Martin Luther and The Ten Commandments

[GKC]

Well, of course.

Why would you ever have doubted it?

Edwin

Everyone knows Chick is a loon. Save only his fellow loons.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

What is the second commandment in the Catholic numbering? Please correct this ignorant heretic.

You don’t “realize” anything of the kind. You think it, because you can’t be bothered to perform the simple act of asking Protestants what they think about Luther.

I for one think Luther was a brilliant but intemperate theologian who did some good and a lot of harm to the Church. Many of his theological insights were valuable and could have contributed to the synthesis of Catholic doctrine had he not identified them arrogantly with the Gospel. (And the Church’s reaction to him wasn’t perfect either, as most Catholics will admit.)

Edwin

Roman Catholics grouped the Ten Commandments this way:

Thou shalt not have other God’s beside me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

Protestant version:

Thou shalt have no other God’s before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt no tkill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

No doubt the post-Luther Protestants wanted to include “graven images” because they opposed statues and crucifixes and anything “Romish”. Yet, Protestants use crosses in their churches, wear crosses, have crosses hanging from their bibles etc…and in recent decades have gone back to using the ancient symbol of the fish to represent Jesus, displaying it on windows, cars, t-shirts etc… why those aren’t graven images and crucifixes and statues are, is something I’ve never understood.
If you take that “graven images” prohibition seriously, that eliminates art entirely, and also photographs.
But the main thing is that Catholics who have been properly educated about their faith understand that the Second commandment “Thou shalt have no other God’s before me” is meant to include the next three verses from Exodus and that the prohibition is not against graven images per se, but against worshipping graven images. Despite what Protestants think, we, as Catholics, do not worship statues.

 

[JonNC]

Roman Catholics grouped the Ten Commandments this way:

Thou shalt not have other God’s beside me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

Protestant version:

Thou shalt have no other God’s before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt no tkill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

No doubt the post-Luther Protestants wanted to include “graven images” because they opposed statues and crucifixes and anything “Romish”. Yet, Protestants use crosses in their churches, wear crosses, have crosses hanging from their bibles etc…and in recent decades have gone back to using the ancient symbol of the fish to represent Jesus, displaying it on windows, cars, t-shirts etc… why those aren’t graven images and crucifixes and statues are, is something I’ve never understood.
If you take that “graven images” prohibition seriously, that eliminates art entirely, and also photographs.
But the main thing is that Catholics who have been properly educated about their faith understand that the Second commandment “Thou shalt have no other God’s before me” is meant to include the next three verses from Exodus and that the prohibition is not against graven images per se, but against worshipping graven images. Despite what Protestants think, we, as Catholics, do not worship statues.

One of my priceless possessions is my father’s crucifix. He was a Lutheran pastor.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2142

Q. Why do Lutherans not number the commandments like the other Protestants?
A. The differing enumerations of the Ten Commandments among various religious traditions is not generally regarded as a doctrinal matter dividing the churches. The Oxford Companion to the Bible (Oxford, 1993) is correct when it states: “The contents of the Ten Commandments are . . . the same for all of the religious communities, despite the differences in their enumeration.”

The Lutheran Cyclopedia notes in its article on the “Decalogue” that the Bible neither numbers the commandments nor determines their respective position, and for this reason divergent enumeration has occurred. The Jews make Exodus 20:2 the 1st Commandment, Exodus 20:3-6 the 2nd, and Exodus 20:17 the 10th. The Eastern Orthodox and the Reformed churches make Exodus 20:2-3 the 1st, Exodus 20:4-6 the 2nd, and Exodus 20:17 the 10th. The Lutheran and Roman Catholic churches regard Exodus 20:4 as a part of (or commentary on) the 1st Commandment (Exodus 20:3). They then draw the 2nd from Exodus 20:7, the 3rd from Exodus 20:8-11, and make Exodus 17a the 9th and Exodus 17b the 10th. The Jews divide the Ten Commandments into 2 groups of 5 each. Lutheran and Roman Catholics assign 3 commandments to the 1st table and 7 to the 2nd. Eastern Orthodox and Reformed churches assign 4 to the 1st table and 6 to the 2nd.

