Martin Luther Question

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Axion:
Luther started with objections to the abuse of Indulgences, but his deeper problem was a sense of never gaining forgiveness for sin. He had a neurotic sense of his own pollution by sin, and so developed his theory of salvation by Faith Alone. This enabled him to feel “saved” while still being a sinner.

The problem with Luther IMO is that he grew arrogant and began to believe that he was a tool of God’s grace (as great as any man since the Apostles, he claimed), and that he had authority to reform the Church in line with his thinking, setting up a new church of his own. He used violent words against all who opposed him, and started claiming the Catholic Church was anti-christ. He even started stripping books from the bible.

To do this, he made a cynical bargain with the German princes. They would protect him, and hand over Catholic church property to him and his followers, and Luther would back them, giving them monastic lands and a big share of the wealth of the Church. He also backed the princes against the German Peasants, causing much hatred when he urged the Princes to massacre the peasants without mercy. He also urged the persecution of Jews, and their expulsion from Saxony.
Martin Luther did indeed have a mental disorder but the onset of that disorder is questionable. Most believe it to be a late onset disorder such as organic brain disorders… aka Senility.

It may be that he had bipolar disorder, it certainly would account for some of his moods and behavior – however, this disorder usually manifests itself in early adulthood. Luther wasn’t showing signs of manic depressive disorder at this time.

In regards to Axion’s comments, ‘wow, what books are you reading.’

Luther had his problems to be sure but your statements about his behavior are horribly skewed to the point of being non-factual.

Did he disagree with the peasant revolts, yes… did he wish for them to be quelled, certainly… but he did not want them massacred. He didn’t want churches being destroyed and Catholics being murdered so he worked to stop this behavior. Wouldn’t you? He always lamented at the amount of deaths that occurred and this is well documented.

In reference to the Jewish… he wasn’t so much for the persecution of Jews but the stop of Judaism as a religion. He did write on this subject saying that Rabbis that fail to stop teaching should be executed. If they quit teaching then all was well. This is horrid to say the least but check your Catholic history, he is not the only one it seems.

In reference to the Princes… Luther didn’t have rights to any lands; the Princes had full control of the land in their area.
 
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Darrel:
Now that I have been shown the true validity of Christ’s Catholic Church I am having questions about the origins of the protestant church.
I heard recently from a friend that Martin Luther had gone through a difficult or traumatic time in the Church leading up to his separation from it. Can anyone elaborate on his experience and what if any good it did to split the church?
At this point there are a million different flavors of Christianity in the world. That all seems to have started with one person in Mr. Luther. This in not meant to insult Protestants it is meant to objectively analyze what was in Luther’s heart and why when he proclaimed what he proclaimed.
I have a feeling this may have been a seriously painful experience for him as he was leaving the Church he loved. Was this a revolution or a tragedy?
-D
SEE the recent release now on DVD, LUTHER, with Joseph Fiennes. It explains and shows everything, all done in a totally non-bias fashion. Another video on Luther someone gave me was totally biased—slamming the RCC real bad. This one is wonderful !! I highly recommend it to everybody!!!
 
A good movie to see about Luther was made in 1973 with Stacy Keach named LUTHER. It was written by a protestant as a play and turned into a movie. It is very fair to both Martin and Christs Church.

See this link: imdb.com/title/tt0070346/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj0wfHE9bHV0aGVyfGh0bWw9MXxubT1vbg__;fc=2;ft=169;fm=1

The movie Luther made in 2003 is pure propaganda garbage.

Sometimes its easier to watch a movie just to get a basic glimpse into subjects. As you reaserch and read more you’ll be able to remember the movie and expand on the good or bad.

Martin was a disturbed man and we should all pray for him due to the damage he caused Christs Church and those he mislead.
 
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Malachi4U:
A good movie to see about Luther was made in 1973 with Stacy Keach named LUTHER. It was written by a protestant as a play and turned into a movie. It is very fair to both Martin and Christs Church.

