Marrying someone who mustn't have children

[1ke]

As for 1ke, please cite an official infallible source that says that “Be fruitful and multiply” was meant towards ALL married people.

Found in the Catechism, under the heading the Sacrament of Marriage:

1603 “**The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage.”**87 **The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution **despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life."89

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’"

1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."160

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, **God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.**161

I happen to know that the Church believes that the conjugal act is unitive, not merely procreative.

The Church teaches that it is both, and that neither element can be separated.

 

[1ke]

When the concept of NFP was initially presented to me, no one mentioned any asterisks next to it, as if it was only licit in SOME situations.

Were these limits on NFP dogmatically declared???

Well, then let me give you the references in the Catechism:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.155

And Humanae Vitae:

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who,** for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide **not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out.

There still may yet be hope… Is it licit to specifically seek out a wife who has been medically declared infertile???

I doubt it, as that does not conform to the objective moral criteria outlined by the Church regarding the purpose and end of marriage.

As for 1ke, I forgive you for your unCatholic attitude and comments. After all, that’s what we are called to do.(forgive others, as we have been forgiven, that is.)

I have nothing for which to be forgiven, nor do I seek it from you.

 

[aurora77]

Still, though, what is the licitiness of seeking an infertile woman to marry. Is that acceptable by the Church?

I’m no expert, but I would think that wouldn’t be acceptable. There’s nothing wrong with an infertile or sterile woman or man marrying, but to purposely seek out a spouse on the basis of their infertility/sterility means that the seeker has no intention to be open to life in their marriage. Therefore, it wouldn’t be acceptable.

 

[ChangingHeart]

Thank you for that source, 1ke. I can’t argue with the Catechism. This is all just really depressing, though.

 

[1ke]

Thank you for that source, 1ke. I can’t argue with the Catechism. This is all just really depressing, though.

Well, perhaps time and God will soften your heart and ease your fears.

Marriage is 100% sacrifice and 100% hard work every single day. Self-sacrifice is the central act of marriage, just as it is the central act of Christ in the Eucharist. That is why the sacramental theology of Marriage and the Eucharist are related.

If you aren’t prepared to dive in to the deep end of the unknown and say “no matter what comes along we will stand shoulder to shoulder and face it together” the perhaps you are not ready to be married, or called to a vocation of marriage.

Once again, I pose the question. Is it licit to specifically seek out a medically declared “infertile” woman to marry?

No, I do not believe it would be. I believe this section of Humanae Vitae speaks to that:

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out.

I also suggest that you read the entire encyclical Casti Connubii, which is a very deep and profound treatment of Marriage.

 

[serrlorca]

As long as you do not marry her because she is not fertile.

If you would marry her BECAUSE her infertility, even among a myriad of other reasons (not being your heart the last one of them), you wouldn’t be fair with her because you would be, at some level, “using” her. It doesn’t change the situation if she agrees to it.

Your marriage would be canonically void.

What Church tries to tell us is that we are all sons of God. By that very reason we can not reach a couple, just agree with her (or him) what would we like to do, and simply do it. We must adequate our behavior to what we are: sons of God.

Moral behavior is not just a matter of agreement between individuals. It is a matter of theological truth explained both in Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae and in The Roman Catechism.

You are facing the classical culture clash between your modernist point of view and the Catholic point of view.

You don’t have to worry if you are not able to accept Church’s position right now. However, you have to respect it, you have to really desire to understand it, and you have to read and pray for it. And keep on going.

Some day, a light will flash inside you. And you will understand part of what you don’t understand now.

That’s the way faith grows.

I hope this will help you.

 

[ChangingHeart]

The whole concept of marriage has just been changed for me. It no longer seems as beautiful as it once did. I dreamed of having a wife someday, but the Church teaching has crushed my hopes and dreams.

This has truly been one of the worst days of my life.

