Martin Luther Question

[Joannes]

Hello YuRa:

Yes, I claim to be no more than the “common day Catholic”, as you put it.

How dare you start flinging around that same old ****, that same old Protestant prejudice and propaganda that even you don’t understand!

DO YOUR HOMEWORK. KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT, FOR GOD’S SAKE! I challenge you to prove that we Catholics rely on our own righteousness. What a stupid a thing to say!. PROVE IT! Read the authoritative teachings of the popes or of the Council of Trent: they say clearly that we’re saved by grace. Try just a little to understand Catholic teaching, just a little. Try just a little to get out of your box, though I realize it’s easier to believe those old lies, like those ridiculous movies about Luther: they deflect one’s attention from the insupportability of your own teachings.

It is YOUR religion that is a religion of works, not ours! YOU are the ones who are saying that all one has to DO is to "ACCEPT Jesus as ‘your personal Savior’ and then MAKE your ‘altar call’. It is YOUR RELIGION that is putting all the stress on “HAVING FAITH”. All these are WORKS – it is YOUR RELIGION, not ours, that believes you are saved by what you DO. It is YOU, not us, who follow the ‘traditions of men’. We Catholics have always believed that we are saved by grace – for once, READ THE DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT, where all this is taught: stop listening to the worthless propaganda that your people keep repeating.

You fling around "so**la gratia", “solo Christo”, “sola fide”, “soli Deo gloria”. Fine, these are Catholic teaching. “Sola fide” and "sola Scriptura" are merely stupid. Try to prove them, if you dare

And why all this? YOU are threatened by what I said, because Y0U can’t bear to hear someone talk bad about your sanitized founder. Well, wake up and smell the coffee: what I said about Luther is just common knowledge: he was nuts. You say I’m nasty? Well, you attacked Jesus’ Church, so you get a come-uppance – right between the eyes!

Regards,
Joannes

YuRa:

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

 

[Shibboleth]

Katholikos:

If truth is vile, so be it. Joannes spoke the truth and nothing but the truth about Luther.

JMJ Jay

It doesn’t seem that the Holy See shares your view of Luther.

 

[Shibboleth]

Read the part on Luther

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea1.asp

 

[Joannes]

Hello Shibboleth and all:

I see by your last two posts that you are attempting to foreclose the discussion on the the historical Martin Luther. You are even trying to argue *from authority *against a factual case. May I submit that this argument of yours from authority is the weakest of all possible arguments, since a factual case must be argued rather from facts ?

Your recommended link speaks against using Luther as an argument against Protestantism. WelI, I did not make my comments on Martin Luther for that reason: I made them rather in response to the subject of this thread, which is precisely Martin Luther, which subject, after all, I did not propose, and in which thread I was only one of many participants. Would you have had me waive the entire subject of the discussion just because a candid response required saying some tough things about the real man?

In any case I don’t have to knock Martin Luther in order to discuss Protestantism, as it falls on its own merits. Its founder Martin Luther is just a side-show.

Regards,
Joannes

 

[CommonMan]

Most who complain about Dr. Luther get their information from google searches. He is a signifigant historical fugure, there is ample information available about him, yet even Lutherans don’t spend much time learning about him.

Lutheran Forums

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth:

Read the part on Luther

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea1.asp

I read all of the article. I think the author was wrong in much of what he wrote, and consequently I’m not likely to take his advice. But that’s another subject. The article does not deal with the historical Luther, and therefore is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

The facts about Luther cannot be erased, but they can be – and are – whitewashed or omitted entirely by Protestants and others. Luther is presented as the “Great Reformer” – the heroic figure – kicking the shins of the evil, monolithic Catholic Church and then riding off into the sunset – our hero!

I want to see a film or hear a sermon about Luther that acknowledges that the man who gave us the doctrine of Sola Scriptura also removed 11 books from the canon of the Bible – and that Sola Fide was unheard of before it sprang full blown into the mind of Luther in the 16th century. These facts are never mentioned. Nor is Luther’s approval of the bigamy of Philip of Hesse. Luther even dispatched Melanchthon as his personal representative to witness the alleged wedding, but the mother of bride #2 spilled the beans, exposing Luther to a well-deserved public scandal.

