Martin Luther

[TertiumQuid]

Mrs P:

I read somewhere that Martin Luther was devoted to Our Lady. Does anyone know where I can find more information on this topic?

Hi Mrs. P,

I don’t think Martin Luther was “devoted to our lady”, especially not in the Roman Catholic sense. See:

ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm

and also:

ntrmin.org/Respone%20to%20Armstrong%20on%20Luther%20and%20Mary.htm

Take Care,
James Swan

 

[katherine2]

excellent answer. We are much closer than we imagine. Let us pray for unity.

 

[Jade]

Dear Crazyage3,

“Do you believe you are eating the flesh literally? How does it become this without transubstantiation?”

As a former Lutheran, it is my understanding that no, one does not comsume the Flesh literally. As was stated before, Christ is ‘in, with and around’ the elements of bread and wine, but the species themselves do not change. But Christ is ‘comsumed’ in a way. He enters in a special way, when one takes a lutheran commuion.

“And rather than Martin Luther breaking away from the Church why didnt he continue being a priest in the Catholic church but ignore the wicked ways of others?”

It is my understanding that Luther never thought of himself as anything BUT Catholic. And, I too have heard that he was furious when he learned that his followers were considered non Catholic. It was never his intent to break away from the Catholic Church, he just didn’t agree with some things that the Church was doing at the time.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

So now it comes down to a lesser question between Lutherans and Catholics. What is lost during the Mass in the bread and wine?

I don’t think this is the right way to put this question. But, please, let me ask another question?

What is lost if you die today? Well, your family and friends will feel that they have lost you. But are you really lost? No, you are NOT! Even if your family and friends miss your existence between them, you still exist. Your soul exist in Heaven! Your family is going to bury your body. Is it lost? Well, temporary you have to be without it. But at the last day of this world, you will get it back renewed. Your body will then have new qualities. Jesus showed us this after his resurrection from the dead. He could walk through walls among others. We don’t ask what He had lost, be look at what he had received for himself and for us.

If you are to ask the question ”what was lost”, the answer has to be: Death was lost. Was something wun? Yes, eternal life for every person who want to believe in the change (eternal life in Christ).

When we die, we will have to wait to Judgmentday to have our renewed bodies (not lost bodies but changed to the better bodies) back. Jesus already has his ”changed to the better body” with new qualities.

The changed bread in the Eucarist, hasn’t lost anything, it is changed from one condition to another and better condition, from bread that can rot to flesh that are cabable of lasting forever. What it looks like is up to God.

** ” Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe” (John 20:29 NRSV-Bible).**

**The transubstantiation is a mystery. We have to believe without to see … **

Why can it be that there are no lutheran Eucaristic miracles?

One of the catholic Eucaristic miracles is about changed Hosts (consecrated Hosts) that didn’t rot after 250 years. Some broke into a Church of St. Francis in Sienna and stole the golden ciborium from the Tabernacle. The golden ciborium contained consecrated Hosts. When the Hosts were found they were looked upon once a year, and they never showed any sign of decomposion.

If there had been bread back in the concecrated Hosts, the bread would have decayed and there would have been holes in the concecrated Hosts.

If you want to read the whole story about the stolen concecrated Hosts that never roted, go here:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/siena.html

God bless!

G.Grace

 

[Shibboleth]

Gratias Grace:

I don’t think this is the right way to put this question. But, please, let me ask another question?

What is lost if you die today? Well, your family and friends will feel that they have lost you. But are you really lost? No, you are NOT! Even if your family and friends miss your existence between them, you still exist. Your soul exist in Heaven! Your family is going to bury your body. Is it lost? Well, temporary you have to be without it. But at the last day of this world, you will get it back renewed. Your body will then have new qualities. Jesus showed us this after his resurrection from the dead. He could walk through walls among others. We don’t ask what He had lost, be look at what he had received for himself and for us.

If you are to ask the question ”what was lost”, the answer has to be: Death was lost. Was something wun? Yes, eternal life for every person who want to believe in the change (eternal life in Christ).

When we die, we will have to wait to Judgmentday to have our renewed bodies (not lost bodies but changed to the better bodies) back. Jesus already has his ”changed to the better body” with new qualities.

