Martin Luther vs. The Bible

[JonNC]

For your continued studies:

Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”? A Look at Justification By Faith Alone and Good Works in Luther’s Theology

Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It’s his style, and this statement is a perfect example. Luther doesn’t write analytical theology. He writes profound verbose sentiment driving one to think deeply.

Luther makes a strong hyperbolic comparison between “sinning boldly” and believing and rejoicing in Christ “even more boldly.” When assaulted by the fear and doubt of Christ’s love because of previous sins or the remnants of sin in one’s life, one is thrust back into the arms of Christ “on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins…”. Rather than promoting a license to sin by saying “sin boldly,” Luther’s point is to simply compare the sinner to the perfect savior. Left in our sins we will face nothing but death and damnation. By Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the world, we stand clothed in His righteousness, the recipients of His grace, no matter what we have done.

Regards,
James Swan

Thanks, James.
As usual, you say things much more concisely than I.
Jon

 

[JonNC]

CHESTERTONRULES:
Great question, although I bet we have different solutions.
I don’t think true unity is possible without a central teaching authority shared by all Christians.
Still, I’m open to other suggestions. Do you have some suggestions?

We may or may not have different solutions. Some of the recent ecumenical dialogues point to, I believe, the right approach.
You see, I’m an optimist. We can, with the leadership of the HS, overcome our differences.

How to do it is well above my knowledge or pay grade, but it won’t happen if one side demands the other “submit”. It will take honest, open dialogue, prayer, and more prayer.
Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Great question, although I bet we have different solutions.
I don’t think true unity is possible without a central teaching authority shared by all Christians.
Still, I’m open to other suggestions. Do you have some suggestions?

We may or may not have different solutions. Some of the recent ecumenical dialogues point to, I believe, the right approach.
You see, I’m an optimist. We can, with the leadership of the HS, overcome our differences.

How to do it is well above my knowledge or pay grade, but it won’t happen if one side demands the other “submit”. It will take honest, open dialogue, prayer, and more prayer.
Jon

I haven’t heard any demands for submission, just arguments for agreement.

 

[JonNC]

We may or may not have different solutions. Some of the recent ecumenical dialogues point to, I believe, the right approach.
You see, I’m an optimist. We can, with the leadership of the HS, overcome our differences.

How to do it is well above my knowledge or pay grade, but it won’t happen if one side demands the other “submit”. It will take honest, open dialogue, prayer, and more prayer.
Jon

I haven’t heard any demands for submission, just arguments for agreement.

So, other than the obvious (the creeds, etc), where do we agree, to start with?
Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I haven’t heard any demands for submission, just arguments for agreement.

So, other than the obvious (the creeds, etc), where do we agree, to start with?
Jon

Luther and many Lutherans believe like Catholics in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Obviously, we believe that Jesus is the son of God and that only by his grace is it possible for us to be saved.

Lutherans and Catholics believe that the bible is the word of God.

I’m not sure of the Lutheran position on the communion of Saints, but I know Luther held a devotion to Mary and believed in intercessory prayer.

Both Lutherans and Catholics acknowledge and promote infant baptism.

Lutherans and Catholics believe in the value of some form of verbal confession before men.

Can you think of others?

 

[JonNC]

=CHESTERTONRULES;4338587]
Luther and many Lutherans believe like Catholics in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

We have some differences when it comes to Transubstantiation, but, yes, we do hold to the real presence.

Obviously, we believe that Jesus is the son of God and that only by his grace is it possible for us to be saved.
Lutherans and Catholics believe that the bible is the word of God.
I’m not sure of the Lutheran position on the communion of Saints,

True

but I know Luther held a devotion to Mary and believed in intercessory prayer.

Luterhans do not practice intercession of the Saints or the BVM. We do believe the Church Triumphant prayers for us, The Church Militant, though in a general way.

Both Lutherans and Catholics acknowledge and promote infant baptism.

True, as well as what baptism does generally.

Lutherans and Catholics believe in the value of some form of verbal confession before men.

While we agree in this area, the Catholic church does not recognize the validity of our clergy, though we recognize yours. This applies to the Eucharist, as well.

Can you think of others?

We have general agreement (there may be small differences, but I’m not a theologian so I’m kind of relying on the Augsburg Confession ans the Confutation) about:

1. original sin
2. The cause of sin
3. End times belief
4. We agree on the idea that we are justified by grace through faith (note I didn’t put the word “alone” here), but have a major difference on the role of good works. This is perhaps still the single most important sticking point for us. We do agree, however, that works are important.

Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

We have some differences when it comes to Transubstantiation, but, yes, we do hold to the real presence.

True

Luterhans do not practice intercession of the Saints or the BVM. We do believe the Church Triumphant prayers for us, The Church Militant, though in a general way.

True, as well as what baptism does generally.

