Martin Luther and The Ten Commandments

[O.S.Luke]

Sounds like you don’t like the truth, even when it is presented to you. When you are confronted with your lies, you do what a lot of dishonest apologists do - you can’t make your point honesty, so you quit and blame us.

So much for the TRUTH, OneFalseCathApos. You are certainly welcome to claim Catholicism as your faith, and it is a wonderful faith. But telling lies (and that’s what they are) about another faith is a dishonest way of praising yourself.

You don’t owe me an apology - but there are some folks here that you do. Catholicism may indeed have all the truth, but you don’t. Be a man and own your mistakes. We’d have a lot more respect for you if you did.

O+

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Sounds like you don’t like the truth, even when it is presented to you. When you are confronted with your lies, you do what a lot of dishonest apologists do - you can’t make your point honesty, so you quit and blame us.

So much for the TRUTH, OneFalseCathApos. You are certainly welcome to claim Catholicism as your faith, and it is a wonderful faith. But telling lies (and that’s what they are) about another faith is a dishonest way of praising yourself.

You don’t owe me an apology - but there are some folks here that you do. Catholicism may indeed have all the truth, but you don’t. Be a man and own your mistakes. We’d have a lot more respect for you if you did.

O+

Like I mentioned earlier, if you were Catholic, you’d be a much better person…

 

[GKC]

Like I mentioned earlier, if you were Catholic, you’d be a much better person…

If you were wiser, or a little more humble, or better read, you’d possibly be a better Roman Catholic representative…

It is not certain, but worth a bet.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

If you were wiser, or a little more humble, or better read, you’d possibly be a better Roman Catholic representative…

It is not certain, but worth a bet.

GKC

Always the ones who are the non-Catholics are supposedly the ones who are so truly knowledgeable in the Catholic faith…just makes me laugh. You guys didn’t break me on here, nor intimidate me because I say the truth, and I have the truth…you don’t.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Always the ones who are the non-Catholics are supposedly the ones who are so truly knowledgeable in the Catholic faith…just makes me laugh. You guys didn’t break me on here, nor intimidate me because I say the truth, and I have the truth…you don’t.

This thread isn’t a question knowledge of the Catholic faith, it’s a question of being able to look at two lists and see that they are the same.

 

[Steadfast]

1. OTCA said Luther used a different parsing of the Ten Commandments than the RCC.
2. He got this information from a scurrilously anti-Catholic website.
3. It has been pointed out repeatedly and verified from both Catholic and Protestant documentary evidence that OTCA is as wrong as the website he posted from.

4.OTCA remains impervious to all this truth and will not admit that he made a mistake preferring to change the discussion and issue blanket statements to the effect that he stands by everything he has said.

Taking all this into consideration, as well as his other interactions on this board, my own conclusion is that he has no credibility on this issue and that he is blinded by partisanship and odium theologicum.

For this reason I urge all of you to have no dealings with him until he admits correction. You may do as you like of course, but this will be my course of action and I humbly suggest you do the same until he demonstrates that he is not in fact incorrigible.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I got some of my info from a website, but I checked it out on others and it said the same thing. I got some of my info from ML small and large Catechism also.
THAT’S IT, STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE. GOODBYE.

 

[O.S.Luke]

We are dealing with illness here, I believe. Pray for healing and wholeness.

 

[JonNC]

I got some of my info from a website, but I checked it out on others and it said the same thing. I got some of my info from ML small and large Catechism also.
THAT’S IT, STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE. GOODBYE.

I am willing to retract my accusation, publicly apologize, and resign from CAF if you will cite a reputable website that proves that Martin Luther held a different 2nd commandment in his Small and Large Catechisms than “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.”

Jon

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oh please…it’s obvious you know nothing about this man. I stand by everything I have said. It is what it is. When Luther says things like:
"Be a sinner"

In its context - a letter to Melanchthon - this is a harmless piece of exaggeration to make a point, namely, that a Christian should have a trust in Christ greater than his sinfulness (which is no more than St. Paul says); if misrepresented, that makes him look like an advocate of sinning. And exactly the same can be said - & has been said - of one of the Rules for Thinking with the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola:​

If we wish to proceed securely in all things, we must hold fast to the following principle: What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines. For I must be convinced that in Christ our Lord, the bridegroom, and in His spouse the Church, only one Spirit holds sway, which governs and rules for the salvation of souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord who gave the Ten Commandments that our holy Mother Church is ruled and governed.

