Martin Luther supported polygamy...

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So let it be Ginger. I am not afraid to live and die by my own sword and your remarks about Catholics being judgemental is a laugh because we seem to get protestants coming here all the time accusing us of being devil worshippers and cultists and all manner of insults. Your sola scriptura beliefs are what are wielded against Catholics stating that we make up rules and false church doctrines when in reality your faiths are incomplete because you do not embrace the entirety and truth of the Bible which proves itself not to be the only tool for teaching and knowing God.
I don’t hate you Ginger, I don’t even know you from eve, but I don’t have to go along with what you say, because you expound your beliefs from the mouth of Luther the Heretic, as being gospel truths.
Dear Fiery,

First let me say you couldn’t have picked a better handle. It suits you well.

I did not try to defame your queen. I was speaking (mostly) with mgrfin and pointing out that some church fathers have said things that disagree with Catholic dogma.

Now that I have explained, perhaps you should turn your anger toward those who, in your opinion, “defamed” the Virgin Mary’s character.

As for an apology, I appreciate Myfavorite martian’s concern for civility in this thread.

But, I myself would rarely ask for an apology from a Catholic. AND, I would never expect to get one. It has been my experience that Catholics feel justified for anything they say or do concerning protestants.

I will leave you with just one thought:

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 **By this shall all men shall know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. **

Are you a disciple of Jesus? "Cause, I’m not feeling the love. :nope:
 
Dear fiery,

What you responded to was a reference to Church Fathers teaching. Not necessarily my belief.

How is it that I am to blame for what they said?

The point is that human beings can make mistakes. If Catholics are willing to consider what their heroes of the faith have said as a whole, and over-look certain remarks against dogma,

Why is that same consideration not extended to those who are not members of the Catholic Church?

BTW, I never studied Luther. I was raised Catholic.
 
I’ve read these people and don’t get from it what you see, and I never said you were a luther disciple but you sure seem to agree with him or attempt to make arguements in his favor. Anybody can make a mistake, but I rather think people are not understanding the language or are reading a mistranslation.
Dear fiery,

What you responded to was a reference to Church Fathers teaching. Not necessarily my belief.

How is it that I am to blame for what they said?

The point is that human beings can make mistakes. If Catholics are willing to consider what their heroes of the faith have said as a whole, and over-look certain remarks against dogma,

Why is that same consideration not extended to those who are not members of the Catholic Church?

BTW, I never studied Luther. I was raised Catholic.
 
Fiery,

I’ve said before in this thread that I am not trying to defend Luther.

What I am trying to convey is that we should all take care to be honest and accurate.

Too many times people read something on the internet or elsewhere and assume it is true.

I have seen many quotes from Luther taken out of context and distorted. These people are not intentionally lying, they are just being careless. No matter what you think of Luther personally, it is wrong to repeat falsehoods and/ or distort the truth - even if you think it is probably true.

If you looked back, (which you won’t) you would see that fairly early in this thread I said that I believe Luther probably said those words, but we can’t know what he actually was saying without seeing it in its full context. Also, sometimes it helps to know what led up to the comments.

Luther made a dispensation - under narrow and specific circumstances for the taking of a second wife. I BELIEVE FIRMLY THAT HE WAS WRONG.

However, in this thread, Luther’s being wrong is not enough. Some have exaggerated and added to it. More quotes that ARE indeed false have been posted to further condemn Luther.

Isn’t the truth enough?

If I witness a man robbing a bank, I should tell the truth to the best of my recollection. If I start adding exaggerations and false statements, I will lose all credibility and justice will NOT be served.

Do you understand what I am saying? I don’t really care what you think of Luther he is nothing to me. But I do care about honesty, integrity and accuracy.
 
I owe no one an apology for attempting to defame my blessed mother and Queen of Heaven, Mother of God Almighty.
Perhaps I was unclear in my post. I meant to say that I have never read anything in my Catholic Bible that even alludes to Mary having sinned or anything in any other writings by the Church doctors.
Hey, we are all human, and occasionally we misspeak. No harm, no blame.

peace
 
Fiery,

I’ve said before in this thread that I am not trying to defend Luther.

What I am trying to convey is that we should all take care to be honest and accurate.

Too many times people read something on the internet or elsewhere and assume it is true.

I have seen many quotes from Luther taken out of context and distorted. These people are not intentionally lying, they are just being careless. No matter what you think of Luther personally, it is wrong to repeat falsehoods and/ or distort the truth - even if you think it is probably true.

