Martin Luther and The Ten Commandments

[nicolep]

Oh please…it’s obvious you know nothing about this man. I stand by everything I have said. It is what it is. When Luther says things like:
"Be a sinner"
“Doing good is more dangerous than sinning”
Peasants deserve their harsh treatment
The Bible could use some improvement etc…
Fact is Martin Luther DID NOT believe in all of God’s Commandments as recorded in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Luther DID NOT believe in the Second commandment, so he omitted it in his small and large Catechism. He then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and Number Ten.
Whenever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. IN ORDER TO PREPARE YOU FOR THIS DECEIT, MARTIN LUTHER STATES ON PAGE 44 OF THE SMALL CATECHISM THE FOLLOWING:
"The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but He did not say WHICH is the First, the Second, the Third etc…NOT ALL CHURCHES USE THE SAME ORDERING IN NUMBERING THE COMMANDMENTS"

When you have read his small and large Catechism, concerning these Commandments, then we’ll talk, I have nothing left to say to you.

Again, I have not said anything about Luther in this thread. My posts haven’t been about him at all. I couldn’t care less about Luther. I’m glad you have nothing left to say to me and I am now ignoring all of your posts. You obviously don’t want to have a discussion.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

From the (Very Catholic) Baltimore Catechism:

**Q. 1130. Which are the Commandments of God? **
A. The Commandments of God are these ten:
(1) I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them.
***(2) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ***
(3) Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
(4) Honor thy father and thy mother.
(5) Thou shalt not kill. 258
(6) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
(7) Thou shalt not steal.
(8) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
***(9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife. ***
***(10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods. ***

Exactly the same listing that Luther used.

The number Two commandment was added:
**THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE.
**Roman Catholics go by the number Two Commandment:
**THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.
**Protestants go by the first of the Two I just gave you.
Why then do you think Protestants always say we worship statues, or graven images?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Again, I have not said anything about Luther in this thread. My posts haven’t been about him at all. I couldn’t care less about Luther. I’m glad you have nothing left to say to me and I am now ignoring all of your posts. You obviously don’t want to have a discussion.

Right, you have bashed me to no avail, that is why I as a Catholic and you as a …Catholic, have nothing more to say because I never argue with my own people. you have constantly battered me throughout this thread. Take the plank out of your own eye first.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

But not about the numbering of the 10 Commandments.

Are we agreed on this?

Can you say it with me: The Catholic Church numbers the 10 Commandments the same way Luther did!

And I find it funny that Dr. Hahn’s credentials count, while mine don’t. I respect Dr. Hahn, and I am sure that he would straighten you out in about ten seconds on this particular point.

Edwin

Well, I have met and spoken with Dr. Hahn and we seem to be on the same page. I am sure you are very knowledgeable in your field, but to be knowledgeable AND to know the truth (his conversion) will outweigh any degree you can have.

 

[ralphinal]

When you count the “Shalt nots” and add in the keep holy and honor, you get 12 commandments. I always wondered why 10 was used.

 

[First_of_9]

The number Two commandment was added:
**THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE. **
Roman Catholics go by the number Two Commandment:
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.
Protestants go by the first of the Two I just gave you.
Why then do you think Protestants always say we worship statues, or graven images?

Listen carefully–Luther used the same listing the Catholic Church uses (and has used). He did **not **change the listing the Church uses. He–oh never mind. . .:banghead:

 

[GKC]

Is the text in those works as bad as the graphics?

jonathon

Worse.

GKC

 

[O.S.Luke]

What people are pointing out is your failure to show some humility and admit that you made an error in creating this thread, which presented a completely false attack. There’s no shame in admitting that you’ve made a mistake or an incorrect argument, even when you’re on the right side of a debate. Admitting error when it is made plain doesn’t make you look weak, but rather shows that you are authentically seeking after the truth. Quite the contrary, refusing to admit an error even when it is plain to see by all only causes you to lose credibility, therefore weakening your ability to make the case for what may be a right cause.

All too often the biggest obstacles to truth are those who advocate a right cause for blatant false and incorrect reasons. Having the right conclusions does not free anyone from the responsibility of forming a coherent argument for those conclusions.

Nice try Mirror, but OneFalseCathApos is never wrong. When another Catholic (he calls them “one of my own”) dares to confront him, he ignores them. He is beyond reproach, and the most arrogant aʂʂ I’ve ever met on CAF.

Don’t worry, my brother and sister Catholics - I do not judge Catholicism by his example.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Listen carefully–Luther used the same listing the Catholic Church uses (and has used). He did not change the listing the Church uses. He–oh never mind. . .:banghead:

Then why does it say that he did not believe all of God’s Commandments?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Nice try Mirror, but OneFalseCathApos is never wrong. When another Catholic (he calls them “one of my own”) dares to confront him, he ignores them. He is beyond reproach, and the most arrogant aʂʂ I’ve ever met on CAF.

Don’t worry, my brother and sister Catholics - I do not judge Catholicism by his example.

O.S. Luke, who started the Methodist church? Jesus? I don’t think so. Why do you follow a man made church instead of Jesus Christ’s church? Simple question requires simple answer. :coffeeread:

 

[Lujack]

Right, you have bashed me to no avail, that is why I as a Catholic and you as a …Catholic, have nothing more to say because I never argue with my own people. you have constantly battered me throughout this thread. Take the plank out of your own eye first.

