Martin Luther supported polygamy...

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I’m sure this comes as a surprise to most Catholics, maybe even the pope himself.

I find it strange how Protestants will defend Luther to the death on “faith” issues, but ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to his “morals” teachings, especially when it impacts their own lives.
Martin is the kind of guy you who want to have a beer with after work. Not so other religious reformers. John Calvin, no way. John Wesley, no way again. Lutheran Bishop Sofie Peterson of Greenland - don’t think so. She is made at us. Most of them take themselves too seriously. Got to have some La Dolce Vita.

Catholics would like to have a beer with other Catholics. We don’t want any of that ‘in vino est veritas’ thing taking over with ‘friends’ from other denominations.

peace
 
Of course, there are more quotes; I am sure you can dig a few more out of the eternal woodwork of mysterious documents that “prove” your supposed case against Luther. Actually; I find this whole thing quite hilarious - the way some of you struggle so to discredit Luther. I find it interesting that you concentrate heavily on his character, and other psychological aspects. But, ultimately, the quotes you supply are only that; it is not demonstrated by the CE or other sources, the correct context of said quotes; and it still is not demonstrated to the public how we can easily verify the quotes as true or false; and as to what their context is.

Your attacks on Luther, perhaps have a few minor elements of truth to it, yet, it is hard to see this as a problem that the Catholic Church has with Luther, who is one man. It looks more like an attack on Protestants in general, using one man as the scape-goat for all your allegations.

Luther wasn’t perfect, and he never claimed to be. If, what you said was even half true; I would imagine that it was simply a case of him expressing something that he did not view as “doctrine” but as a private thought or practice, not necessarily inspired. Catholics do this all the time when some poor unsuspecting Protestant tries to ask about some of the Popes and the disgusting heinous things they have done in the past; much worse than what Luther ever did. Catholics dismiss it away by saying: “Oh; it isn’t official teaching” or “it is only private revelation and not needed for salvation;” or “it was civil powers that did that;” yet, all you can do to poor Luther who is dead anyway is to demonize him with half-quotes and misquotes??

If you were just asking questions about Luther; it would be different, but you all make some pretty heavy insinuations. All I say is “Help Yourself.” You haven’t proven anything; yet. :confused:
That’s true. We have nothing else to do be make fun of Martin Luther, and tell all sorts of nasty lies about him.

Of course, if we quote a source to you, a reputable source like C.E. you wouldn’t trust it. How sad. We might as well ignore you and your ‘questions’ here on this site, but that wouldn’t be charitable.

What he did wasn’t funny, but to try to destroy the one, true Church, the Roman Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ.

If you read up on Fr. Martin you realize what a bafoon he really is: foul-mouthed, bizarre, anti - women, anti- Jew, anti - Catholic.
What he had to say about us is not printable on this site.

We are expected to forgive him for his foibles, and we do, and we pray for him that God show him mercy. We pray for him, and he would tell you he didn’t pray for the dead, so if the shoe were on the other foot, we wouldn’t get a whimper out of him on our behalf.

God have mercy on the soul of Martin Luther.

peace
 
That’s true. We have nothing else to do be make fun of Martin Luther, and tell all sorts of nasty lies about him.

Of course, if we quote a source to you, a reputable source like C.E. you wouldn’t trust it. How sad. We might as well ignore you and your ‘questions’ here on this site, but that wouldn’t be charitable.

What he did wasn’t funny, but to try to destroy the one, true Church, the Roman Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ.

If you read up on Fr. Martin you realize what a bafoon he really is: foul-mouthed, bizarre, anti - women, anti- Jew, anti - Catholic.
What he had to say about us is not printable on this site.

We are expected to forgive him for his foibles, and we do, and we pray for him that God show him mercy. We pray for him, and he would tell you he didn’t pray for the dead, so if the shoe were on the other foot, we wouldn’t get a whimper out of him on our behalf.

God have mercy on the soul of Martin Luther.

peace
“Reliable” or not, I have read and downloaded all the articles I could find from CE about Luther, and it is not even my opinion; but as I scoured these articles I did find many claims were made; thereby constituting the “many quotes” that some refer to as “proving” the case against Luther, I found a serious lack of scholarly documentation which would allow the public to easily verify the many claims made. So to me, the CE, in it’s responses to Luther, or about him are just long lists of “cherry-picked” claims, with no proof to back them up.

And by the way; Luther would certainly have prayed for EVERY Catholic, while they were alive.
 