I just see all these poor parents with children who are either emotionally disturbed or autistic, parents that have to constantly fear for their own physical safety in their own homes. They don’t get a moment of peace or tranquility. Not much time to pray or read the Bible. Can’t even bring their kids to Church as they would be too violent. These kids don’t move out at 18 or 21 as they can’t function in the world. They just become bigger and more dangerously violent, as their parents grow older and less physically fit to deal with them. I don’t ever want to risk putting myself(or my future wife) in that situation. I thought NFP was the answer to this problem, but apparently, it is not. Lifelong cellibacy is the only way.

 

[Kielbasi]

I’m no expert, but I would think that wouldn’t be acceptable. There’s nothing wrong with an infertile or sterile woman or man marrying, but to purposely seek out a spouse on the basis of their infertility/sterility means that the seeker has no intention to be open to life in their marriage. Therefore, it wouldn’t be acceptable.

One of the primary causes of infertility is age. Its an incontrovertible fact that the vast majority of women over 45 are infertile, and women over 50 who give birth are rare enough to warrant international news coverage.

Is it acceptable for a man to only seek out a wife in the 45+ age bracket (who is almost certainly infertile)? Does it make a difference if the man is in his 50s or older?

 

[Kielbasi]

My nephew is very close friends with a woman with a bad heart defect (transplant is not an option). Although she is fairly well at present, the doctors are agreed that her lifespan will be much shorter than normal. They also are agreed that her heart could not possibly survive a pregnancy. My nephew wants children but he is content with the idea of adoption and so is she. Although he is keeping an emotional distance for now, he thinks that he could easily love her and consider marriage. In this case,could NFP be used indefinitely?

The problem here is that NFP isn’t 100% foolproof (neither is contraception for that matter) at preventing pregnancy. I can see real problems with this whole scenario.

 

[kage_ar]

Change - seems you feel that an imperfect child is such a horror that you would not marry if it meant the mere chance of a defective child. Do I have that right?

If that is the case, may I ask you to ask Bl. Margaret of Castillo to pray that your heart will be softened toward us imperfect people? And ask for a blessing for those parents who love and care for those defective kids?

 

[kentuckyliz]

ChangingHeart, what leads you to believe your children would be MR/DD or behavior disordered? Does a lot of that run in your family? Have you damaged your genetics with radiation exposure or severe drug/alcohol abuse?

It’s “special” ed because it’s not common. Affects a very small percentage of the population. Outliers on the bell curve.

What if your kids were on the opposite end of the bell curve? The superbright and healthy? Then the other risk is to miss out on that.

The Church does not prohibit the marriage of infertile, older, or postmenopausal people, or those who must avoid pregnancy for a valid and grave medical reason.

If your nephew loves this woman, and they are both open to adoption as their means to have children, that is wonderful.

NFP will be safer for her in the long term usage scenario compared to long term use of hormonal contraception, which is linked to higher rates of breast cancer. If she never has a completed pregnancy or breastfeeding, that increases her risk enough without adding in extra risk factors. Their willingness to use NFP shows a great respect for her health.

 

[ClaireS]

The whole concept of marriage has just been changed for me. It no longer seems as beautiful as it once did. I dreamed of having a wife someday, but the Church teaching has crushed my hopes and dreams.

This has truly been one of the worst days of my life.

I just see all these poor parents with children who are either emotionally disturbed or autistic, parents that have to constantly fear for their own physical safety in their own homes. They don’t get a moment of peace or tranquility. Not much time to pray or read the Bible. Can’t even bring their kids to Church as they would be too violent. These kids don’t move out at 18 or 21 as they can’t function in the world. They just become bigger and more dangerously violent, as their parents grow older and less physically fit to deal with them. I don’t ever want to risk putting myself(or my future wife) in that situation. I thought NFP was the answer to this problem, but apparently, it is not. Lifelong cellibacy is the only way.

Have courage. Trust in God. If it is His will that you be married He will give you the grace to deal with what comes. You can be convinced that you don’t want to risk children, but when/if you meet the right person you may find that you have a real desire to have a child with her.