See this link: imdb.com/title/tt0070346/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj0wfHE9bHV0aGVyfGh0bWw9MXxubT1vbg__;fc=2;ft=169;fm=1

The movie Luther made in 2003 is pure propaganda garbage.

Sometimes its easier to watch a movie just to get a basic glimpse into subjects. As you reaserch and read more you’ll be able to remember the movie and expand on the good or bad.

Martin was a disturbed man and we should all pray for him due to the damage he caused Christs Church and those he mislead.
Considering Lutherans don’t like the 1973 version its probably
the most accurate the latest movie was a lot of propganda it had Luther translating the first German Bible when in fact it was the 14th different German translation of the Bible. The first 13 were of course catholic. That and the lack of formal debate by catholic officials which did happen by the way give it a false triumphalsim for Lutherans. The catholics were portrayed as mere simpletons. Recant because I said so and the Pope needs the money. There were deep theological issues here but the catholic stance is religated to superstition of relics and indulgences, While some of that was being abused that is not the whole story as implied to by this slanted film of Luther.
 
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Shibboleth:
In reference to the Jewish… he wasn’t so much for the persecution of Jews but the stop of Judaism as a religion. He did write on this subject saying that Rabbis that fail to stop teaching should be executed. If they quit teaching then all was well. This is horrid to say the least but check your Catholic history, he is not the only one it seems.

In reference to the Princes… Luther didn’t have rights to any lands; the Princes had full control of the land in their area.
Considering the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and other church would have to be founded by a person of such standing Luther from all objective accounts had personaolity disorders and was an anti-semite who endorsed types of concentration camps and flat out murder of Jews I think he really falls short of having the righteousness to find his very own religion he is not christ, heck he’s not Buddha, Gandhi or Saint Francis either.
Sure many catholics fall short to but we are not following a religion founded by a fallen catholic but Christ. Luther was just another fallen catholic and you are choosing to follow a relgiion founded by a man and one that wasn’t even as good as Gandhi or Buddha.
Sorry I follow the church that Christ founded not Luther despite the flaws of certain sinners I know its not their church but Christ.
The Lutheran church is just that the church of Luther. Christiantiy got along without it for 1500 years and those outside of the Lutheran church do fine without it.
 
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Maccabees:
Considering the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and other church would have to be founded by a person of such standing Luther from all objective accounts had personaolity disorders and was an anti-semite who endorsed types of concentration camps and flat out murder of Jews I think he really falls short of having the righteousness to find his very own religion he is not christ, heck he’s not Buddha, Gandhi or Saint Francis either.
Sure many catholics fall short to but we are not following a religion founded by a fallen catholic but Christ. Luther was just another fallen catholic and you are choosing to follow a relgiion founded by a man and one that wasn’t even as good as Gandhi or Buddha.
Sorry I follow the church that Christ founded not Luther despite the flaws of certain sinners I know its not their church but Christ.
The Lutheran church is just that the church of Luther. Christiantiy got along without it for 1500 years and those outside of the Lutheran church do fine without it.
For those reading this… it simply isn’t true. The writing in question by Luther is “The Jews and their Lies” – if you do a search online I am sure that there is a PDF file that one can download and print. Read it for yourselves so that you understand what is being said.

Anyways, was this a horrible piece of work that Luther should not have written – absolutely, but it is not what people are making it out to be…

First off the work is being confused with NAZI Germany. Luther was not anti-Semitic but anti Jewish religion. He felt that people we being lead to hell by the leaders of the Jewish faith. In his work he constantly refers to the followers of the Jewish leaders as poor people being led astray.

He called for the burning down of Synagogues and having them pounded out of existence. He stated that Rabbis that refuse to stop teaching Judaism to loose limb and life, but those are the only people that he states should be killed. Once gain though he was anti-Jewish religion and not anti-Jewish people. If they ceased to preach Judaism then all was well and he even went so far as to say that those that converted should receive a monetary reward.