If you looked back, (which you won’t) you would see that fairly early in this thread I said that I believe Luther probably said those words, but we can’t know what he actually was saying without seeing it in its full context. Also, sometimes it helps to know what led up to the comments.

Luther made a dispensation - under narrow and specific circumstances for the taking of a second wife. I BELIEVE FIRMLY THAT HE WAS WRONG.

However, in this thread, Luther’s being wrong is not enough. Some have exaggerated and added to it. More quotes that ARE indeed false have been posted to further condemn Luther.

Isn’t the truth enough?

If I witness a man robbing a bank, I should tell the truth to the best of my recollection. If I start adding exaggerations and false statements, I will lose all credibility and justice will NOT be served.

Do you understand what I am saying? I don’t really care what you think of Luther he is nothing to me. But I do care about honesty, integrity and accuracy.
We care about honesty, integrity and accuracy, as well, Ginger.

You heard insinuations yesterday that because the only quote for this issue seemed to come from the Catholic Encyclopedia, as though C.E. was going to lie or falsify the facts.

That kind of insinuation about a respected journal sets some of us off (me).

And you, Ginger, I referred to as “Thomasina” because you were such a staunch disbeliever.

Attacks on the Church fathers, and looking for quotes where someone of them were a bit off in their praise of Mary also is very annoying.

So, maybe, there is blame to go around everywhere.

Mary is still the sinless Mother of God. We venerate her on this (October 11th) the Celebration of the Maternity of the BVM.

peace
 
I am left wondering if the only real source of “evidence” here against Luther is The Catholic Encyclopedia?:confused:
We gave you other citations. And what is wrong with such a respected journal as the Catholic Encyclopedia?

If it were in Britannica would you accept it?

peace
 
Two things mgrfin:
First it is nice of you to excuse fiery from apologizing. However, she didn’t intend to, anyway.

Second, I did not attach the Church Fathers. I simply pointed out that they have said things contrary to dogma.

By your reasoning, telling the truth is attacking? I did not misquote anyone, nor did I say they were bad people. I simply pointed out they did not always agree with each other.

On the other hand, I cannot say the same about Catholic treatment of Luther.

All the quote from Church Fathers I quoted can be verified thru Catholic resources.

Which is another thing. I have been accused of not giving the sources for the quotes which is false. If I even forgot to include the source I immediately supplied it when asked.

Catholic documents support what I have said about the Church Fathers, yet I have been called a liar.

Go figure 🤷
 
We gave you other citations. And what is wrong with such a respected journal as the Catholic Encyclopedia?
Respected by whom? By conservative Catholics, sure. Outside those rarefied circles, it’s not relied on as a source for anything other than traditional Catholic theology, for which it’s an excellent source. It’s not dishonest, and the authors were certainly learned, but there are a lot more up-to-date and less biased sources out there.

That being said, on this issue I think the facts are undeniable–Luther did think that bigamy might be legitimate in certain circumstances (though not as a general rule).

Edwin
 
I owe no one an apology for attempting to defame my blessed mother and Queen of Heaven, Mother of God Almighty.
Perhaps I was unclear in my post. I meant to say that I have never read anything in my Catholic Bible that even alludes to Mary having sinned or anything in any other writings by the Church doctors.
These are very weak arguments. I don’t find the quotes conclusive at all.

And as far as “Sola Scriptura”, please tell us where these Scriptures came from. They were handed down to us, century after century, by the Roman Catholic Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

One of the great lies of the Reformation was that Luther found the Bible hidden away in his Monastery. We know every monastery possessed copies of the bible, and the monks were responsible for copying them. They also read or sang the Divine Office daily, which is composed of the Psalms, and readings from the Old and New Testament. In their daily Mass, they were read in that part of the Mass (Mass of Catechumens) passages from the old and new testament.

oeace
 
Respected by whom? By conservative Catholics, sure. Outside those rarefied circles, it’s not relied on as a source for anything other than traditional Catholic theology, for which it’s an excellent source. It’s not dishonest, and the authors were certainly learned, but there are a lot more up-to-date and less biased sources out there.

That being said, on this issue I think the facts are undeniable–Luther did think that bigamy might be legitimate in certain circumstances (though not as a general rule).

Edwin
And what other (up-to-date) source for this situation is there?

If it is not dishonest, why is it biased?

Rarefied circles? I think Lutheran, Evangelical, Anglican circles are fare more rarefied than anything Catholic.

If it presented the facts of the case, what is wrong with it and why the traditional Protestant criticism of everything Catholic, as though Protestant theologians, historians or sources were anything but unbiased, historical and accurate.