Catholics just don’t get it.

Protestants don’t put Luther on a pedestal. He was a man who was prone to the same weaknesses as everyone.

All the Church Fathers who are held in high esteem by Catholics said things that Catholics blow off with a “That was just his personal opinion. It is not the infallible teaching of the Church.”

In the case of Luther’s letter:
…Luther & his colleagues spent 80% of the letter discouraging the taking of more than one wife -giving both religious and secular reasoning. Then making acknowledging that the prince had already made up his mind, gave a very narrow dispensation.

Other church fathers have also acknowledged such dispensations could be considered valid.

Protestants don’t follow Luther or strive to be Luther-like. We follow Jesus and strive to be Christ-like.
 
Catholics just don’t get it.

Protestants don’t put Luther on a pedestal. He was a man who was prone to the same weaknesses as everyone.

All the Church Fathers who are held in high esteem by Catholics said things that Catholics blow off with a “That was just his personal opinion. It is not the infallible teaching of the Church.”

In the case of Luther’s letter:
…Luther & his colleagues spent 80% of the letter discouraging the taking of more than one wife -giving both religious and secular reasoning. Then making acknowledging that the prince had already made up his mind, gave a very narrow dispensation.

Other church fathers have also acknowledged such dispensations could be considered valid.

Protestants don’t follow Luther or strive to be Luther-like. We follow Jesus and strive to be Christ-like.
Welcome back, Ginger, we missed you.

And the Catholic Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ, always exhorted Christians to follow and imitate Jesus. Thomas a Kempis wrote a book, The Imitation of Christ.

We have saint after saint, martyr after martyr who led a sacrificial life, imitating Jesus Christ.

Luther supported polygamy - well, at least we got that concession out of you.

Luther, in his wake, led to the destruction of Christianity. How many Christian sects have arisen since his time, 12,000, 13000. All of them are right and true? Is any of them right and true?

Luther destroyed the Sacramental system of Christ’s church. He tried to keep the Eucharist, and the Real Presence. And although Martin maintained a semblance of the Eucharist, his followers set out to destroy it. Luther, at the end of his life, was depressed about how vain and sinful men had become. Men lost their souls because of him; he did not draw them to God.

In Luther’s religion, and it was his religion, not the religion founded by Christ, God had not the power to wash our sins away - just cover them over. Martin has no understanding of grace, and how it works within a man’s soul. Luther leaves us still sinners, though we are justified. How is that contradiction? He teaches all manner of lies about the Church, that we taught that men by good works solely buy their way into heaven. It constantly lied and misrepresented what the Church teaches.

Luther is not on a pedestral. How can you put such a sick, blasphemous, foul-mouthed, hateful, spiteful individual on a pedestal?

We still don’t know any Church Fathers who deemed polygamy acceptable. Luther never quoted a Father as allowing polygamy. It was his own notion, and for political reasons.

I don’t know ‘blowing off’ anything the Fathers or Doctors of the Church have taught. They may not have been totally infallible, but they were good, learned and saintly men and women. Just as the army of saints (Confessors, Virgins, Martyrs) whom we vernerate every day, and try to imitate them in their love and zeal for our Saviour.

Luther is your possession; keep him. We learn nothing from him, except what pride, ambition, and vain-glory will do to a man.

peace
 
“Reliable” or not, I have read and downloaded all the articles I could find from CE about Luther, and it is not even my opinion; but as I scoured these articles I did find many claims were made; thereby constituting the “many quotes” that some refer to as “proving” the case against Luther, I found a serious lack of scholarly documentation which would allow the public to easily verify the many claims made. So to me, the CE, in it’s responses to Luther, or about him are just long lists of “cherry-picked” claims, with no proof to back them up.

And by the way; Luther would certainly have prayed for EVERY Catholic, while they were alive.
I don’t know if any enclyclopedia provides footnotes and references to the facts it places in an article.

If they did provide these ‘proofs’, would you still believe them, and accept them? I doubt that.

What you can do, if you were a serious student of Luteranism, is to take the ‘troubling’ facts, and research them yourself. If you c.e.'s proofs, come up with your own to the contrary. Make c.e. a liar, if you will.

To me, it is a professional journal, and wouldn’t stand for long if it only printed lies. This is not a wiki look-a-like.

As for Luther praying for us? His whole life was spent cursing and blaspheming the Pope, whom he called the Anti-Christ, papists, cardinals, monks, and assorted believers in the true faith.
The Pope and Satan were one and the same. He was purely vulgar, and even obscene when it came to the Church of Jesus Christ.