He did not speak of concentration camps. The closest thing to this is that he spoke of the fact that Jewish should not receive protection when traveling so that they may stay at home and not preach their ways. He also stated that they should be given hoes, pitchforks, and the like so that they may work like the peasants instead of – in his words, “sitting around eating and farting.”

It was his view that the persecution that one receives in order for them to come to Christianity would be far better than what one would receive in Hell – once again look at the Catholic History – he didn’t seem to be alone in this belief and practice.
 
i personally believe that Luther was the pawn (along with others) used by the prince of darkness to try and tear the church apart. I guess you could say he succeeded in lots of different ways… but who knows, maybe one day we will all be united again… lets pray for that… 👍
 
space ghost:
i personally believe that Luther was the pawn (along with others) used by the prince of darkness to try and tear the church apart. I guess you could say he succeeded in lots of different ways… but who knows, maybe one day we will all be united again… lets pray for that… 👍
I will pray for that also.
 
One of the first things we hear from Protestants is the indulgence issue. Many don’t realize that Pope Julius II authorized the establishment for gifts to the Vatican for building the new St. Peter’s Basilica. Instead of doing normal penance such as prayers or good works, they could offer a gift of money to reconcile their sins. The Bishops in various European countries along with the Rulers found a way to make money for themselves and this eventually turned into the greed that we read about from this era.
 
I cannot help but notice when reading any biography on Luther was how his alcoholic father used to beat him during his formative years. This is very analogous to both Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin, particularly Stalin, who were severely beaten as kids by an alcoholic father (so was John Wayne Gacey and Ted Bundy). I say particularly Stalin because he was placed in a seminary by his mother. Luther alledgedly ran to a seminary to escape his father and an abusive home.

While Stalin left the seminary - Luther stayed, and I cannot believe either one were serious about the teachings based on their future conduct.

But all this is speculation on behalf of Luther’s biographers, but I find nothing worth emulating from the outcome of Martin Luther’s heresy.
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Maccabees:
Considering the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and other church would have to be founded by a person of such standing Luther from all objective accounts had personaolity disorders and was an anti-semite who endorsed types of concentration camps and flat out murder of Jews I think he really falls short of having the righteousness to find his very own religion he is not christ, heck he’s not Buddha, Gandhi or Saint Francis either.
Sure many catholics fall short to but we are not following a religion founded by a fallen catholic but Christ. Luther was just another fallen catholic and you are choosing to follow a relgiion founded by a man and one that wasn’t even as good as Gandhi or Buddha.
Sorry I follow the church that Christ founded not Luther despite the flaws of certain sinners I know its not their church but Christ.
The Lutheran church is just that the church of Luther. Christiantiy got along without it for 1500 years and those outside of the Lutheran church do fine without it.
 
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Shibboleth:
For those reading this… it simply isn’t true. The writing in question by Luther is “The Jews and their Lies” – if you do a search online I am sure that there is a PDF file that one can download and print. Read it for yourselves so that you understand what is being said.

Anyways, was this a horrible piece of work that Luther should not have written – absolutely, but it is not what people are making it out to be…

First off the work is being confused with NAZI Germany. Luther was not anti-Semitic but anti Jewish religion. He felt that people we being lead to hell by the leaders of the Jewish faith. In his work he constantly refers to the followers of the Jewish leaders as poor people being led astray.

He called for the burning down of Synagogues and having them pounded out of existence. He stated that Rabbis that refuse to stop teaching Judaism to loose limb and life, but those are the only people that he states should be killed. Once gain though he was anti-Jewish religion and not anti-Jewish people. If they ceased to preach Judaism then all was well and he even went so far as to say that those that converted should receive a monetary reward.

He did not speak of concentration camps. The closest thing to this is that he spoke of the fact that Jewish should not receive protection when traveling so that they may stay at home and not preach their ways. He also stated that they should be given hoes, pitchforks, and the like so that they may work like the peasants instead of – in his words, “sitting around eating and farting.”