In Lutherans presentation of the small catechism of Martin Luther they still present his introduction where this guy is still making jibes at the Holy Father.

I think we have had enough of Luther and his excesses in this regard, and in the spirit of ecumenism, these Lutherans should clean up Luther’s act.

peace
 
Dear fiery,

What you responded to was a reference to Church Fathers teaching. Not necessarily my belief.

How is it that I am to blame for what they said?

The point is that human beings can make mistakes. If Catholics are willing to consider what their heroes of the faith have said as a whole, and over-look certain remarks against dogma,

Why is that same consideration not extended to those who are not members of the Catholic Church?

BTW, I never studied Luther. I was raised Catholic.
Ginger,

You are making a huge mistake here. The Church Fathers wrote voluminously. Most people on this site have not the availability, despite the Internet, of all the things they say.

Do you really think I care what Gregory of Nyssa had to say, and would it matter to me that he made a huge mistake about something Catholic. Absolutely not.

The Fathers are, as a group, part of the teaching Magisterium. They are far more believable when there are differences of opinion about a variety of issues. Their opinion as a group is important to us.

The thing to remember about any Catholic ‘teacher’ is what do they do when faced with what the Church (now) says about an issue. Take Predestination, as an example. There are schools of Catholic theology who hold differences of opinion, and the Holy See has told them it is okay to hold these differences, and not to accuse each other with heresy.

However, if the Church tomorrow were to settle the issue, then everyone would have to fall into line, and accept the final answer.
That’s the difference betweeen Luther, for example, and this situation we are talking about and these theologians… Luther screamed: “Non serviam”! when faced with “Exsurge, Domine”.
I will not bend! Well, he rightly then should have been excommunicated, and kicked out of the Church.

If he is okay with being outside the Church, well, fine. But a man as scrupulous as Martin Luther, he had to fear for his own salvation, despite all the Protestants telling us what a wonderful death he had.

peace
 
I agree, people do come up with some really crazy forms of BS on the internet and others read it and then it becomes gospel. I always investigate something I read and then take it to places to cross reference it against scholars at universities. unitypublishing.com is a good place to find info to research. Richard Salbato runs the site and he knows many people in the church around the world including Arch Bishops, Cardinals and people in the Vatican very intimately.
Please don’t mistake my passion for anger, I have a very soft sweet spot for Mother Mary, I feel a love for her and I am always trying to nurture it along further with her help.
God Bless:)
Fiery,

I’ve said before in this thread that I am not trying to defend Luther.

What I am trying to convey is that we should all take care to be honest and accurate.

Too many times people read something on the internet or elsewhere and assume it is true.

I have seen many quotes from Luther taken out of context and distorted. These people are not intentionally lying, they are just being careless. No matter what you think of Luther personally, it is wrong to repeat falsehoods and/ or distort the truth - even if you think it is probably true.

If you looked back, (which you won’t) you would see that fairly early in this thread I said that I believe Luther probably said those words, but we can’t know what he actually was saying without seeing it in its full context. Also, sometimes it helps to know what led up to the comments.

Luther made a dispensation - under narrow and specific circumstances for the taking of a second wife. I BELIEVE FIRMLY THAT HE WAS WRONG.

However, in this thread, Luther’s being wrong is not enough. Some have exaggerated and added to it. More quotes that ARE indeed false have been posted to further condemn Luther.

Isn’t the truth enough?

If I witness a man robbing a bank, I should tell the truth to the best of my recollection. If I start adding exaggerations and false statements, I will lose all credibility and justice will NOT be served.

Do you understand what I am saying? I don’t really care what you think of Luther he is nothing to me. But I do care about honesty, integrity and accuracy.
 
And what other (up-to-date) source for this situation is there?
I’m sure Martin Brecht’s three-volume biography of Luther talks about this. It’s also biased (in the other direction) but considerably more up-to-date.
If it is not dishonest, why is it biased?
Everything is biased. The CE was somewhat more so even than some writings of 100 years ago, and by and large the scholarly world today is less divided confessionally and so less biased, at least in these regards (not because we are superior in some way but because we keep each other accountable).