Probably no statement of the Exercises has been more quoted and criticized by non-Catholics than St. Ignatius’ directive that “What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines it.” Even Catholics may suspect something strange in being asked to contradict their convictions. Yet there are few mental attitudes that need to be more urgently cultivated than the willingness to submit our private judgment to the infallible teaching of the Church…

therealpresence.org/archives/Christian_Spirituality/Christian_Spirituality_031.htm

If he’s not a liar because of what he says, Luther is not an immoralist because of what he says: the two statements stand, or fall, together.

"Doing good is more dangerous than sinning"
Peasants deserve their harsh treatment

Luther merely favoured harsh measures - the CC carried them out.​

The Bible could use some improvement etc…
Fact is Martin Luther DID NOT believe in all of God’s Commandments as recorded in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Luther DID NOT believe in the Second commandment, so he omitted it in his small and large Catechism. He then takes the Tenth Commandment and divides it in two, showing it as number Nine and Number Ten.
Whenever the Ten Commandments are on public display in our country, they are always in the same order, and the same one’s as given in the Word of God. IN ORDER TO PREPARE YOU FOR THIS DECEIT, MARTIN LUTHER STATES ON PAGE 44 OF THE SMALL CATECHISM THE FOLLOWING:
"The Lord gave the Ten Commandments, but He did not say WHICH is the First, the Second, the Third etc…NOT ALL CHURCHES USE THE SAME ORDERING IN NUMBERING THE COMMANDMENTS"

That last sentence states a fact - as many OPs have pointed out, in great detail. If the CC can do that, & if St. Thomas Aquinas can do it, as he does - why the fuss over Luther ? If Luther is a deceiver - so is St. Thomas. If St. Thomas is not - then neither is Luther. I’m beginning to get the impression** that what Luther does is wrong, because he is Luther; whereas if the CC does the same thing, that’s all fine & dandy - “Holy Mother Church Is Always Right/Can Do No Wrong”, in fact. That’s not history - that’s Party propaganda **​

When you have read his small and large Catechism, concerning these Commandments, then we’ll talk, I have nothing left to say to you.

 

[JLSamuel818]

Seriously, it looks to be the same.

Why not just ask a Jewish man. He or she will most likely tell you who’s right. There whole lives are dedicated to the Old Testament. If anyone, or any faith that would for sure know the correct numbering of the Ten Commandments, it would definitely be them.

Why not ask them?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

But not about the numbering of the 10 Commandments.

Are we agreed on this?

Can you say it with me: The Catholic Church numbers the 10 Commandments the same way Luther did!

And I find it funny that Dr. Hahn’s credentials count, while mine don’t. I respect Dr. Hahn, and I am sure that he would straighten you out in about ten seconds on this particular point.

Edwin

I rather think it’s because you aren’t “RC” - Hahn counts, because he is. You don’t believe the right things, so what you say can be ignored - however well-founded, etc. it may be. Put another way, some people can be ignored because they are not “ideologically pure” - therefore, facts told by them (however established) are “unfacts”. ​

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the Law of the Ten Commandments. Can anyone think that sin exists where there is no law? Whosoever abrogates the Law must of necessity, abrogate sin also"—Martin Luther

Volume 50 pg. 470-471 “Luther’s Works”

 

[GKC]

Always the ones who are the non-Catholics are supposedly the ones who are so truly knowledgeable in the Catholic faith…just makes me laugh. You guys didn’t break me on here, nor intimidate me because I say the truth, and I have the truth…you don’t.

One can only judge by your performance here. And RCs and non RCs alike have noted that (among other things) you are historically illiterate, unwilling to adress issues where you have been demonstrably proven to be incorrect, and flee percipitantly from rationalilty.

None of this is, in my experience, common to RCs in general; quite the contrary. This leads to the suspicion that you are not an RC at all, but some form of troll. But I’m convinced that is not the case. What you are (IMO) is a committed RC who is totally inept at and unsuited for what you attempt to do. In those respects you might, with some amendments, be a better RC, i.e. better suited to present what you think is your case.