Bolding and italics mine.

Lutheran Numbering

1. Thou shalt have no other gods.
   2) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.
2. Thou shalt sanctify the holy-day.
   4)Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother [that it may be well with thee and thou mayest live long upon the earth].
   5)Thou shalt not kill.
   6)Thou shalt not commit adultery.
   7)Thou shalt not steal.
   8)Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
   9)Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
   10)Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**…Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. **

I think you leaping to a mistaken conclusion. :tsktsk:

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908) article called, “Decalogue”:

The division and ordering of the commandments in use in the Catholic Church is that adopted by St. Augustine (Quæstiones in Exodum, q. 71). That which is commonly in vogue amongst Protestants seems to have Origen for its sponsor. He regarded Exodus 20:3-6, as containing two distinct commandments and in this hypothesis in order to keep the number ten, verse 17 would have but one.

From the same 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article called “The Ten Commandments”, it states:

The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against – the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord’s Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making ***a division of the final precept on concupiscence–the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods. ***

Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus, Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division.

In either numbering scheme, all commandments are presented.

Before copying and pasting rubbish from another web page, I recommend you do further research on the matter.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… No doubt the post-Luther Protestants wanted to include “graven images” because they opposed statues and crucifixes and anything “Romish”. …

While I complement your zeal for the Catholic Church, I believe you need a larger admixture of truth.

The Protestants didn’t come up with the alternate numbering of the Commandments. This dates back to the Jews of the first century, and even Origen (a Catholic) seems to have used it.

To put it in Air Force terms, you seem to be all “thrust,” but very little “vector control.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

**… Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. **

Perhaps you missed the point, but this webpage that you took this from is condemning Luther’s catechism for NOT following the usual Protestant numbering.

According to the Lutheran Small Catechism:

The First Commandment.
Thou shalt have no other gods.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.
The Second Commandment.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.
The Third Commandment.
Thou shalt sanctify the holy-day.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred, and gladly hear and learn it.
The Fourth Commandment.
Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother [that it may be well with thee and thou mayest live long upon the earth].
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not despise nor anger our parents and masters, but give them honor, serve, obey, and hold them in love and esteem.
The Fifth Commandment.
Thou shalt not kill.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need [in every need and danger of life and body].
The Sixth Commandment.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in words and deeds, and each love and honor his spouse.
The Seventh Commandment.
Thou shalt not steal.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not take our neighbor’s money or property, nor get them by false ware or dealing, but help him to improve and protect his property and business [that his means are preserved and his condition is improved].
The Eighth Commandment.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.
The Ninth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not craftily seek to get our neighbor’s inheritance or house, and obtain it by a show of [justice and] right, etc., but help and be of service to him in keeping it.
The Tenth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not estrange, force, or entice away our neighbor’s wife, servants, or cattle, but urge them to stay and [diligently] do their duty.

This the same rendering as the Catholic Catechism, right?

What you’ve stumbled across is a poorly constructed argument against Lutherans, which also doubles as a poorly constructed argument against Catholics.

The fact is, the decalogue’s numbering system has not been standard in the history of Christianity, and there’s no “sacred” numbering system that must be followed. For instance, Origen’s number differed from Augustine’s yet both were Catholic.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Perhaps you missed the point, but this webpage that you took this from is condemning Luther’s catechism for NOT following the usual Protestant numbering.

According to the Lutheran Small Catechism:

This the same rendering as the Catholic Catechism, right?

What you’ve stumbled across is a poorly constructed argument against Lutherans, which also doubles as a poorly constructed argument against Catholics.

The fact is, the numbering system has not been standard in the history of Christianity. For instance, Origen’s number differed from Augustine’s yet both were Catholic.

I did not take it from any web page, but I am enjoying your perserverance for Luther.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I did not take it from any web page, but I am enjoying your perserverance for Luther.

Then the mistake was all your own?

I couldn’t care less for Luther. He was a heretic.

I do hope you’ve learned something about Catholicisim, however, and the varying ways of numbering the commandments used by the Catholic Church.