There is a big difference between dishonesty and bias.
Rarefied circles? I think Lutheran, Evangelical, Anglican circles are fare more rarefied than anything Catholic.
The Catholic circles that still rely heavily on the CE (mostly Internet conservatives) are more rarefied than any of the traditions you mention taken as a whole. Obviously Catholicism as a whole is much less so. However, good works of modern scholarship are accepted by people of all confessions.
If it presented the facts of the case, what is wrong with it
Nothing is wrong with the paragraph you cited. However, the whole article on Luther is riddled with contemptuous, loaded language that doesn’t give Protestants a lot of confidence in the Encyclopedia’s fairness. I have said several times on this thread that the accusation that Luther allowed bigamy in certain circumstances is correct. However, you seemed shocked that a Protestant would be generally dubious about the CE, and you alluded to it as “respected.” I almost never encounter it except on conservative Catholic websites. It’s not a source that is generally relied on in scholarly circles today, Catholic or Protestant, for general information about church history. There are many better sources for that.
and why the traditional Protestant criticism of everything Catholic, as though Protestant theologians, historians or sources were anything but unbiased, historical and accurate.
Well, *traditionally *people on both sides mistrusted people on the other, although to some extent scholars have been learning from each other ever since the Reformation. However, that’s irrelevant to my post. I would object equally (or perhaps even more so) to a Protestant confessional publication of that era being cited for the study of Catholicism. It’s not a Protestant/Catholic issue.
In Lutherans presentation of the small catechism of Martin Luther they still present his introduction where this guy is still making jibes at the Holy Father.
I think we have had enough of Luther and his excesses in this regard, and in the spirit of ecumenism, these Lutherans should clean up Luther’s act.
You’re comparing apples and oranges. Have I ever suggested that you should cut the anathemas out of the canons of Trent? The historical record is what it is. Cleaning it up will just let us forget our history, which we’re too prone to do anyway.

However, we don’t have to be prisoners of the past, and one way not to be is to refrain from citing traditional confessional polemic as if it were the Last Word on church history.

Edwin
 
I don’t see where it matters whether or not protestants have faith in what it says, like MGR says if it is true then it does not matter the context of what is said or not said. Your splitting hairs and it sounds like your more worried about being politically correct than worried about facts. Bottom line is Luther was a sad sorry wayward SOB. He was full of contemptuous and murderous ideas,which he successfully spread. That is why the reading material at the C.E. sounds loaded and contemptuous because the subject it relates to,said subject being Martin Luther was just that.
I’m sure Martin Brecht’s three-volume biography of Luther talks about this. It’s also biased (in the other direction) but considerably more up-to-date.

Everything is biased. The CE was somewhat more so even than some writings of 100 years ago, and by and large the scholarly world today is less divided confessionally and so less biased, at least in these regards (not because we are superior in some way but because we keep each other accountable).

There is a big difference between dishonesty and bias.

The Catholic circles that still rely heavily on the CE (mostly Internet conservatives) are more rarefied than any of the traditions you mention taken as a whole. Obviously Catholicism as a whole is much less so. However, good works of modern scholarship are accepted by people of all confessions.

Nothing is wrong with the paragraph you cited. However, the whole article on Luther is riddled with contemptuous, loaded language that doesn’t give Protestants a lot of confidence in the Encyclopedia’s fairness. I have said several times on this thread that the accusation that Luther allowed bigamy in certain circumstances is correct. However, you seemed shocked that a Protestant would be generally dubious about the CE, and you alluded to it as “respected.” I almost never encounter it except on conservative Catholic websites. It’s not a source that is generally relied on in scholarly circles today, Catholic or Protestant, for general information about church history. There are many better sources for that.

Well, *traditionally *people on both sides mistrusted people on the other, although to some extent scholars have been learning from each other ever since the Reformation. However, that’s irrelevant to my post. I would object equally (or perhaps even more so) to a Protestant confessional publication of that era being cited for the study of Catholicism. It’s not a Protestant/Catholic issue.

You’re comparing apples and oranges. Have I ever suggested that you should cut the anathemas out of the canons of Trent? The historical record is what it is. Cleaning it up will just let us forget our history, which we’re too prone to do anyway.

However, we don’t have to be prisoners of the past, and one way not to be is to refrain from citing traditional confessional polemic as if it were the Last Word on church history.

Edwin
 
I don’t see where it matters whether or not protestants have faith in what it says, like MGR says if it is true then it does not matter the context of what is said or not said.
I am not quarreling with that particular quote–I was responding to the general issue of Catholics quoting the CE as if this settled an issue.
Your splitting hairs and it sounds like your more worried about being politically correct than worried about facts.
Political correctness has nothing to do with it. You are just throwing slurs around.
Bottom line is Luther was a sad sorry wayward SOB. He was full of contemptuous and murderous ideas,which he successfully spread. That is why the reading material at the C.E. sounds loaded and contemptuous because the subject it relates to,said subject being Martin Luther was just that.
But equally intelligent people coming from different religious backgrounds do NOT come to this conclusion. That’s why we have a scholarly community–to provide some check on specific ideological biases.