The changed bread in the Eucarist, hasn’t lost anything, it is changed from one condition to another and better condition, from bread that can rot to flesh that are cabable of lasting forever. What it looks like is up to God.

** ” Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe” (John 20:29 NRSV-Bible).**

**The transubstantiation is a mystery. We have to believe without to see … **

Why can it be that there are no lutheran Eucaristic miracles?

One of the catholic Eucaristic miracles is about changed Hosts (consecrated Hosts) that didn’t rot after 250 years. Some broke into a Church of St. Francis in Sienna and stole the golden ciborium from the Tabernacle. The golden ciborium contained consecrated Hosts. When the Hosts were found they were looked upon once a year, and they never showed any sign of decomposion.

If there had been bread back in the concecrated Hosts, the bread would have decayed and there would have been holes in the concecrated Hosts.

If you want to read the whole story about the stolen concecrated Hosts that never roted, go here:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/siena.html

God bless!

G.Grace

I am not arguing that nothing is gained in the bread and wine. It most certainly has gained and become the body and blood of Christ. My argument is simply that what constitutes bread and wine one this realm has not left.

The particles have not left the bread or rearranged. They still exist and therefore so does the bread and wine. Humans have soul that can be removed from their body and replaced in their body – so some real changes can go on underneath of a human that cannot be witnessed. Bread does not have a soul or essence that can be removed it is what it is…

Jesus can enter into the bread just as my soul can enter and leave my body. But that does not mean that my body did not exist when I was not in it and it did not cease to be once I entered it again. Same situation with the host…

As far as Eucharistic Miracles there have been reports by Luther churches of bleeding hosts. Is the Catholic Church going to find these to be miracles? Highly doubtful because the Catholic Church has professed that Lutherans have a broken line of succession and cannot actually perform the Sacrament of the Mass. If God is not present in the bread and wine why would it bleed? Also, why on this green Earth would a Lutheran Church want to call the Catholic Church to look into such matters?

As far as the Eucharist being incorruptible, all of the Eucharist is consumed at the end of the Mass at a Lutheran Service. We are not going to fail to consume the Eucharist just to appease our curiosity.

Either way it all comes down to faith. Would the Catholic Eucharist be any less a miracle if none of what you listed would not have happened? OF course not…

Anyways here is a good Catholic article that will give you some ammunition to use against me but will also show you that visible miracles are not necessary or proof.

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ123.HTM#V.%20Why%20Can’t%20Science%20Prove%20That%20the%20Consecrated

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

Anyways here is a good Catholic article that will give you some ammunition to use against me but will also show you that visible miracles are not necessary or proof.

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ123.HTM#V.%20Why%20Can’t%20Science%20Prove%20That%20the%20Consecrated

Thank you for the article, Shibboleth!

As a former lutheran, now catholic, I can tell you that catholics don’t **have to ** believe in the Eucaristic miracles. I mentioned them only to give some “food for thought”. Bread rot. Jesus Christ dosn’t!!!

It is a scandal that the consequence of what should have been a reformation inside the Catholic Church became a revolution that made a split in Church. This scandal we must try to repair, - do ecomenical work according to the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. Jesus prayed: “that they may all be one (John 17:21)”.

It’s important that we don’t hurry up and make new mistakes in our efforts to repair what our forefathers on both sides made wrong. The future Churchgoers are not to worry about if the Host they recieve in the Communion really is consecrated (the transubstantiation)!!!

I don’t think it is the different explanation about the presence of Jesus in the lutheran Host that worries catholics most.

It is that lutherans and catholics don’t agree on the Mass as a sacrifice. Lutherans don’t see the Mass as a sacrifice. Catholics **do see ** it that way. :bowdown2: For catholics the Mass will loose its meaning if you denie the importance of the sacrificial character of the Mass!

The problem with the missing apostolic succession of the lutheran priests is another topic that has to be solved. So is also the problem with the lutheran woman priests. According to the catholic church the 12 apostles were men, and therfore prists have to be men!!!

Blessings!

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

As far as the Eucharist being incorruptible, all of the Eucharist is consumed at the end of the Mass at a Lutheran Service. We are not going to fail to consume the Eucharist just to appease our curiosity.