 

[gcnuss]

I did not take it from any web page, but I am enjoying your perserverance for Luther.

OneTrueCathApos:

Your original post said:

Martin Luther did not believe all of God’s Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20:20-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Both Exodus and Deuteronomy list the Ten commandments in the same order. Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. Therefore to show Ten Commandments in his Catechisms after eliminating the Second, he then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and number Ten.
Wherever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country,
they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. In order to prepare you for this deceit, Luther states on page 44 of the Small Catechism the following:

“The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but he did not say which is the First, the Second, the Third etc…Not all churches use the same ordering in numbering the Commandments.”

This statement is to cover Luther’s deceit, should you notice in his Catechism that the Second Commandment of the bible is omitted by Luther. He then takes the Third commandment and lists it as the Second commandment.
Very sneaky actions for a man who claimed to believe God’s Word!

The website mention by Jon a few posts back,
jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/D…mmandments.htm
says:

Luther did not believe all of God’s Ten Commandments as recorded in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Both Exodus and Deuteronomy list the Ten in the same order. Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. Therefore, to show ten commandments in his catechisms after eliminating the Second, he than takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and number Ten.

Wherever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, they are always in the same order as given in the Word of God.

In order to prepare you for this deceit, he states on Page 44 of The Small Catechism the following:

NOTE: “The Lord gave the Ten commandments, but he did not say which is the First, the Second, the Third, etc. Not all churches use the same order in numbering the Commandments.”

This statement is to cover Luther’s deceit, should you notice in his catechism that the Second Commandment of the Bible is omitted by Luther. He then takes the Third Commandment and lists it as the Second Commandment. Very sneaky by a man who claimed to believe God.

Quite a coincidence, no?

 

[BlestOne]

As amusing as this thread has been… I have to tell you… The Catholics and Lutherans do number the commandments the same. I have heard this argument wayyyy too many times used incorrectly… Graven Images always seems at the center of the issue for Protestants. It seems that their definition and the Catholic definition of graven images is not the same. Graven images was about worshiping an image and believing the actual image was a God… But in their haste to separate as far as they could from Catholicism, some Protestant traditions changed the definition to include statues, icons, stained glass, and yes even the corpus from the crucifix. These items are not worshiped… anymore than pictures of old Aunt Eliza who was the model of Christian virtue that you leave hanging in your homes… You walk by it, you look at it, it reminds you of a person that you would aspire to be like…but you don’t WORSHIP her or believe she is a “God” now do you?

I personally think this one is a no-brainer… let’s see… hmmm… Catholics were the first Christians… and Lutherans were the first to break away… and they both use the same 10 commandments… I wonder when the change took place… it had to be after these… see what I mean?

Now… the major source of my amusement… who said it is numbered in the Bible? Do you know Biblical history? Did the Bible come complete with verse numbering from the start? Absolutely not! I guess you may even think it came with a commentary in the side/foot notes… sorry… it didn’t… These were added later… much later than the books of the Bible were written… and much later than they were cannonized…

I have a real novel idea… take a bible study that actually teaches the history of the Bible and uses historical context… or even look at your question logically… if the two oldest Christian religions use the same numbering… then it was changed after that… if you need help knowing when each denomination was established you can borrow my tee shirt…
http://www.catholicposters.com/shop/images/products/fullimages/631.jpg
There you go…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Martin Luther did not believe all of God’s Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20:20-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Both Exodus and Deuteronomy list the Ten commandments in the same order. Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. Therefore to show Ten Commandments in his Catechisms after eliminating the Second, he then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and number Ten.
**Wherever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, **
they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. In order to prepare you for this deceit, Luther states on page 44 of the Small Catechism the following:

"The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but he did not say which is the First, the Second, the Third etc…Not all churches use the same ordering in numbering the Commandments."

This statement is to cover Luther’s deceit, should you notice in his Catechism that the Second Commandment of the bible is omitted by Luther. He then takes the Third commandment and lists it as the Second commandment.
Very sneaky actions for a man who claimed to believe God’s Word!