While we agree in this area, the Catholic church does not recognize the validity of our clergy, though we recognize yours. This applies to the Eucharist, as well.

We have general agreement (there may be small differences, but I’m not a theologian so I’m kind of relying on the Augsburg Confession ans the Confutation) about:

1. original sin
2. The cause of sin
3. End times belief
4. We agree on the idea that we are justified by grace through faith (note I didn’t put the word “alone” here), but have a major difference on the role of good works. This is perhaps still the single most important sticking point for us. We do agree, however, that works are important.

Jon

Far more agreements than disagreements!

What do you think is different from the Lutheran position and the Catholic position on the role of good works?

 

[JonNC]

Far more agreements than disagreements!

What do you think is different from the Lutheran position and the Catholic position on the role of good works?

As you know, Lutherans say we are justified by grace through faith in Christ. We do not mix, so to speak, justification with sanctification. Good works are evidence of our judtification, the good fruits of the justified, adding to our growth in grace. While we say that good works are necessary, we claim no merit in them, in terms of our justification.

1. That good works certainly and without doubt follow true faith, if it is not a dead, but a living faith, as fruits of a good tree.

7] 2. We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4:6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.

8] 3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

As you know, Lutherans say we are justified by grace through faith in Christ. We do not mix, so to speak, justification with sanctification. Good works are evidence of our judtification, the good fruits of the justified, adding to our growth in grace. While we say that good works are necessary, we claim no merit in them, in terms of our justification.

Jon

From the catechism.

I think you’ll agree with all of this:

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

But I’m not sure about this part. What is your opinion of this:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

 

[JonNC]

From the catechism.

I think you’ll agree with all of this:

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

But I’m not sure about this part. What is your opinion of this:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

In 1999, the notions of infused vs. imputed grace are curious to me, but in general I read no issues of concern.

In 2000, I’m unclear what this means, but I’ll say Lutherans belief we lack the ability to know and love him, until the HS comes into our hearts. Otherwise, it seems reasonable.

Jon

 

[RubenZ]

Bah Martin Luther is just some person who went against what Christ established. We shouldn’t put much thought into him.

 

[Steadfast]

Bah Martin Luther is just some person who went against what Christ established. We shouldn’t put much thought into him.

Nice.

 

[JonNC]

Bah Martin Luther is just some person who went against what Christ established. We shouldn’t put much thought into him.

So, do you believe it is wrong to try to come to terms with our differences? Do you believe the Catholic Church is wrong to participate in ecumenical dialogue? Luther has been dead these nearly 500 years now, and so has Leo X. But there are millions of Lutherans and over a billion Catholics here, now. And many of us pray for unity.

Jon

 

[CWBetts]

So, do you believe it is wrong to try to come to terms with our differences? Do you believe the Catholic Church is wrong to participate in ecumenical dialogue? Luther has been dead these nearly 500 years now, and so has Leo X. But there are millions of Lutherans and over a billion Catholics here, now. And many of us pray for unity.

Jon

Unity is easy. Reject the heresies of Luther.

 

[JonNC]

Unity is easy. Reject the heresies of Luther.

And I could say, reject the errors of Rome, and we’re back where we started. Pope JP II knew it isn’t just that easy. I will not try to read your heart, but in general terms, there are Catholics who say this who have no interest in unity, and there are Lutherans who say this who are satisfied with schism and separation.
I accept neither position.

Jon

 

[Steadfast]

It’s very easy to say things like this, to cavalierly dismiss your interlocutors and assume superiority and correctness.

It’s something anyone can do.

Anyone.

What is much harder is behaving charitably and amicably with those with whom you disagree for the sake of peace and love in the Body of Christ.

 

[CWBetts]

Well considering none of Luther’s Five Solas can be backed up by Scripture…

 

[Steadfast]

Well considering none of Luther’s Five Solas can be backed up by Scripture…

Well considering that none of the RCC’s recent marian Dogmas can be backed up by Scripture…

See how this works, asinus?

 

[CWBetts]

The Raoman Catholic Church accepts the validity of Tradition, wheras Sola Scriptura demands that only Scripture be used, which interestingly enough, can’t be found in scripture. Simply put, Catholics are not limited to defending doctrine with Scripture alone. I am just pointing out that Protestantism can’t be defended using its self-imposed limitations. The way I see it, it is up to you to defend the 5 Solas using Scripture alone, which, as i said, can’t be done.

 

[JonNC]

[Originally Posted by CWBetts
Well considering none of Luther’s Five Solas can be backed up by Scripture…

Steadfast Quote:
Well considering that none of the RCC’s recent marian Dogmas can be backed up by Scripture…

Distracted posted in another thread today’s scripture reading thus:

Ephesians 4
Brothers and Sisters: I, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have recieved, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

striving to preserve the unity of the Spirit

Jon
[/quote]