Some comments: In a together-Mass between lutherans and catholics, celebrated outside, some consecrated Hosts of both lutherans and catholics blow off the table. (It was windy). The catholic priests run after the consecrated Hosts and ate them (as they are supposed to do). The lutheran priests stepped on theirs.

Why would the lutheran priests do so if Jesus was real present in the Host? Does this mean that lutherans don’t worship Jesus so much as catholics do? Isn’t Jesus HOLY for lutherans?



G.Grace

 

[crazyage3]

Jade:

Dear Crazyage3,

“Do you believe you are eating the flesh literally? How does it become this without transubstantiation?”

As a former Lutheran, it is my understanding that no, one does not comsume the Flesh literally. As was stated before, Christ is ‘in, with and around’ the elements of bread and wine, but the species themselves do not change. But Christ is ‘comsumed’ in a way. He enters in a special way, when one takes a lutheran commuion.

“And rather than Martin Luther breaking away from the Church why didnt he continue being a priest in the Catholic church but ignore the wicked ways of others?”

It is my understanding that Luther never thought of himself as anything BUT Catholic. And, I too have heard that he was furious when he learned that his followers were considered non Catholic. It was never his intent to break away from the Catholic Church, he just didn’t agree with some things that the Church was doing at the time.

I know this! So what is the rationalization for starting a new church?

 

[Shibboleth]

Gratias Grace:

Some comments: In a together-Mass between lutherans and catholics, celebrated outside, some consecrated Hosts of both lutherans and catholics blow off the table. (It was windy). The catholic priests run after the consecrated Hosts and ate them (as they are supposed to do). The lutheran priests stepped on theirs.

Why would the lutheran priests do so if Jesus was real present in the Host? Does this mean that lutherans don’t worship Jesus so much as catholics do? Isn’t Jesus HOLY for lutherans?



G.Grace

Are all Catholic Priests child molesters?

 

[katherine2]

Gratias Grace:

Some comments: In a together-Mass between lutherans and catholics, celebrated outside, some consecrated Hosts of both lutherans and catholics blow off the table. (It was windy). The catholic priests run after the consecrated Hosts and ate them (as they are supposed to do). The lutheran priests stepped on theirs.

Why would the lutheran priests do so if Jesus was real present in the Host? Does this mean that lutherans don’t worship Jesus so much as catholics do? Isn’t Jesus HOLY for lutherans?



G.Grace

You must admire the devotion to the Eucharist of these Catholic priests concelebrating with Lutheran pastors.

:whacky:

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

Are all Catholic Priests child molesters?

Sorry, my friend, this is off the topic for this tread!

I asked you questions about the Eucarist and how lutheran priests look upon the Host were Jesus is supposed to be present. Your answer is not an answer to the question!

I will not continue your digression and ask if all lutheran priests are childmolesters. I will only remind you about the fact that misuse of power is **not ** a Catholic Faith thing. It is always sad when someone with a high position misuse trust. That is true if the misuse is in a church, in a public school, in a hospital, in the jurists office or in …

Let us stay on topic, please! The topic was, as far as I know, any differences between lutherans and catholics in how we look upon the Eucarist.

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

katherine2:

You must admire the devotion to the Eucharist of these Catholic priests concelebrating with Lutheran pastors.

:whacky:

I admire the will **to try ** to go on the road to unity!

G.Grace

 

[Shibboleth]

Gratias Grace:

Sorry, my friend, this is off the topic for this tread!

I asked you questions about the Eucarist and how lutheran priests look upon the Host were Jesus is supposed to be present. Your answer is not an answer to the question!

I will not continue your digression and ask if all lutheran priests are childmolesters. I will only remind you about the fact that misuse of power is **not ** a Catholic Faith thing. It is always sad when someone with a high position misuse trust. That is true if the misuse is in a church, in a public school, in a hospital, in the jurists office or in …

Let us stay on topic, please! The topic was, as far as I know, any differences between lutherans and catholics in how we look upon the Eucarist.

G.Grace

My point is that this was an abuse by Lutheran Priests and not reflective of the whole of Lutheran theology.

