Martin Luther and The Ten Commandments

[Steadfast]

Luther disagreed with the Catholic church…

On many things.

But not on the numbering of the ten commandments.

If you want to discuss how sick and heretical he was, maybe you should start a thread to that effect rather than wasting everyone’s time with nonsense and then changing the discussion.

If you do so, please be prepared with good data rather than gobbledy-gook from the fringes.

And, brother, getting a PhD isn’t easy, but forget about it. Contarini said nothing, I outed him and, frankly, Hahn is a hack.

He won’t debate anyone and I find it odd that he said in Rome Sweet Home that he couldn’t find anyone on the whole staff at Gordon-Conwell (a fairly prestigious conservative Protestant seminary) who could defend Sola Scriptura.

He doesn’t say they did not do so to his satisfaction; he says that they couldn’t, which is nonsense. Any number of them could and I am sure did; Hahn just didn’t like their answers.

And this is why I consider him a hack.

 

[GKC]

The website I found, was one in comparison to the many things I have said that are true about Luther. You can downplay him all you want to, he was still a heretic and a sick man. I would love to see contarini go head to head with another brilliant man who has his BA with a triple-major in theology, Philosophy and Economics as well as his Master of Divinity and his PH.D in Biblical Theology. He is currently a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville. The infamous Dr. Scott Hahn. He would never ever argue about Luther. He already knows being an ex-Protestant turned Catholic since 1986
Anyone can receive a PH.D in anything. Takes a little time. It is also the degrees you receive before that.

I don’t down play Luther at all. I do own roughly half a dozen books on him, but I have no particular use for the man.

I’m familiar with Dr. Hahn’s work. I doubt that he would find anything in what Contarini has said here to differ with, Contarini mainly having concentrated on your odd concept of enumerating things. So the point lies in a comparision between Contarini and yourself. Which, unfortunately, puts you at a marked disadvantage.

On another point, can you supply the title and author of what I think you have referred to as a bio of Luther? If you stated it before, I missed it.

GKC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**If Martin Luther was doing **
God’s work, why did he fail at his attempt to “reform” the Catholic church? A man that works with God’s approval doesn’t fail, because God doesn’t fail.

That is prosperity theology. There is no theological or Biblical or doctrinal reason why Christians with God’s approval should not fail in what they do.​

But lets suppose that prosperity theology is valid: there have been repeated attempts since 1570 to re-Catholicise England, & Wales, & Scotland: their success has been modest, to say the least. If PT were valid, it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that God does not wish that part of the world to be re-Catholicised - & that may be just what God does wish. He may have something better in store, of which at present we know nothing.

This whole business of Divine approval is complicated by the fact that the results of men’s prayers & actions are very largely hidden from them; & they may bear fruit a long time after they have been prayer or carried out. Equally, immediate success is not necessarily a blessing. So the argument that because

• God does not fail (which is true)
  therefore
• A man who works with His approval, will not fail
  is inconclusive at best. Humanly speaking, Jesus was an utter failure - the Cross does not allow for prosperity theology.

 

[Steadfast]

I don’t down play Luther at all. I do own roughly half a dozen books on him, but I have no particular use for the man.

I’m familiar with Dr. Hahn’s work. I doubt that he would find anything in what Contarini has said here to differ with, Contarini mainly having concentrated on your odd concept of enumerating things. So the point lies in a comparision between Contarini and yourself. Which, unfortunately, puts you at a marked disadvantage.

On another point, can you supply the title and author of what I think you have referred to as a bio of Luther? If you stated it before, I missed it.

GKC

I’ll bet dollars to pesos it’s that hatchet job by O’Hare.

“The Truth about Luther” should be put in the same pile with Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” as slanderous mean-spirited propaganda rather than serious scholarship.

 

[GKC]

I’ll bet dollars to pesos it’s that hatchet job by O’Hare.

“The Truth about Luther” should be put in the same pile with Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” as slanderous mean-spirited propaganda rather than serious scholarship.

Shhh. I wanted to get the answer from her.

Up there with the TRAIL OF BLOOD, if we are correct.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

On many things.

But not on the numbering of the ten commandments.

If you want to discuss how sick and heretical he was, maybe you should start a thread to that effect rather than wasting everyone’s time with nonsense and then changing the discussion.

If you do so, please be prepared with good data rather than gobbledy-gook from the fringes.