Martin would pray for us? You got to be kidding! You have read very little Luther.

peace
 
Luther Said: Polygamy Is Permissible
“I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.” (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)

It seems Martin Luther supported polygamy or at least he was not against it. I think that he would have been in agreement with the lds prophet Joseph Smith and with plural marriage.

Strange, but I have never heard this from a Luthern’s mouth that Martin Luther supported polygamy.

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/truth_about_martin_luther.htm
I noticed that you left this part out in that section…

‘Sola scriptura’ has its consequences.
 
Martin Luther opened the Gates of Hell against Christ’s Church. Every single anti-catholic has a demon riding upon his shoulders in a vain attempt to prevail against the Church.
 
There are really two issues here.

In early days women often died in childbirth so men had several women around to fill the gap. The Church eventually defined when it was okay to have sex. "One man, one woman within marriage. This also covers the question of homosexuality. This rule did not exist in the very early Church .

The second issue is the Mormon bastardization of the concept of the Kingdom of God, which not the same idea as in Christianity. The reason for polygamy is to populate this ersatz Kingdom. So the reason for polygamy in Mormonism is rooted in an extreme heresy as well as being immoral by Christian standards. Luther was not thinking of the Mormon notion of the Kingdom of God and how to populate it… Plus, Luther was confused about many things, so this is just one more of his errors to add to the list.
 
Joey re: sola Scripture consequences

Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away:

For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife:… they are no more two, but one flesh. therefore, what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Mat 19:5,6)

Can you find one verse where God specifically commands anyone to take more than one wife?

God sometimes puts limits on our bad behavior, but that doesn’t mean that He approves of it.

Remember what Jesus said about divorce?

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
 
There are really two issues here.

In early days women often died in childbirth so men had several women around to fill the gap. The Church eventually defined when it was okay to have sex. "One man, one woman within marriage. This also covers the question of homosexuality. This rule did not exist in the very early Church .

The second issue is the Mormon bastardization of the concept of the Kingdom of God, which not the same idea as in Christianity. The reason for polygamy is to populate this ersatz Kingdom. So the reason for polygamy in Mormonism is rooted in an extreme heresy as well as being immoral by Christian standards. Luther was not thinking of the Mormon notion of the Kingdom of God and how to populate it… Plus, Luther was confused about many things, so this is just one more of his errors to add to the list.
True this. Luther’s thoughts and ideas were based on what he believed was right, or wrong, theologically speaking. He made errors based on misunderstanding scripture or previous theology.

From what I can see, he said he supported polygamy based on the way he interpreted scripture. The theological information he had. And, as has been pointed out he had high political and personal motivation to tell a person with a great deal of power that it was ok for him to marry a second time.

Joseph Smith on the other hand, was marrying extra wives himself, secretly. When the political climate started to heat under him, he claimed God revealed to him that polygamy was a higher principle of heaven. In addition, that one could only reach the highest kingdom in heaven by practicing polygamy. It was only later that mormon leaders tried to defend polygamy, via scripture, and they COULD NOT. Not on Bible alone. They had to add their own scriptures, that coincidently were “revealed” to Joseph Smith. The person who needed the most justification for something that he was already practicing and publicly being called out as an adulterer.

Luther never made such claims as this. He was only answering the question, is polygamy justified, Biblically speaking. Joseph Smith went far beyond that question.
 
Can you find one verse where God specifically commands anyone to take more than one wife?

.
Well, then, Ginger, if Martin Luther could not find a verse in scripture to take more than one wife, what was his authority to okay polygamy.

He saw himself above Scripture.

peace
 
Martin Luther opened the Gates of Hell against Christ’s Church. Every single anti-catholic has a demon riding upon his shoulders in a vain attempt to prevail against the Church.
Picturesque for sure. Anti-Catholics may not be riding on Satan’s shoulders, but they sure don’t like us much, as is evident from the Lutheran defense on this thread. We have heard of Luther’s defense, which I would expect. But when it gets down to calling us liars, and as misrepresenting the truth, I think Satan has a hand in that.

When a person denies the truth that is staring him (or her) in the face, the devil is at work.

peace
 
Quote mgrfin: “But when it gets down to calling us liars, and as misrepresenting the truth, I think Satan has a hand in that. When a person denies the truth that is staring him (or her) in the face, the devil is at work.”

