watched a few times. Kate seemed a bit mean. Who knows how she really was, but they captured her mean moments frequently.