And, brother, getting a PhD isn’t easy, but forget about it. Contarini said nothing, I outed him and, frankly, Hahn is a hack.

He won’t debate anyone and I find it odd that he said in Rome Sweet Home that he couldn’t find anyone on the whole staff at Gordon-Conwell (a fairly prestigious conservative Protestant seminary) who could defend Sola Scriptura.

He doesn’t say they did not do so to his satisfaction; he says that they couldn’t, which is nonsense. Any number of them could and I am sure did; Hahn just didn’t like their answers.

And this is why I consider him a hack.

Jealousy will get you nowhere, and frankly, you find him a hack because he is now a devout Catholic…and a brilliant one.
He is right about Sola Scripture, it’s just that people as yourself don’t want to hear it. Good for you Dr. Hahn!

 

[nicolep]

Why do you, as a “Catholic” want to argue with me, a Catholic about Luther who tried to divide your church? There is something wrong here…

I’m not arguing about Luther. I asked a direct question, which you have chosen not to answer. I have in no way defended Luther. There is something wrong with someone who claims to be a Catholic Apologist who spouts untruths and refused to answer questions posed when proven wrong. It’s not a good representation of Catholics.

 

[Steadfast]

Jealousy will get you nowhere, and frankly, you find him a hack because he is now a devout Catholic…and a brilliant one.
He is right about Sola Scripture, it’s just that people as yourself don’t want to hear it. Good for you Dr. Hahn!

Riiiiight

No, I consider him a hack because he lied in his testimony and now makes his living as a poster boy for evangelical conversions to Rome rather than just being a professor of theology at FU Steubenville.

 

[Steadfast]

I’m not arguing about Luther. I asked a direct question, which you have chosen not to answer. I have in no way defended Luther. There is something wrong with someone who claims to be a Catholic Apologist who spouts untruths and refused to answer questions posed when proven wrong. It’s not a good representation of Catholics.

She believes that even when she lies or is wrong you should still back her up…because you’re Catholic and being Catholic is more important than telling the truth and exhibiting solidarity is more important than presenting your faith winsomely.

 

[nicolep]

She believes that even when she lies or is wrong you should still back her up…because your Catholic and being Catholic is more important than telling the truth and exhibiting solidarity is more important than presenting your faith winsomely.

Then her beliefs have strayed far from the truth and I personally pray that she realizes this reasoning is very un-Christian and un-Catholic.

If someone cannot represent Catholicism in the correct light, they need not represent it at all.

Catholics get enough flack from other people without adding fuel to the fire such as these sorts of threads.

 

[Steadfast]

Then her beliefs have strayed far from the truth and I personally pray that she realizes this reasoning is very un-Christian and un-Catholic.

If someone cannot represent Catholicism in the correct light, they need not represent it at all.

Catholics get enough flack from other people without adding fuel to the fire such as these sorts of threads.

Nicole,

Every time I encounter someone like her, I remind myself of all the dear Catholics I have met here and IRL who care about the truth and who represent their faith well, firmly and yet attractively.

And I am grateful for them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jealousy will get you nowhere, and frankly, you find him a hack because he is now a devout Catholic…and a brilliant one.
He is right about Sola Scripture, it’s just that people as yourself don’t want to hear it. Good for you Dr. Hahn!

How is this post to be squared with posts 56 & 60 ?​

Or is Dr. Hahn “kosher” because he says the “right” things ? As you say in post 56: “Having a PH.D doesn’t make you any smarter, in fact most who are “brilliant” don’t have any common sense.” Does that description include him ? And do only Catholics with Ph.D.s, & no other Christians, have anything worth saying about Luther ? If so, on what grounds is that so ?

 

[nicolep]

Nicole,

Every time I encounter someone like her, I remind myself of all the dear Catholics I have met here and IRL who care about the truth and who represent their faith well, firmly and yet attractively.

And I am grateful for them.

Very true, thank you for the reminder.

 

[jblake]

GKC;:

The Truth about Luther" should be put in the same pile with Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” as slanderous mean-spirited propaganda rather than serious scholarship.

Up there with the TRAIL OF BLOOD, if we are correct.

Is the text in those works as bad as the graphics?

jonathon

 

[jblake]

OneTrueCathApos:

f Martin Luther was doing
God’s work, why did he fail at his attempt to “reform” the Catholic church?

Did he fail?

The historical record shows that the Catholic Church changed its practices, to the reforms that Luther was seeking.