Are you a Protestant troll trying to make Catholics look like brain-dead bigots ? If you were a Catholic, you would know that we are accused almost every month of “leaving out the Second Commandment”.​

As for deceit - there is none. Catholics, Lutherans & the Orthodox have one numbering, while Jews & most Protestants adopt another. If Luther wanted to hide a Commandment, where are the contemporary attacks upon him for so doing ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Dear OneTrueCathApos,
It appears you took this almost word for word from the following website.
jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/ten_commandments.htm

This is a viciously anti-Catholic and anti-Lutheran website. I personally would not rely on this site for any truth about the Catholic or Lutheran traditions. Mr. Stewart and Mr. Younce hate us both with equal venom. I would NEVER use this site to underatand or condemn Catholic teaching!

Jon

I’m very sorry to hear that it attacks Lutherans too. I had no idea. ​

 

[Contarini]

Roman Catholics grouped the Ten Commandments this way:

Thou shalt not have other God’s beside me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

And isn’t this exactly the same numbering as Luther’s? Why then are you criticizing Luther for this?

I don’t know how many times we have to repeat this before you get it: you are taking up a fundamentalist Protestant critique of both Lutherans and Catholics. It makes no sense for you to use this. It’s like quoting a Unitarian website and using it to argue that Protestants are heretics for believing in the Trinity. It’s just plain bizarre.

Edwin

 

[Steadfast]

Realizing that he has made (another) horrible mistake, our own resident “Catholic Jack Chick” hastens to move the goalposts to the far more generally acceptable “Luther was a heretic and you Protestants love him” meme.

Fact: The Lutheran and Catholic numbering of the commandments is EXACTLY the same. This has been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread.

OP answered.

Try again, OTC.

 

[BlestOne]

And now for the party where the Catholics and Lutherans bang their heads together and pray for God’s mercy and deliverance from other peoples ignorance… :slapfight:

Contarini… you are invited too…
:banghead::banghead::stretcher:

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

And isn’t this exactly the same numbering as Luther’s? Why then are you criticizing Luther for this?

I don’t know how many times we have to repeat this before you get it: you are taking up a fundamentalist Protestant critique of both Lutherans and Catholics. It makes no sense for you to use this. It’s like quoting a Unitarian website and using it to argue that Protestants are heretics for believing in the Trinity. It’s just plain bizarre.

Edwin

I am not criticizing Luther, I just wanted to show how Protestants Ten Commandments differ from the Catholic’s.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

**Martin Luther did not believe all of God’s Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20:20-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Both Exodus and Deuteronomy list the Ten commandments in the same order. Luther did not believe the Second Commandment, so he omitted it in his Large and Small Catechism. Therefore to show Ten Commandments in his Catechisms after eliminating the Second, he then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and number Ten.
Wherever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country,
they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. In order to prepare you for this deceit, Luther states on page 44 of the Small Catechism the following:

“The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but he did not say which is the First, the Second, the Third etc…Not all churches use the same ordering in numbering the Commandments.”

This statement is to cover Luther’s deceit, should you notice in his Catechism that the Second Commandment of the bible is omitted by Luther. He then takes the Third commandment and lists it as the Second commandment.
**Very sneaky actions for a man who claimed to believe God’s Word!

Contarini, read this post again…

 

[Contarini]

I am not criticizing Luther, I just wanted to show how Protestants Ten Commandments differ from the Catholic’s.

You did criticize Luther in your original post. And you criticized him for agreeing with Catholicism.

Do you routinely forget your own earlier posts?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Contarini, read this post again…

I did, and that’s precisely why I’m calling you to account. You are quoting from a fundamentalist website criticizing Luther for agreeing with the Catholic Church on this point.

Edwin

 

[BlestOne]

And now for the party where the Catholics and Lutherans bang their heads together and pray for God’s mercy and deliverance from other peoples ignorance… :slapfight:

Contarini… you are invited too…
:banghead::banghead::stretcher:

I did, and that’s precisely why I’m calling you to account. You are quoting from a fundamentalist website criticizing Luther for agreeing with the Catholic Church on this point.

Edwin

Come on Edwin… join the headbangers party…