We are all in search of the truth. If something is said that is not the truth, it is our duty to correct each. If I said something false, I would expect you to correct me, regardless of my Catholicism. Similarly, your fellow Catholics will correct you when you are incorrect.

 

[nicolep]

We are all in search of the truth. If something is said that is not the truth, it is our duty to correct each. If I said something false, I would expect you to correct me, regardless of my Catholicism. Similarly, your fellow Catholics will correct you when you are incorrect.

Exactly my point. I didn’t batter anyone in this thread. I asked questions that were routinely disregarded. In any event, I have used the ignore feature so I don’t have to worry about what he/she says anymore.

 

[gcnuss]

Then why does it say that he did not believe all of God’s Commandments?

OTCA,

One last time. Luther is being accused of eliminating “thou shalt not make any graven image” and replacing it with “thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” That website castigates Luther for teaching the Ten Commandments using the same listing that the Catholic Church uses. If Luther is/was guilty of using a spurious version of the commandments, the Catholic Church is equally guilty, in the eyes of the author(s) of that site, because we (Catholics and Lutherans) use the same list. Neither of us uses the version that certain fundamentalists claim is the only correct version.

The site you quoted also goes to great lengths to show that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon.” Do you really want to make your arguments against Luther on the basis of the writings of someone who is that far off base when it comes to Catholicism? Or, for the purposes of bashing a man who has been dead for 462 years, is it a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend?” If so, you have jumped into bed with a very dangerous partner.

 

[O.S.Luke]

O.S. Luke, who started the Methodist church? Jesus? I don’t think so. Why do you follow a man made church instead of Jesus Christ’s church? Simple question requires simple answer. :coffeeread:

You already know the answer - hence, the Strawman lives again. That’s not apologetics, OneFalseCathApos, that’s a whizzing contest. And if you want to whiz further and more than me, go ahead. You win the whizzing contest… which makes sense, since you are full of whiz.

I follow the church where I was initiated into the faith. There was no Catholic Church within a 3-town drive where I grew up. By the way: where were you?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OTCA,

One last time. Luther is being accused of eliminating “thou shalt not make any graven image” and replacing it with “thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” That website castigates Luther for teaching the Ten Commandments using the same listing that the Catholic Church uses. If Luther is/was guilty of using a spurious version of the commandments, the Catholic Church is equally guilty, in the eyes of the author(s) of that site, because we (Catholics and Lutherans) use the same list. Neither of us uses the version that certain fundamentalists claim is the only correct version.

The site you quoted also goes to great lengths to show that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon.” Do you really want to make your arguments against Luther on the basis of the writings of someone who is that far off base when it comes to Catholicism? Or, for the purposes of bashing a man who has been dead for 462 years, is it a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend?” If so, you have jumped into bed with a very dangerous partner.

I got most of my information from Luther’s small and large Catechism. And I don’t jump into bed with anyone.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You already know the answer - hence, the Strawman lives again. That’s not apologetics, OneFalseCathApos, that’s a whizzing contest. And if you want to whiz further and more than me, go ahead. You win the whizzing contest… which makes sense, since you are full of whiz.

I follow the church where I was initiated into the faith. There was no Catholic Church within a 3-town drive where I grew up. By the way: where were you?

Where was I? Always in the church Christ established.

 

[JonNC]

I got most of my information from Luther’s small and large Catechism. And I don’t jump into bed with anyone.

Here is Luther’s small catechism, again:
bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

The First Commandment.

Thou shalt have no other gods.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

**The Second Commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.**
What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.

I challenge you to show me, with references, where in Luther’s Small Catechism he claims the 2nd commandment is as you claim above.

To persist in claiming something when everyone here has shown you that you are incorrect approaches being a lie. I am beginning to believe what an earlier poster thought, that you are a troll pretending to be a Catholic in order to discredit the Catholic Church, and those whom I consider my beloved Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I got most of my information from Luther’s small and large Catechism. And I don’t jump into bed with anyone.

This is a lie.

Jon

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This is a lie.

Jon

So you are calling me a liar? This thread I am done with. I showed everything there is to know about what a lunatic Luther really was. I am a devout Catholic, I love God with all my heart and soul, and for you to insult me saying that I am a troll, I will not tolerate. Look to yourself and perhaps pray that you stop calling people names, especially LIAR. Take the plank out of your own eye.

Goodbye for this thread, have a field day with bashing me. Shame on you all.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

So you are calling me a liar? This thread I am done with. I showed everything there is to know about what a lunatic Luther really was. I am a devout Catholic, I love God with all my heart and soul, and for you to insult me saying that I am a troll, I will not tolerate. Look to yourself and perhaps pray that you stop calling people names, especially LIAR. Take the plank out of your own eye.

Goodbye for this thread, have a field day with bashing me. Shame on you all.

The very small and large catechism which you cited contradict your assertion…if you actually took the time to post quotes from the catechisms you’d see that. It is no crime to be mistaken on an issue, but when someone insists on clinging to a false statement went its falsity has been made plain for all to see, what is one to say?

The point at issue isn’t a matter of interpretation, it can be clearly seen by placing Luther’s catechism alongside the Catholic Church’s. You may as well claim that today is Tuesday, or that 2+2 = 7.

Note that what has caused such a reaction from people is not your opinion on Luther, but your false reasoning. There may be plenty of reasons to reject Luther, but this isn’t one of them, and your refusal to let go of this reason is puzzling.