It can also be argued that both the theology and doctrine changed, after Luther’s demise.

jonathon

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

The website I found, was one in comparison to the many things I have said that are true about Luther. You can downplay him all you want to, he was still a heretic and a sick man. I would love to see contarini go head to head with another brilliant man who has his BA with a triple-major in theology, Philosophy and Economics as well as his Master of Divinity and his PH.D in Biblical Theology. He is currently a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville. The infamous Dr. Scott Hahn. He would never ever argue about Luther. He already knows being an ex-Protestant turned Catholic since 1986
Anyone can receive a PH.D in anything. Takes a little time. It is also the degrees you receive before that.

What people are pointing out is your failure to show some humility and admit that you made an error in creating this thread, which presented a completely false attack. There’s no shame in admitting that you’ve made a mistake or an incorrect argument, even when you’re on the right side of a debate. Admitting error when it is made plain doesn’t make you look weak, but rather shows that you are authentically seeking after the truth. Quite the contrary, refusing to admit an error even when it is plain to see by all only causes you to lose credibility, therefore weakening your ability to make the case for what may be a right cause.

All too often the biggest obstacles to truth are those who advocate a right cause for blatant false and incorrect reasons. Having the right conclusions does not free anyone from the responsibility of forming a coherent argument for those conclusions.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

What people are pointing out is your failure to show some humility and admit that you made an error in creating this thread, which presented a completely false attack. There’s no shame in admitting that you’ve made a mistake or an incorrect argument, even when you’re on the right side of a debate. Admitting error when it is made plain doesn’t make you look weak, but rather shows that you are authentically seeking after the truth. Quite the contrary, refusing to admit an error even when it is plain to see by all only causes you to lose credibility, therefore weakening your ability to make the case for what may be a right cause.

All too often the biggest obstacles to truth are those who advocate a right cause for blatant false and incorrect reasons. Having the right conclusions does not free anyone from the responsibility of forming a coherent argument for those conclusions.

I stand by everything I have said. Perhaps others here should do their own research on the heretic and see just what he taught and thought. This thread turned into lots of people here throwing stones when they themselves should examine their own conscious. It is what it is.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Then her beliefs have strayed far from the truth and I personally pray that she realizes this reasoning is very un-Christian and un-Catholic.

If someone cannot represent Catholicism in the correct light, they need not represent it at all.

Catholics get enough flack from other people without adding fuel to the fire such as these sorts of threads.

Oh please…it’s obvious you know nothing about this man. I stand by everything I have said. It is what it is. When Luther says things like:
"Be a sinner"
“Doing good is more dangerous than sinning”
Peasants deserve their harsh treatment
The Bible could use some improvement etc…
Fact is Martin Luther DID NOT believe in all of God’s Commandments as recorded in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Luther DID NOT believe in the Second commandment, so he omitted it in his small and large Catechism. He then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and Number Ten.
Whenever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. IN ORDER TO PREPARE YOU FOR THIS DECEIT, MARTIN LUTHER STATES ON PAGE 44 OF THE SMALL CATECHISM THE FOLLOWING:
"The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but He did not say WHICH is the First, the Second, the Third etc…NOT ALL CHURCHES USE THE SAME ORDERING IN NUMBERING THE COMMANDMENTS"

When you have read his small and large Catechism, concerning these Commandments, then we’ll talk, I have nothing left to say to you.

 

[Contarini]

Luther disagreed with the Catholic church…

But not about the numbering of the 10 Commandments.

Are we agreed on this?

Can you say it with me: The Catholic Church numbers the 10 Commandments the same way Luther did!

And I find it funny that Dr. Hahn’s credentials count, while mine don’t. I respect Dr. Hahn, and I am sure that he would straighten you out in about ten seconds on this particular point.

Edwin

 

[First_of_9]

Fact is Martin Luther DID NOT believe in all of God’s Commandments as recorded in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Luther DID NOT believe in the Second commandment, so he omitted it in his small and large Catechism. He then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and Number Ten.
**Whenever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. **

From the (Very Catholic) Baltimore Catechism:

**Q. 1130. Which are the Commandments of God? **
A. The Commandments of God are these ten:
(1) I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them.
***(2) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ***
(3) Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
(4) Honor thy father and thy mother.
(5) Thou shalt not kill. 258
(6) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
(7) Thou shalt not steal.
(8) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
***(9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife. ***
***(10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods. ***

Exactly the same listing that Luther used.