Martin Luther vs. The Bible

[LutheranDK]

He seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Let me show you the Greek text:
“ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία φοβερὰ δέ τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως καὶ πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους”

The operative word here is “ἁμαρτανόντων” (transscribed: “hamartanontån”).
Fellow theologians that might be in here will confirm that we are dealing with a present principle here. The “present” form signifies not any one act of sin (for that, the author of Hebrews would have used the aorist), but a continuous, constant sin - id est: LIVING in sin.
And LIVING in sin is not the same as committing sin.

And btw, I second the replies already given to you. Why do you insist on trying to give an impression of RCs as ignorant and arrogant, when there are great people here that proves the opposite?

 

[JonNC]

sola_scriptura;4317780:

QUOTE]

Good effort!

Luther denied that a man’s sins could lead him to Hell.

Who would like this dogma propagated?

I will treat this with charity, as best I can, by saying that this reflects, hopefully not hostility, but instead a lack of knowledge of Luther’s beliefs. There are protestants that, without understanding, claim that Catholics worship the BVM. They are as wrong as you.
I would encourage you to look into what Luther believed. A start might be here.
www.bookofconcord.org

Catholics and Lutherans have a number of things we disagree on. Let’s both make sure we are disagreeing with what the other actually believes.

Jon

 

[sola_scriptura]

CHESTERTONRULES;4317988:

I will treat this with charity, as best I can, by saying that this reflects, hopefully not hostility, but instead a lack of knowledge of Luther’s beliefs. There are protestants that, without understanding, claim that Catholics worship the BVM. They are as wrong as you.
I would encourage you to look into what Luther believed. A start might be here.
www.bookofconcord.org

Catholics and Lutherans have a number of things we disagree on. Let’s both make sure we are disagreeing with what the other actually believes.

Jon

I’m well aware of Martin Luther’s views and agree with the vast majority of them. I’m personally a Calvinist and have no intention of straying from the reformed tradition. However, I have great respect and admiration for all the Magisterial Reformers.

While I’m always interested in hearing the Catholic point of view, I would never be Catholic. The great doctrines of men like John Calvin and Martin Luther are part of my fiber. I understand scripture in the same way they do.

It’s not because I worship these men – since protestants simply don’t worship men, it’s about the fact that there can only be one right answer. Anyway, the discussions on this board are truly harsh in character. I was myself chastised a few times for uncharitable comments on this board, but the fact is it this board simply doesn’t lend itself to kind mannered ecumenical relations. As for me – I’ll probably not be posting much here anymore.

The protestant boards I blog on are much more scholastic in character & the sort of mud slinging that goes on here simply doesn’t occur there (and yes we even have a few Catholics). Anyway …

 

[sola_scriptura]

CHESTERTONRULES;4317988:

Again you persist with the hateful Catholic spin doctoring. But this is what we have come to expect from you. Having shown yourself a spiteful child when it comes to Calvinism you turn your biased attention to Luther.

Here is what Luther really believed:

Luther believed that the sacrifice of Christ for sinners was far greater than all their sins, so much so that even the worst sinner need fear nothing if he be in Christ.

and essentially he was right.

In short, Luther believed that we have a real

Savior Who really saves us from real sins without any help from us.

Luther – right again

What is unbiblical about this?

See Romans 8,

I don’t know – why don’t you tell me? Romans 8 won’t help you that’s for sure.

I won’t address the issue of context wrt his letter to Melachthon because others (Edwin and Peter most notably) have already said everything that needs to be said.

I probably won’t care anyway … so you’re right, why waste your time

 

[sola_scriptura]

sola_scriptura;4317780:

QUOTE]

Good effort!

Luther denied that a man’s sins could lead him to Hell.

Who would like this dogma propagated?

lost in translation huh?

 

[CWBetts]

The truth of the solas of the Protestant Reformation does not stand or fall on what Martin Luther believed.

There is no truth in the solas whatsoever. They are invented doctrines, believed and practiced by no one before Martin Luther came along. The practice of inventing new doctrines seems to be pathalogical among Protestants, as every so often a new “teaching” pops up that cannot be supported with Scriptures or Holy Tradition. Examples: Holy Communion is symbolic, no communion with the Saints, Baptism my immersion only, the Rapture.
The List goes on and on.

 

[CWBetts]

Here’s another tidbit about Martin Luther:
On his deathbed he called for a priest. That’s right. Luther never wanted to start a new church, he wanted to resolve some of the problems in the True Church at that time, such as the abuse of indulgences. The truly important thing is that on his deathbed he wanted to make things right with Christ.