BTW, what was the bio of Luther, to which you made reference?

GKC

 

[GKC]

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the Law of the Ten Commandments. Can anyone think that sin exists where there is no law? Whosoever abrogates the Law must of necessity, abrogate sin also"—Martin Luther

Volume 50 pg. 470-471 “Luther’s Works”

I would be interested to see what you think that quote is saying.

GKC

 

[gcnuss]

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the Law of the Ten Commandments. Can anyone think that sin exists where there is no law? Whosoever abrogates the Law must of necessity, abrogate sin also"—Martin Luther

Volume 50 pg. 470-471 “Luther’s Works”

Would you be good enough to tell me what edition of “Luther’s Works” you are quoting from? I haven’t been able to find this quote in the edition I have.

 

[gcnuss]

Would you be good enough to tell me what edition of “Luther’s Works” you are quoting from? I haven’t been able to find this quote in the edition I have.

Here is what comes closest to the quotation you provided. I could find no reference to the Ten Commandments in Vol. 50 of the edition cited at the end of the following quotation.

It is most surprising to me that anyone can claim that I reject the law or the Ten Commandments, since there is available, in more than one edition, my exposition of the Ten Commandments, which furthermore are daily preached and practiced in our churches. (I am not even mentioning the Confession and the Apology and our other books). Furthermore, the commandments are sung in two versions, as well as painted, printed, carved, and recited by the children morning, noon, and night. I know of no manner in which we do not use them, unless it be that we unfortunately do not practice and paint them with our deeds and our life as we should. I myself, as old and as learned as I am, recite the commandments daily word for word like a child. So ff anyone perchance gained some other impression from my writings and yet saw and perceived that I stressed the catechism so greatly, he might in all fairness have addressed me and said, “Dear Dr. Luther, how is it that you emphasize the Ten Commandments so much, though your teaching is that they are to be discarded?” That is what they should have done, and not worked secretly behind my back and waited for my death, after which they could make of me what they would. Ah well, let them be forgiven who cease doing this.
Luther, M. (1999, c1971). Vol. 47: Luther’s works, vol. 47 : The Christian in Society IV (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther’s Works (Vol. 47, Page 109-110). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

 

[JonNC]

So you are calling me a liar? This thread I am done with. I showed everything there is to know about what a lunatic Luther really was. I am a devout Catholic, I love God with all my heart and soul, and for you to insult me saying that I am a troll, I will not tolerate. Look to yourself and perhaps pray that you stop calling people names, especially LIAR. Take the plank out of your own eye.

Goodbye for this thread, have a field day with bashing me. Shame on you all.

No one here is bashing you, at least not unfairly.

Scenario:

Protestant “N” starts a thread claiming that Catholics worship the saints and the BVM. “N” quotes a disreputible anti-catholic website but does not reference it.
Over dozens of posts, Catholic and nonCatholic posters alike show through Catholic statements that, in fact, Catholics do not worship the saints, but instead practice intercession. “N” continues to claim, against all evidence, that Catholics worship the saints and the BVM.
Near the end of the thread, “N” states, “I got my information from the Catholic Catechism”, even though the Catechism has been quoted various times by others proving “N” wrong.
Catholic “W” then posts that “N’s” statement is a lie.

Questions:

1. At what point is it obvious that “N” is not telling the truth?
2. Is “W” wrong to state that the statement, “I got my information from the Catholic Catechism”, is a lie?

Jon

And btw, I did not call you a liar. I said “This is a lie”, not “you are a liar”. It is quite possible that your statement

I got most of my information from Luther’s small and large Catechism.

is the result of bad information from a disreputible anti-Lutheran website.

 

[Steadfast]

I would be interested to see what you think that quote is saying.

GKC

Me too. This is certainly something Luther would say, and it actually speaks very well of him from a Catholic perspective.

I wonder if OTCA knows what “abrogate” means.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

BTW, I never said Martin Luther changed the grouping of the Ten commandments, that was done by the Anabaptists or the Calvinists.
What I did say that the Lutheran Ten Commandments are slightly different than the Catholic.