Life is a risk. Many people die in auto accidents every day. Some are paralyzed. Don’t you drive or ride in cars? There you have the illusion that you are in control but someone could run into you. Let God be in control. If you and your future wife stay close to Him He will bring good out of even difficult situations.

Jesus said, “Be not afraid.” and “Follow Me.” Fear and discouragement are from the evil one.

 

[He_Man]

I forgive you for your uncharitable comments, too.

I’ll sleep better tonight now knowing an anonymous stranger on a message board forgave me…

 

[Seatuck]

Changing,
Life does not come with guarantees that nothing challenging will befall us. You do not have a guarantee that your wife or you for that matter will not become an invalid requiring a great deal of care and sacrifice for the rest of your married life. God does guarantee to be with us and give us the grace to handle these issues of life. Try to work up some trust in him.

 

[ChangingHeart]

Change - seems you feel that an imperfect child is such a horror that you would not marry if it meant the mere chance of a defective child. Do I have that right?
QUOTE]

No. We are all imperfect. I am specifically referring to a child who is so extremely behaviorally disordered that he makes his parents and other siblings prisoners in their own homes, constantly fearing for their lives 24/7 WITHOUT being the least bit paranoid.

Anyone who isn’t or never has been down in the trenches whether as a parent, caregiver, or teacher of such children, really can’t even remotely fathom what those children are like, and what they put people who are responsible for them through.

The term, “defective” should not be used to describe a human being, a child of God whose sins Jesus died for. That is more of an appropriate term for describing an appliance.

 

[ChangingHeart]

ChangingHeart, what leads you to believe your children would be MR/DD or behavior disordered? Does a lot of that run in your family? Have you damaged your genetics with radiation exposure or severe drug/alcohol abuse?

In all likelihood they wouldn’t be. It doesn’t run in my family, and no, I haven’t damaged my genetics. That is irrelevant, however. Conditions such as autism can occur in children whose parents did everything properly, and have no prior genetics regarding the condition. Also, who is to say that my future wife’s genetics won’t cause it?

 

[serrlorca]

You won’t find true hapiness trying to avoid pain in life. You will find it loving. But you won’t be able to really love without help from the “Sacramentum Caritatis”.

As one Spansih writer once wrote (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross): “At the dawn of (your) life you’ll be examined in (the subject of) love.”

 

[pemtia]

Peace,
I have read every post in this thread, and I have a question related to this issue that I couldn’t find an absolute answer for.
Should my daughter ever become pregnant again both she and the baby will die. It’s 100% certain. After the birth of her third child she was left with only half a uterus. The doctor asked if it was to be removed and was told no. ( We still don’t know who said no, or why, and it doesn’t really matter anymore.) He repaired all the internal damage that had occured and stated emphatically that should another child attempt to grow in such a confined space, both Catherine and the child would be lost.
My question is; Is she to remain celibate throughout her life, or is it acceptable within the law of God that she go now, after the fact, and have a hystorectomy, as nothing but death can reslult from conception?
yours in Christ,
Patricia

 

[serrlorca]

That is a reason grave enough to avoid pregnancy.

She can avoid pregnancy because the main reason to do it it’s not to avoid pregnancy itself but to keep herself alive.

However, she shouldn’t use any anticonceptive method based on expelling a created embryo.

As for histerectomy, sexual relations could become painful for her.

 

[1ke]

My question is; Is she to remain celibate throughout her life, or is it acceptable within the law of God that she go now, after the fact, and have a hystorectomy, as nothing but death can reslult from conception?

She cannot have a hysterectomy to prevent conception. That is sterilization and is never a moral act. She can have a hysterectomy because her uterus is damaged, if she is having some other trouble with it or the doctor thinks there might be trouble (other than pregnancy).

Regarding pregnancy, she of course would need to avoid another child, and she can do that by utilizing NFP.