 

[sandusky]

LutheranDK:

Let me show you the Greek text:
“ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία φοβερὰ δέ τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως καὶ πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους”

The operative word here is “ἁμαρτανόντων” (transscribed: “hamartanontån”).
Fellow theologians that might be in here will confirm that we are dealing with a present principle here. The “present” form signifies not any one act of sin (for that, the author of Hebrews would have used the aorist), but a continuous, constant sin - id est: LIVING in sin.
And LIVING in sin is not the same as committing sin.

It is indeed a present, active, participle; another key word is ὑπεναντίους (hupernantios), or opposers who are hostile; hostile to what? To the Gospel.

Furthermore, the initial statement in v26 is conditional (ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν), based upon continuously sinning. The passage continues through a litany of other necessary conditions, and ends in v39 with this statement:**Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.**

 

[SIA]

The quotes provided are clear. You didn’t even provide a single quote from Luther, not that I doubt your statement.

Luther was driven by pride and arrogance and this can be clearly demonstrated from his writings.

He had no problem eliminating books of the bible or changing words if HE deemed it to be correct.

I can provide multiple additional quotes that are accurate and instructive in this regard.

Why does truth annoy you?

What you provided was taken completely out of context and therefore totally distorted Luther’s beliefs and teachings. What you posted here is garbage. I too will not choose to engage in conversation with you on the grounds that your knowledge of Luther appears to be minimal.

 

[Steadfast]

Here’s another tidbit about Martin Luther:
On his deathbed he called for a priest. That’s right. Luther never wanted to start a new church, he wanted to resolve some of the problems in the True Church at that time, such as the abuse of indulgences. The truly important thing is that on his deathbed he wanted to make things right with Christ.

You should know that Fr. O’Hare has been thoroughly debunked.

 

[SIA]

sola_scriptura;4317780:

QUOTE]

Good effort!

Luther denied that a man’s sins could lead him to Hell.

Who would like this dogma propagated?

That’s not what he said and you know it.

 

[JonNC]

There is no truth in the solas whatsoever. They are invented doctrines, believed and practiced by no one before Martin Luther came along. The practice of inventing new doctrines seems to be pathalogical among Protestants, as every so often a new “teaching” pops up that cannot be supported with Scriptures or Holy Tradition.** Examples: Holy Communion is symbolic, no communion with the Saints, Baptism my immersion only, the Rapture.**
The List goes on and on.

None supported by Luther. That you disagree with Luther is fine. C-Rules was disagreeing with something Luther never taught.
Jon

 

[CWBetts]

You should know that Fr. O’Hare has been thoroughly debunked.

No doubt by a Lutheran scholar.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4317988:

That’s not what he said and you know it.

Feel free to describe his words more accurately:

Here’s how I described them:

Luther denied that a man’s sins could lead him to Hell.

Here’s what Luther said:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

I’m not making this up.

If you get a different understanding from this statement, please let me know what it is.

 

[CWBetts]

SIA;4322301:

Feel free to describe his words more accurately:

Here’s how I described them:

Here’s what Luther said:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

I’m not making this up.

If you get a different understanding from this statement, please let me know what it is.

I believe what luther meant here is if you are “saved” you can pretty much do what you want…no repentance required. No wonder people like him.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4322758:

I believe what luther meant here is if you are “saved” you can pretty much do what you want…no repentance required. No wonder people like him.

I agree with your assessment.

:tiphat:

 

[Steadfast]

No doubt by a Lutheran scholar.

Here’s what happened:

Luther lay dying, he called for his friend John Bugenhagen who had been a priest and was now a Evangelical minister.

Interestingly, at the time, the nascent Evangelical Church had not given the office any particular name. Ministers of the Gospel were called priests as they had been for centuries.

So, Luther called for his friend and confidant John Bugenhagen who happened to be a “priest”.

In the hands of propagandists and purveyors of calumny (and O’Hare is only a fairly recent example) the story came to be told that he died calling for a priest…

See how that works?

And now you have repeated a lie, violating the command against bearing false witness.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And now you have repeated a lie, violating the command against bearing false witness.

Back to the topic at hand.

Is this accurate?

Feel free to describe his words more accurately:

Here’s how I described them:

Quote:
Luther denied that a man’s sins could lead him to Hell.

Here’s what Luther said:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

I’m not making this up.

If you get a different understanding from this statement, please let me know what it is.

 

[CWBetts]

I will be checking my sources later this week, and by my estimation, if I am wrong, then I have conveyed information I held to be true, a venial sin, and an error I will correct. One piece of advice: before you go around calling people liars ans whatnot, remeber what our Lord said: Let who among you who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[sandusky]

Martin Luther taught:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

The Facts About Luther.