The Catholic Priests should be comended and the Lutheran Pastors should be scolded.

 

[Tlaloc]

I can’t believe entire faiths have hissy fits over freaking crackers. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Shibboleth]

Tlaloc:

I can’t believe entire faiths have hissy fits over freaking crackers. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

Maybe if you thought of it as someone throwing dirt on a Buddhist’s sand art design that they have spent 1000 hours creating, or someone spitting on the temple at Mecca, or someone taking a hammer and chisel to Stonehenge, or someone defecating on Mahatma Gandhi’s grave, or someone burning down a totem pole, etc…

As the Body and Blood of Christ this is what it would mean to me and more if I saw a Pastor stomping on the Eucharist. To me it is not just crackers, please be understanding of that fact.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Gratias Grace:

Some comments: In a together-Mass between lutherans and catholics, celebrated outside, some consecrated Hosts of both lutherans and catholics blow off the table.
G.Grace

WOW! I’ve never heard of a Catholic/Lutheran concelebration! Where and when did this take place?

God bless,

Anna

 

[Tlaloc]

Shibboleth:

Maybe if you thought of it as someone throwing dirt on a Buddhist’s sand art design that they have spent 1000 hours creating, or someone spitting on the temple at Mecca, or someone taking a hammer and chisel to Stonehenge, or someone defecating on Mahatma Gandhi’s grave, or someone burning down a totem pole, etc…

As the Body and Blood of Christ this is what it would mean to me and more if I saw a Pastor stomping on the Eucharist. To me it is not just crackers, please be understanding of that fact.

The point is you’re getting caught up in details. Unlike taking a hammer to stone henge that cracker is going to either be eaten or thrown out sooner or later. Its not around to stay,

You believe in Transubstantiation. Fine. Have fun. But thats about the most minor tiny detail of Christianity you can possibly imagine. Its far from the real point. The point was pretty simple: “Hey why not all be nice to each other?” That’s it. Everything else is just the dressing. To violate the point in order to quibble about the extraneous extra details is pretty self defeating.

 

[Tlaloc]

Mrs P:

I read somewhere that Martin Luther was devoted to Our Lady. Does anyone know where I can find more information on this topic?

by the way getting back to the main point this site is quite good for finding information on a large variety of religions:

religioustolerance.org

It’s not the best layout, but a great resource.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Anna Elizabeth:

WOW! I’ve never heard of a Catholic/Lutheran concelebration! Where and when did this take place?

God bless,

Anna

Dear Anna!

There were more “celebrating-together-Masses” some years ago then there are now. A Mass celebrated together among catholics and luthereans means a Mass were the priests cooperate about talking about the same topic from the Bible, and were all the people gathering together sing the same songs, pray the same prayers, say the Creed together, but split in two groups when it is time for the Eucaristic meal.

Since the luterans don’t believe in Transubstantiation, lutherans are not allowed to participate in the catholic Eucarist. Catholics are not allowed to participate in the lutheran Euraristic Consubstantiation.

Ask your priest were and when the next “lutheran-catholic-Mass” will be held near you if you are a christian and want to participate.

God bless!

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

My point is that this was an abuse by Lutheran Priests and not reflective of the whole of Lutheran theology.

The Catholic Priests should be comended and the Lutheran Pastors should be scolded.

OK, Shibboleth, but you have not commented about the differences that have to be solved among lutherans and catholics in the future if we some day shall make the Eucarist **one meal ** that we can participate in together. I put it this way in my post (post nr.26 on this thread):
Gratias Grace:

I don’t think it is the different explanation about the presence of Jesus in the lutheran Host that worries catholics most.

It is that lutherans and catholics don’t agree on the Mass as a sacrifice. Lutherans don’t see the Mass as a sacrifice. Catholics **do see ** it that way. :bowdown2: For catholics the Mass will loose its meaning if you denie the importance of the sacrificial character of the Mass!

The problem with the missing apostolic succession of the lutheran priests is another topic that has to be solved. So is also the problem with the lutheran woman priests. According to the catholic church the 12 apostles were men, and therfore prists have to be men!!!

Blessings!

G.Grace