It was his view that the persecution that one receives in order for them to come to Christianity would be far better than what one would receive in Hell – once again look at the Catholic History – he didn’t seem to be alone in this belief and practice.
In the words of Luther Here I stand I can do no other.
Look people read and judge the article for yourself. I did not say he spoke of concentration camps I said he endorsed types (conditions similar to) concentration camps.
Luther needs no enemies his evil speaks for itself read his anti-semitism. His work was quoted by Hitler for crying out loud it was a rallying cry for the Nazis.
 
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Maccabees:
In the words of Luther Here I stand I can do no other.
Look people read and judge the article for yourself. I did not say he spoke of concentration camps I said he endorsed types (conditions similar to) concentration camps.
Luther needs no enemies his evil speaks for itself read his anti-semitism. His work was quoted by Hitler for crying out loud it was a rallying cry for the Nazis.
First off, as far as we can tell, Luther never said, “Here I stand I can do no other” and he definitely didn’t say it in the council in which it is attributed.

The concentration camps statement is hogwash, read through the writing by Luther. I am not hiding anything. The acts of violence and retribution, which once again are not acceptable, were directed towards the teaching Rabbis and the wealthy Jewish that were charging illicit and exorbitant interest on loans.

The statements about comparing Luther to the NAZI’s are ridiculous. Luther would have condemned the acts of the NAZI’s just as he condemned the acts of the peasants and the respective counter reaction of the German Princes.

You do realize that the NAZI’s also used the The Encyclical A Quo Primum by Pope Benedict XIV.

If you haven’t read it please do, it also talks about the actions of another Monk that remained Catholic and what his behavior was towards the Jewish, and the decratals of other Popes in relation.
 
Check out the other threads on this forum dealing with the heritic Luther. Lots of information has been given.
 
What Luther was trying to do back then was not bad. I don’t think we Catholics need to slam him into the ground saying he was awful, terrible, mentally disturbed, abused by his father, etc., etc., or anywhere near on the same grounds as Hitler. Luther was NOT an evil person. He simply saw the negatives about the RCC back then, i.e., indulgences, etc., etc., and sought to change it, purify it, and make people aware that you can’t buy your way into heaven… Unfortunately, others got carried away, in further rebellion, and hence the Protestant Reformation. Can’t we just see Luther himself for who and what he was???
 
Hello Sparkle:

Only God knows what Luther “was trying to do.” We can only judge what he did, we can’t know his motives.

That said, we have to dsay that much of what he did was vile, awful, incredible. Go look at Dave Armstrong’s website: I challenge you to take a look at the real Luther. There is an awful lot of stuff, as Luther was a prodigious writer, and there is much that has not been published much if at all. This is what makes Luther such a complex and fascinating character.

Luther was a driven, sensual, tortured man. One only has to look at his dismal view of human nature–basically his own nature–to see the reasons for his theology. He is a mass of contradictions, and this comes out in his many contradictory positions, Dave Armstrong’s site compares some of these, which are so contradictory that one sees why he was called by some a liar. He was capable of the vilest, most intemperate, insulting and scatological language that one could ever want to find. He said even blasphemous things about Christ. What conclusion do I draw from all this? I think he was sometimes nuts. If I had to guess, based on what I’ve read, I’d call him a neurotic manic-depressive/bipolar personality wracked by self-hatred and his vision of an angry God.

Luther’s personality was the spark that lit the whole Reformation. Other causes were pernicious errors in philosophy and a decline in the quality of philosophical teaching, conciliarism in the Church and the hersies it engendered, the greed of the princes, the low state of religion and the neuroses caused by the bubonic plague that had devastated Europe in the previous generation, universal resentment over taxes, the emerging nationalism of the time, and a dozen other things. Corruption in the Church, and still less any doctrinal errors, were only the excuses or occasions for the conflagration that Luther lit, not the causes of it.