Unfortunately, this does not check for biases shared by the whole contemporary academic community. I am not claiming that the peer-review process is perfect by any means. But it does do a good job of checking confessional bias.

Edwin
 
Fiery,

I’m glad we got this sorted out.

Have a great and blessed day!
 
I do not think bias is kept in check by any particular body or group. I do not see bias in the C.E. whether I am Catholic or not. Luther was and is either a very sad and tragic figure or he was evil. If he was mislead, I pity him and hope he was redeemed, but ultimately what he spoke no matter his true intentions was evil. That is all that can be said.
I do not intend to slur you Edwin, just commenting on what I felt I got from your post is all.
 
Brecht’s three volume work on Luther was originally in German, and I understand available in translation An editorial review says: “The reader is left with great admiration for Luther’s talents as a theologian, translator, and church builder.” If that is the sum of Brecht’s analysis of Luther, I can’t disagree more.

Luther was an Augustinian, and probably, according to some Catholic scholars, (Denifle, e.g.) had no knowledge of St. Thomas or the Scholastics. His knowledge of Greek was poor, and of Hebrew, negligible.

Church builder? Supposedly, he never intended to set up his own church, but ‘reform’ the Roman Catholic Church. How you can do that after being excommunicated, I just don’t know. Yeah, Brecht’s work may be scholarly, but it was certainly biased. You say that being biased is a fact of life. Maybe so, but I am uncomfortable with such a concept.

I don’t know that professional Catholic circles rely on the CE. It’s convenient, and for poor people like me, a necessity. About being ‘conservative’, that’s all in the definition. I always considered myself a liberal Catholic, but I accept the General Councils of the Church, and papal infallibility. I read Protestant historians as I do Catholic. I am accepting of both if they provide references for what they have to say.

“Nothing is wrong with the paragraph you cited. However, the whole article on Luther is riddled with contemptuous, loaded language that doesn’t give Protestants a lot of confidence in the Encyclopedia’s fairness.”

That’s not fair. I have said it before, Luther is easy to dislike and condemn. Talk about contemptuous, and loaded language, - this was Fr. Martin, par excellence. Reading as much Luther as you can get your hands on, a fair-minded person would be shocked. You say this is okay, fine. Judging by what Protestants have to say on this website, I don’t see them as very accepting about much, except Luther. We Catholics like our idols to be sainted.

If you read “Fiery”’s post after mine, you will pretty much get a sense that Catholics will return vitriolic to Luther, which is a small measure of the hatred he spewed against us, and the damage he has done to the Roman Church, founded by Jesus Christ.

Okay, if you want to go on about better sources being available, and it (CE) not being the best source for Catholics and Protestants, go ahead. I don’t live on a University campus or near a library, and I can’t afford to accumulate these expensive history books. I have several historical books, Catholic and Protestant alike. Nowadays, I start on the Internet to put me in the direction I need to go on any question.

I think you have a built in prejudice as an historian about any Enclyclopedia. By nature and necessity you prefer authographs, and more original sources. Why should any historian ‘respect’ an enclyclopedia?

We are not looking for ‘conservative’ outlooks; we are looking for the truth. The CE is available on the Internet, as is Wikipedia. They are not final stops on the journey for the truth (esp Wiki); they are just places to start, and they provide links to other sources.

You have not proved your case. Historians are biased, you say. But then you tell us: “refrain from citing traditional confessional polemic as if it were the Last Word on church history”.
Catholics find it difficult to believe that the across-the-board ‘diversity’ of Protestant sects has, as its root cause, the disaster that was Martin Luther. That this is not reflective in Protestant historians is part of the problem. That’s how we feel.

peace
 
So let it be Ginger. I am not afraid to live and die by my own sword and your remarks about Catholics being judgemental is a laugh because we seem to get protestants coming here all the time accusing us of being devil worshippers and cultists and all manner of insults. Your sola scriptura beliefs are what are wielded against Catholics stating that we make up rules and false church doctrines when in reality your faiths are incomplete because you do not embrace the entirety and truth of the Bible which proves itself not to be the only tool for teaching and knowing God.
I don’t hate you Ginger, I don’t even know you from eve, but I don’t have to go along with what you say, because you expound your beliefs from the mouth of Luther the Heretic, as being gospel truths.
Such charity towards us, Ginger! It is truly amazing. Thank God you are not like the rest of men (or women).

peace
 
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