As a Protestant, I was unaware that Luther encouraged polygamy by his statement that he could find no scriptural basis for forbidding it. I was never told about his vile diatribes against the participants of the Peasant Revolt, against the Anabaptists, and against the Jews. I didn’t know his hatred of the Jews made him the hero and role model for the Nazi’s.

As a Baptist, I was taught the standard Protestant propaganda about Luther as the heroic “Great Reformer.” I could have gone though life not knowing the truth about Luther, had I not stumbled across a reference to the bigamy incident and started examining the man’s history for myself.

Protestants should stop propagating the bull-oney about Luther and tell the truth about what kind of man he really was.

And Luther set himself against the doctrines of Christ’s Church. Thus he gave us Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. The theory that he wanted only to reform the Church is more Protestant bull-oney.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth:

It doesn’t seem that the Holy See shares your view of Luther.

Since Luther labeled the Catholic Church “the Whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the antichrist,” epithets that are still hurled against the Church by her enemies – and made a humpty dumpty that can’t be put together again out of Christianity – its unlikely that the Church founded by Christ will say, “Thanks, Luther, we needed that.”

Luther in no way reformed the Church – which is the New Israel, the Body of Christ, His Bride, the household (the very dwelling place) of God, the pillar and foundation of truth – nor did he even attempt to reform it. Rather, he shattered it. Christ’s body bleeds from the wounds inflicted upon it by Luther to this very day.

Lord, have mercy!

The Church reformed herself, with the help of many saints.

JMJ Jay

 

[Malachi4U]

Katholikos:

…Luther in no way reformed the Church – which is the New Israel, the Body of Christ, His Bride, the household (the very dwelling place) of God, the pillar and foundation of truth – nor did he even attempt to reform it. Rather, he shattered it. Christ’s body bleeds from the wounds inflicted upon it by Luther to this very day…

Just a note, Luther did not shatter Christs body, His Catholic Church. Luther missguided many schismatics who where weak in faith and would rather follow false teachers.

The Faithfull who remained loyal to Christ and His Church made the Church stronger by getting rid of an infection. Luthers ideas had no place in Christianity and therefor he had to be given the boot.

The Catholic Church continues to grow and become stronger.

We need to pray for Luther and all those he led astray.

Go in Gods peace,

PS, perhaps I was a bit too picky over your choice of words in that post?

 

[Katholikos]

Malachi4U:

Just a note, Luther did not shatter Christs body, His Catholic Church. Luther missguided many schismatics who where weak in faith and would rather follow false teachers.

The Faithfull who remained loyal to Christ and His Church made the Church stronger by getting rid of an infection. Luthers ideas had no place in Christianity and therefor he had to be given the boot.

The Catholic Church continues to grow and become stronger.

We need to pray for Luther and all those he led astray.

Go in Gods peace,

PS, perhaps I was a bit too picky over your choice of words in that post?

You have a peculiar view of history which historians do not share, but you’re entitled to it. Luther is known to Protestants as the “Great Reformer” and the “Father of Protestantism.” But he is the great deformer and the father of chaos.

 

[Malachi4U]

Katholikos:

You have a peculiar view of history which historians do not share…

Protestant or Catholic historians? Could you give some references too please?

 

[Kevan]

Katholikos:

You have a peculiar view of history which historians do not share,

In fact, historians consider him to be one of the three or four most influential men in history. But you’d never guess why by reading Catholic diatribes against him. Those critics make him sound like a two-bit jerk.

His works are readily available in libraries. Whenever I pull a volume off the shelf and open it at random, I am entranced before I’ve read fully half a page. This is true even when I disagree with what he’s saying, which is often.

Melancthon’s “Oration Over Luther” (funeral sermon) is online somewhere. Melancthon spoke publicly saying, essentially, “You knew him and watched him for all these years.” It’s hard to lie and get away with it in such a setting. Despite his errors, the real Luther had a good testimony among those who were in a position to judge.