The Church never taught that anyone could buy his way into heaven, never taught that one could buy a soul out of purgatory (even if Tetzel really did preach, as the Protestants accused him of doing, that “as soon as the coin in the coffer rings, then a soul from purgatory springs”), never taught that we work our own way into heaven. Had the Protestants been interested only in correcting the abuses, why did they throw out so many Catholic doctrines?

No, your claim that Luther was a good guy only fighting to correct abuses and that only others did the dirty work just won’t wash: like the current and former movies made on Luther it is sanitized hagiography for the masses, not history. Let us rather see Luther for what he was, a heretic and a heresiarch. BTW, none other than Wm. Schirer, the author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, observes that it was Martin Luther that made Adolph Hitler’s rise in Germany possible. Was he an “evil person”? Only God knows. What we know is that he did some pretty bad things.

Regards,
Joannes
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sparkle:
What Luther was trying to do back then was not bad. I don’t think we Catholics need to slam him into the ground saying he was awful, terrible, mentally disturbed, abused by his father, etc., etc., or anywhere near on the same grounds as Hitler. Luther was NOT an evil person. He simply saw the negatives about the RCC back then, i.e., indulgences, etc., etc., and sought to change it, purify it, and make people aware that you can’t buy your way into heaven… Unfortunately, others got carried away, in further rebellion, and hence the Protestant Reformation. Can’t we just see Luther himself for who and what he was???
 
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Joannes:
Hello Sparkle:

Only God knows what Luther “was trying to do.” We can only judge what he did, we can’t know his motives.

That said, we have to dsay that much of what he did was vile, awful, incredible. Go look at Dave Armstrong’s website: I challenge you to take a look at the real Luther. There is an awful lot of stuff, as Luther was a prodigious writer, and there is much that has not been published much if at all. This is what makes Luther such a complex and fascinating character.

Luther was a driven, sensual, tortured man. One only has to look at his dismal view of human nature–basically his own nature–to see the reasons for his theology. He is a mass of contradictions, and this comes out in his many contradictory positions, Dave Armstrong’s site compares some of these, which are so contradictory that one sees why he was called by some a liar. He was capable of the vilest, most intemperate, insulting and scatological language that one could ever want to find. He said even blasphemous things about Christ. What conclusion do I draw from all this? I think he was sometimes nuts. If I had to guess, based on what I’ve read, I’d call him a neurotic manic-depressive/bipolar personality wracked by self-hatred and his vision of an angry God.

Luther’s personality was the spark that lit the whole Reformation. Other causes were pernicious errors in philosophy and a decline in the quality of philosophical teaching, conciliarism in the Church and the hersies it engendered, the greed of the princes, the low state of religion and the neuroses caused by the bubonic plague that had devastated Europe in the previous generation, universal resentment over taxes, the emerging nationalism of the time, and a dozen other things. Corruption in the Church, and still less any doctrinal errors, were only the excuses or occasions for the conflagration that Luther lit, not the causes of it.

The Church never taught that anyone could buy his way into heaven, never taught that one could buy a soul out of purgatory (even if Tetzel really did preach, as the Protestants accused him of doing, that “as soon as the coin in the coffer rings, then a soul from purgatory springs”), never taught that we work our own way into heaven. Had the Protestants been interested only in correcting the abuses, why did they throw out so many Catholic doctrines?

No, your claim that Luther was a good guy only fighting to correct abuses and that only others did the dirty work just won’t wash: like the current and former movies made on Luther it is sanitized hagiography for the masses, not history. Let us rather see Luther for what he was, a heretic and a heresiarch. BTW, none other than Wm. Schirer, the author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, observes that it was Martin Luther that made Adolph Hitler’s rise in Germany possible. Was he an “evil person”? Only God knows. What we know is that he did some pretty bad things.

Regards,
Joannes
It seems that Luther’s tongue is not the only one that is vile.
 
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
 
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Shibboleth:
It seems that Luther’s tongue is not the only one that is vile.
If truth is vile, so be it. Joannes spoke the truth and nothing but the truth about Luther.

JMJ Jay
 
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