Who had a hand in your calling me a liar? Granted, you thought better of it and edited your post. At least you had that much decency.

But how charitable do you think Catholics appear when patting each other on the back for saying, “Every single anti-catholic has a demon riding upon his shoulders …”

Just asking…

BTW, I have never “admitted” Luther promoted polygamy. I have maintained that he probably made the quote referenced in this thread, but that a snippet here and there is not proof of anything.

Meanwhile, you deny that many Church Fathers have also made comments contrary to good Christian living.

Furthermore, Catholics often misrepresent Luther’s words. I don’t think they are intentionally lying. I think they are just careless because of what they want to believe as opposed to seeking the truth.
 
Quote mgrfin: “But when it gets down to calling us liars, and as misrepresenting the truth, I think Satan has a hand in that. When a person denies the truth that is staring him (or her) in the face, the devil is at work.”

Who had a hand in your calling me a liar? Granted, you thought better of it and edited your post. At least you had that much decency.

But how charitable do you think Catholics appear when patting each other on the back for saying, “Every single anti-catholic has a demon riding upon his shoulders …”

Just asking…

BTW, I have never “admitted” Luther promoted polygamy. I have maintained that he probably made the quote referenced in this thread, but that a snippet here and there is not proof of anything.

Meanwhile, you deny that many Church Fathers have also made comments contrary to good Christian living.

Furthermore, Catholics often misrepresent Luther’s words. I don’t think they are intentionally lying. I think they are just careless because of what they want to believe as opposed to seeking the truth.
On the contrary, it was Luther who misunderstood, misquoted, and misjudged us. Read what he had to say about ‘good works’.

I deny that many Church Father have also made comments contrary to good Christian living. You would like to attack Gregory the Great, Augustine, Justin, Jerome, Chrysostom, Basil, Ambrose, Aquinas, Atanasius, Bonaventure, Leo the Great, Hilary, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephrem, Bellarmine, Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Catherine of Siena. Go ahead. These great saints and Doctors of the Church have led us to sanctity and holiness, and lived the life of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, show us your Lutheran doctors, sainted men and women, who benefitted from the teaching of Luther.

As for the analogy of the ‘devil riding on shoulders’, that was Luther’s image:
“Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on
those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq.,

I think we are at the point where the proofs have been so great, we should think of the doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding 'outside the Church there is no salvation…" Too many are unreasonably resisting Christ’s words and Christ’s Church.

peace
 
Quote mgrfin: “show us your Lutheran doctors, sainted men and women, who benefitted from the teaching of Luther.”

Uh…I’m not Lutheran. I was raised Catholic. So I really can’t come at this from the point of view.

Also, I didn’t know Luther had been canonized. I have never heard him referred to as “Saint”.
 
QUOTE]

Yeah, I see him referred to as “Saint Martin Luther”. Of course, that site is the same one that declares that Luther discovered the bible. Huh?

I kind of wonder what the monks were singing each day: The Divine Office: Matins, Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers and Compline, all with massive readings from the Old and New Testament. Plus, readings in the daily celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass.

More lies from Lutherans.

peace
 
Quote mgrfin: “You would like to attack Gregory the Great, Augustine, Justin, Jerome, Chrysostom, Basil, Ambrose, Aquinas, Atanasius, Bonaventure, Leo the Great, Hilary, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephrem, Bellarmine, Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Catherine of Siena. Go ahead. These great saints and Doctors of the Church have led us to sanctity and holiness, and lived the life of Jesus Christ.”

First, I have not attacked anyone. The only Saint I even mentioned was Augustine in response to your post, # 77
“Luther should have condemned polygamy. Therefore he supported it.”

I asked you to reference a quote from Augustine condemning polygamy. You are the one who set the criteria. I am still waiting for the quote.

Second, It is Christ Jesus who leads us to sanctity and holiness.

Third, Since you have brought up other doctors, I will ask why the criteria you set for Luther does not apply to them 🤷
To Church Fathers such as Chrysostom, Origen and many others who contradict Catholic dogma, you give a pass.
 
Meanwhile, you deny that many Church Fathers have also made comments contrary to good Christian living.

QUOTE]

Right, Ginger. Youj accuse the Church Fathers. Could you quote some of their indecency, just so we get a feel for it?

peace
 
How long do you intend to avoid answering the question?

I think you are long over-due. You ask one question after another in attempt to avoid answering anything yourself.

After you answer, then I will respond to your new question.

I’m waiting…
 
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